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Yeah, it seems in their character they are very much like that

Kharn might be a sociopathic, psychotic, murderous rage fiend on the outside, but he's really a great guy to be with!

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kharn

Just for the record, a lot of us autistics prefer to be called "neurodiverse" rather than say we have a "mental disorder". Think of it like our brains running a Mac operating system where as most people's run a Windows operating system.
"Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish based on how well it can climb a tree it will spend its whole life thinking it's stupid." - Albert Einstein

 yeri wrote:
Just for the record, a lot of us autistics prefer to be called "neurodiverse" rather than say we have a "mental disorder". Think of it like our brains running a Mac operating system where as most people's run a Windows operating system.
"Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish based on how well it can climb a tree it will spend its whole life thinking it's stupid." - Albert Einstein

QFT.

Everyone is different.

Practically everyone has some form of "insanity" or disorder. Everyone's brains work differently - a person could be a mathematical genius, but have no grasp of language. Another could be a physical genius (move in intelligent ways, in order to fight better, or traverse obstacles that would defeat other people), and have no understanding of numbers.
etc.

The way I've seen The Lion, is that he's basically 40k's version of Greg House / Sherlock Holmes, he needs his Wilson / Watson to stay grounded in the human world. - AKA Luther. And the reason that the Dark Angels went so far off the rails was due to him breaking this connection by sending Luther back to Caliban.

It might have been the voice used in Prince of Crows, but I definitely got the impression that Sevetar was inspired by the Joker, except having him as the buddy of Space Batman instead of an enemy.

The thing is, one of the biggest and most intriguing things about Astartes (IMO) is that they have sacrificed their humanity to become Humanity's greatest defenders. However, since they're the protagonists of most stories, you want your audience to sympathise (or is it empathise?) with them so writing something truly "alien" doesn't tend to work, or needs a truly bloody brilliant author. So, instead a good BL author may look elsewhere for ideas.

Of course, a bad black library author would just make them act like normal blokes in power armour, which isn't exactly an uncommon occurrence.

Darthslowe wrote:
My two youngest brothers are autistic. What the OP is describing is called an autistic savant, which is characterized by having some sort of exceptional memory or mathematical ability. The problem with trying to say that Kharn is autistic and is a combat savant is that one of the strongest indicators of autism is an inherent clumsiness. People with autism (those that actually have it, not those that are misdiagnosed) are horrifyingly clumsy. It's bad enough that Mom recently replaced ALL of her glasses and plates with plastic. Things that you or I find simple to do (like running) are nearly impossible feats for the autistic. So, no Kharn is not autistic. His hatred of human contact and lack of recognizable emotions are more indicative of sociopathy than anything.

Not necessarily. See Aspergers syndrome. These days it isn't a real syndrome as it's been merged into high functioning Autism but they are subtly different, just not enough to for a practical diagnosis.

The big running theme with Autism is that it varies massively from case to case with only a few reoccurring themes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course we ignore this total and utterly untrue fallacy that wargamers are often Aspergic which totally doesn't explain the inspiration behind SMs.

That was sarcasm.

Not necessarily. See Aspergers syndrome. These days it isn't a real syndrome as it's been merged into high functioning Autism but they are subtly different, just not enough to for a practical diagnosis.

I can explain that, it's more a political thing than a mental health thing. Aspies were being denied Autism benefits because their diagnosis was "Asperger's Syndrome" and not "Autism". I know I almost had to go to court because my public school refused to relinquish the funding they got from be to a private school because they claimed I didn't have autism. it's raw politics, not medicine.

Being antisocial and having stunted social skills does not necessarily equate to a form of autism. Space Marines are taken from physically strong children and raised in a rigid setting where the only thing they truly become comfortable with is war. They're out of their element when it comes to dealing with people on a personal basis so it should be understandable that such interactions make them feel uncomfortable. I believe that's what the authors are trying to convey when they show the Marines act awkwardly in conversation that doesn't have to deal with mass murder.

Indeed, the authors may simply be using symptoms of modern disorders to get that fact accross.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:
No just no, having worked with people who have autisem none of the mentioned characthers have said disorder. Nor do I like it when people claim fictional characthers has it

Just out of curiosity, why?

