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I actually really like the story Abnett wrote. In fact I found it the most interesting thing in that book, the idea that this guy had seen all this stuff, he fought at Verdun and saw this or that. Very cool in my eyes.

My only problem is the fact that he did it to Ollanius Pius. I understood WHY he did it, I just wished he didnt do it because now Ollanius Pius lost that magic spark about him. It was replaced with a new bit of magic but I enjoyed the old magic.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Redcruisair wrote:The amount of butthurtness in this thread is unbelievable.

Complain all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that the original story of Pius made no frakking sense whatsoever.

There is an old Chinese saying that still rings true today.

"The man who whines about the butthurt: He is the most butthurt of all."

On a side note, how does the story not make sense? It's pretty simple. In fact, I could explain it in one sentence: When Horus fought the Emperor, a Guardsman named Ollanius Pius was the only man who stood by the Emperor's side, and Ollanius was killed trying to defend him. It seemed like it would be a hard story for Abnett to feth up, but he managed it.

I bolded the daft bit. I liked the Ollanius Pius story, as a story used to inspire the Guard, but it does make absolutely no sense whatsoever; how does he get up to the Vengeful Spirit again? Because I'm pretty sure horrible things happen to unarmoured non-genetically enhanced posthumans when they go through a teleporter, particularly when they're being teleported onto a maddening Chaos-twisted hellscape of a ship. Further, even if the Emperor was desperate enough that he would take regular unaugmented humans with him on his jaunt aboard the flagship of the enemy, the idea that even one of them would survive what the boarding party goes through prior to the Emperor's confrontation with Horus is laughable, and I say that as a staunch fan of the IG.

Seriously, I don't think BL can win sometimes, because you can bet your life that the exact same people would be on here whinging that they didn't bring back Ollanius Pius if they'd just stuck with the Imperial Fist Terminator. The reason they needed to create a Deus Ex Machina to explain how/why Oll ends up in that situation is because without it the situation is daft.

Ahh ... novel deviations. Welcome to my world.

Psienesis wrote:This was a character that, on screen, had maybe 5 lines of dialogue and was entirely faceless, and had less than 15 minutes of total screen-time over 2 films, and then died in one. People had based an entire mythology around this character on nothing but personal fantasies and viewer-projection.

Well, to be fair, the character was fairly popular in the Extended Universe and showed up in a ton of novels.

Part of why so many people didn't like the prequels is because those movies ignored or invalidated a number of established ideas from the EU (keeping in mind that Star Wars, unlike 40k, actually has a canon) - Fett's past was just one part of it, but arguably one of the most popular ones.

I do agree about preconceived notions being a bad thing, however, at least when applied to 40k. Here, it is more of a problem than in ASoIaF where it's "just" a matter of the author going against established clichés and writing a somewhat more gritty/realistic story .. here, you cannot even expect continuity in terms of details - unless your preconceived notions are limited to a single series of novels (for the Horus Heresy at least tries to be internally consistent).

Void__Dragon wrote:"Personal 40k canon" is a marketing ploy and a lie.
I don't have the luxury to ignore the Newcrons because every work from now on has used and will use them as the model for their fluff.
And for someone who does read the Horus Heresy as a series, yes, this change does, in fact, matter, regardless of your opinions on 40k's canon "as a whole".

"Personal 40k canon" may be a marketing ploy, but it is not a lie - as is evident if you look at the humongous ton of sources that contradict each other, and the fact that a number of their writers have gone out of their way to explain the "why" to the audience. Outside of an actual company statement, mind you, and I don't think ADB gets paid for posting on dakka.

Why do you believe that every work from now on will respect Newcron fluff? Arguably, there are sufficient examples where Black Libary authors didn't care much for how X was said to work in some Codex. I don't see why it should be different for Necrons. FFG's Deathwatch RPG also ignores the GK Sorcery fluff, for example. All they did take away from the new 'dex was the Dreadknight (as much as I think that one ought to be ignored too ).

The only place where we can be relatively sure this portrayal of Pius will have any bearing on are subsequent HH novels, but I really don't know what people expected from a series that went the extra mile to make everything and everyone super-epic and larger than life.

Bottom line, I'm with Psienesis on this one. If you don't like it, ignore it. And even if you're dead-set on continueing to read the HH series, how likely is it this character will show up ever again? Maybe once in that final battle .. assuming they ever get to that part.

Yodhrin wrote:I bolded the daft bit. I liked the Ollanius Pius story, as a story used to inspire the Guard, but it does make absolutely no sense whatsoever; how does he get up to the Vengeful Spirit again? Because I'm pretty sure horrible things happen to unarmoured non-genetically enhanced posthumans when they go through a teleporter, particularly when they're being teleported onto a maddening Chaos-twisted hellscape of a ship.

Well, in Pius' original fluff, that fight took place in the Imperial Palace on Terra, and Ollanius was a randum dude who stood in the halls. The fight being relocated into the bowels of Horus' flagship was the exact reason why GW chose to rewrite this character in subsequent publications.

I don't think it had to do anything with teleporters, considering Inquisitors seem to use them all the time. Armour wouldn't make a difference, anyways, given that the entire body is displaced. Shielding oneself against a teleportation beam kinda defeats the purpose of getting into one in the first place - you want your body to be affected by it, else you'll just stand there and nothing happens!

Anyways, I'd just treat it like ADB and Gascogne said. It's one of many possibilities, the details having become forgotten in the mists of time. Pick the one you like most and run with it.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Dan Abnett violated the good Ollanius Pius with a rusty spork. People were mad when Ollanius was retconned to be an Imperial Fists Terminator, and they were even madder when he was retconned to be an Imperial Custode. I was angry too - it ruined the character. But why is no one angry about what Dan Abnett did?

I don't think people were mad when the terminator was introduced. This tale was from the 2nd RoC book. This was very well received by people in general. I don't think most people gave a rats ass about Pious who prior to this was pretty much a throw away line and nothing more.

Background

Ollanius Pius was first introduced in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium with a blurb about who was, and no more than one or two sentences about him.

No he wasn't.

he was first mentioned in WD, where the artwork for the (then) new Imperial Guard plastic kit was splashed over a double page spread. there his face on the banner they're carrying



This was later collected in the compendium which was a compilation of Wd articles.

He was an Imperial Guardsmen during the Horus Heresy, and because he has no background, you can safely assume he's an average joe, not like all the Primarchs, Xenos, and Daemons. He saw Horus fighting the Emperor aboard Horus' flagship. And, while everyone else was backing away (including the Custodes, the Imperial Fists, and the Sons of Horus), Ollanius Pius ran ahead to protect his Emperor. Being a mere mortal, he didn't stand a chance. Horus psychically flawed him without a thought.

That's speculation, especially about the other people backing away .. ? All it said was that he interposed himself during the battle, dying to protect/save the Emperor.

This says a lot about him. He was just an average joe, and in a world of gods and daemons, he took a stand for what he believed was right. He had no special powers; he wasn't some ultramarine colored Ultramarine who was an ultra awesome marine or abatman marine with electrified claws. Ollanius was just a normal dude, and that's what makes him admirable. He could be described as the embodiment of the Imperial Guard, a mere mortal utterly dedicated to holding the line.

The fanbase latched onto him.

I don't think they did, most people didn't, and don't give a toss either way.
I think the change they've made is vastly superior, both in terms of logic and narrative.

For a tiny blurb of fluff from a book that collecting articles from White Dwarf, he was pretty well known. And when he was retconned to be an Imperial Fists Terminator and then a Custode, people were angry

Again, no they weren't, most people didn't care.

, because it took the magic away from him. There's nothing special about a super soldier taking a stand. That's what they're meant to do; that's what they're supposed to do. But most people just chose to ignore that stupid fluff, and continue to view Ollanius as a Guardsman.