Because I find it extremely inappropriate and shows a clear sign of disrespect for those suffering for it. And I also don`t like stick said diagnosis on purely fictional characters

I don't really think it's possible to use 21st century psychological terms on bioengineered, not fully human killing machines.

There's nothing wrong with Kharn's behaviour, he's a really great guy to be around

Da Butcha wrote:
Yeah, I don't see how you are getting this for Kharn.

He's a World Eater, and they are all genetically altered, psychologically conditioned, surgically mutilated killing machines. I don't see him as particularly dysfunctional compared to the rest of them, and, given that he is able to fight the Nails occasionally, and recognizes the condition of his brothers, and his Primarch, I really don't see him as being less understanding of emotions than the other World Eaters (more, if anything).

Plus, I don't see Kharn as being supernaturally skilled in combat. The novel specifically mentions that he's not particularly distinguished in the sparring cages, and it makes a big deal of

Spoiler:

his sudden badassery in the cage fighting Erebus.

No one expected Kharn to be so swift, brutal, and skilled, precisely because he hadn't been that way before. Something changed in him

Spoiler:

when his 'brother' was betrayed (or when his 'father' changed).

Kinda hoping the reason kharn went bad ass during the fight with erebus was that something snapped in him or......raum found a new host.

I thought Kharn was supposed to be one of the more personable World Eaters anyhow.

Hospy wrote:
I don't really think it's possible to use 21st century psychological terms on bioengineered, not fully human killing machines.

This. They are so post human at this point anyway that you really can't apply what we call psychology to them.

Unless you're a psychologist stop trying to do psychoanalysis, because most amateurs don't seem to understand that diagnoses are just archetypes used to group people with similar problems so they can be helped. Every human is unique and incredibly complex and only when needed should a label such as a diagnosis ever be used.
Its reference work to make life easier for the psychologist, not a crime that you're trying to prove. Guess why they very rarely tell a person they have a diagnoses instead they say you have [insert diagnosis] related problems. Because they don't want patients identifying with a diagnosis that in fact may only relate to them in certain issues. the goal if a diagnosis is always to help a person live a better life. when it comes to fictional character don't do it because you're making a needless simplification that quite frankly might upset people with actual problems.
Diagnoses are tools, not diseases.

Also saying that the traitors fell because of some flaw in their original character takes a away some of the tragedy from their fall from grace. People aren't born destined to be evil its a choice you make.

 TheDungen wrote:
Unless you're a psychologist stop trying to do psychoanalysis, because most amateurs don't seem to understand that diagnoses are just archetypes used to group people with similar problems so they can be helped. Every human is unique and incredibly complex and only when needed should a label such as a diagnosis ever be used.
Its reference work to make life easier for the psychologist, not a crime that you're trying to prove. Guess why they very rarely tell a person they have a diagnoses instead they say you have [insert diagnosis] related problems. Because they don't want patients identifying with a diagnosis that in fact may only relate to them in certain issues. the goal if a diagnosis is always to help a person live a better life. when it comes to fictional character don't do it because you're making a needless simplification that quite frankly might upset people with actual problems.
Diagnoses are tools, not diseases.

Also saying that the traitors fell because of some flaw in their original character takes a away some of the tragedy from their fall from grace. People aren't born destined to be evil its a choice you make.

This. In so many ways.
Exalted.

Also saying that the traitors fell because of some flaw in their original character takes a away some of the tragedy from their fall from grace. People aren't born destined to be evil its a choice you make.

I'm not sure that it does make them less tragic and I'm also not sure about your second sentence. Sometimes, that jump to evil happens BECAUSE of a flaw in your character. Someone or something influenced or took advantage of an already present personality flaw (the kind of flaws almost all of us have - like my rampant Napolean complex for example). Most of the time when someone does something "evil", in their mind what they are doing isn't actually evil. Plus, it didn't take much arm twisting for Horus to go rogue did it? All the existing traitors had to do was prey on his natural hubris and jealousy and turn them up to 11 (so to speak), and Bam! Instant heresy. Especially when they then turned those emotions towards the purpose of making him think he was actually doing the right thing.

I think that makes them MORE relatable and therefor much more tragic than if Horus one day wakes up and says, "Meh, let's just be evil for a while ..."

I feel like the intelligence in the first part of your post (which is awesome) kind of fights with the statement in the part I quoted. Now, if I've misunderstood and your point was that they didn't fall because of something like Autism well then I agree with you ...

These books are basically telling people with diagnoses that they are flawed and will become evil. Sure they may not be that impressionable but then again, go though life feeling different and and you really don't appreciate that sentiment.

And I imagine that a Napoleon complex that you've diagnosed yourself with is something else entirely than having a professional look you in the eye and tell you you're diffident.

And while yes but as you said we are all flawed and that does not require a psychological diagnosis, and circumstances and psychological trauma that turns 'people evil' and it always comes down to a choice.
Again you aren't born evil you're taught evil by being subjected to it.
A person who has been a victim might in turn victimize others to ease his own feelings of vulnerability.
Even in cases of the diagnoses mentioned there is usually a trigger event. A lot of people go through their entire life carrying a trigger for Autism, Aspergers, add or any of those, never even knowing it. Not even diagnoses are built in, they are the result of a specific stimuli and a specific trigger.
And again having a diagnosis does not make people bad, just different. Why isn't there as many space marines and primarchs with signs of this that have an easier time resisting chaos, because that is just as likely.
There is a common misconception in society that 'mad' people do horrible things, while in truth most horrible things are done by perfectly normal people who are either following orders or finding themselves in an unusual situation. Yes Ted Bundy was probably different, but he killed 35 people (and is one of the worst cases most 'different' people never harm anyone). Hitler (godwin's law, lampshaded) was on the other hand a very normal person with strange views and he ordered the death of millions.

burnaboy wrote:
So recently i have read the novel shadows of treachery and i'm part way threw the novel betrayer and in both books it describes how these champions detest any kind of human contact and are repulsed by it. It also shows how they have no understanding of the emotions of others now these are strong and common characteristic's of autism. The final piece of evidence that convinces me that there autistic is the simple fact of there supreme natural skill for combat its well know that many severely autistic people have almost supernatural skill in specific area be it memory, drawing ect and so why not combat its just another area of skills that's natural to the human race.

What do you guys think am i right or am i just reading to far between the lines?

How is Kharn autistic ? Its plainly stated in Betrayer that Kharn is difficult to dislike. And Kharn is friends with Lotara and actually does have diplomatic skills as far as world eaters go.

Where exactly is it stated that Kharn is repulsed by human contact ?

Yeah, Kharn had a verifiable bromance with Argel Tal

Apparent autism is probably just a biproduct of the astartes engineering process.

Hospy wrote:
I don't really think it's possible to use 21st century psychological terms on bioengineered, not fully human killing machines.

This, Kharn's the way he is because of his augmentations such as the butchers nails and I don't think the blood god's touch did much for his empathy either, I think I'd be quicker to label a guy who's stalked the galaxy for millennia killing and pillaging a clear-cut psychotic rather than autistic.

I think if Kharn was autistic he wouldn't even be able to go outside a lot of the time, never mind hacking people up with an axe. Going off my own experience from autistic relatives, I can't really picture an autistic person being like Kharn, like I said I just think he is psychotic.

 Ardaric_Vaanes wrote:

Hospy wrote:
I don't really think it's possible to use 21st century psychological terms on bioengineered, not fully human killing machines.

This, Kharn's the way he is because of his augmentations such as the butchers nails and I don't think the blood god's touch did much for his empathy either, I think I'd be quicker to label a guy who's stalked the galaxy for millennia killing and pillaging a clear-cut psychotic rather than autistic.

I think if Kharn was autistic he wouldn't even be able to go outside a lot of the time, never mind hacking people up with an axe. Going off my own experience from autistic relatives, I can't really picture an autistic person being like Kharn, like I said I just think he is psychotic.

Ah, the good ol' psychotic murderer story! I like chaos!