The Crime

Spoiler:

This is Dan Abnett. He's one of the better 40k writers. I'm a huge fan of Ravenor because, unlike with most 40k books, I genuinely cared about the characters and wanted them to succeed. And after I read the book I still remembered the character's names, which says a lot. By comparison, after reading the Flight of the Eisenstein the only characters I remembered were the ones introduced to me outside of that book. As in Mortarion, Typhus, and Garro. Everyone else I don't remember anything about. Presumably they were members of the Death Guard, because the book was about the Death Guard, but beyond that I don't know.

Now, I'm not saying Dan Abnett violated Ollanius Pius.[/quot But would you trust him with a rusty spork around your bumhole? Would you? Think about that while you read the rest of this post

Please don't post nonsense like this on Dakka. there's plenty of other places where you can spout juvenile drivel like this.

 LoneLictor wrote:
"The man who whines about the butthurt: He is the most butthurt of all."

I think this comment tells us everything we need to know about you and what kind of stunt you are trying pull here. I thought you could muster a better argument than that, but it seems like I have overestimated you LoneLicter.

I pointed out how all this thread boils down to is you and Void_Dragon among others, are ranting about how BL and its writer Dan Abnett have failed in meeting your expectations, with regards to how the character Pius has recently been portrayed.

There is no intellectual discussion going on here. This is just a case of a minor and very vocal group of people using poorly put together arguments in order to justify their dissatisfaction with a retcon (as you put it,) and trying to get the rest of us to join in on your little anti-Dan Abnett/Black Library crusade (see the quote below.)

 LoneLictor wrote:
Dan Abnett violated the good Ollanius Pius with a rusty spork. People were mad when Ollanius was retconned to be an Imperial Fists Terminator, and they were even madder when he was retconned to be an Imperial Custode. I was angry too - it ruined the character. But why is no one angry about what Dan Abnett did?

You are confused with how few people have taken the same stance as you on this topic and now you desperately want to win people over, which is just pathetic.

Da Butcha wrote:
I mean, for feth's sake his last name is PIUS, which I always assumed was a deliberate nod to 'pious' and the whole burgeoning Imperial cult.

Da Butcha wrote:
I just assumed that instead of this being an Imperial Propaganda story, that Persson was actually the 'real person' who the later moralistic fable about Ollanius Pius was written.

Excellent points!

In this case, there is no necessary contradiction. Seems to me that what we originally had was a legendary figure. I look forward to reading more about what Persson really did to eventually be remembered as Pius.

It's just one more of the many, many stupid changes to 40K background that the HH series has made. I've stopped acknowledging the series (and, for that matter, the whole of BL) a long time ago in favour of SF stories that are less about boyish wish fulfillment and more about y'know, actual stories and plot.

Although I do agree that Pious should have been left a humble guardsman, to drive home both how far Horus had fallen, and how incredibly brave the man was.

...

They could still make the sacrifice have meaning and an impact if Horus kills Pious so dead he can't respawn anymore and is truly and irrevocably deceased.

But I would still prefer the "just a man" version.

Again, I don't think anything has been changed. Whatever happened in M35, Pius is remembered as a humble Guardsman in M41. The original fluff was a legend.

That's not the point.

So you would prefer he actually definitely was a guardsman and not was remembered as one?
I can see the difference but it does seem a touch petty...
I prefer the way Manchu put it because it shows how the Imperium has a distorted view of what happened so long ago.
That's always worth reinforcing...

Bran Dawri wrote:

But I would still prefer the "just a man" version.

To everyone else he is just a man, only a select few would know of his origins and the legend being built on that, thats's how I see it at least.

So this isn't changing the what is it, 2 lines I think, of fluff we have on Pious, it's adding to that story.

The Compendium also includes the story about the Terminator in the section describing the Crux Terminatus, so it raises the point about how stories get told down the ages, was it a Guardsman that sacrificed himself for the Emperor or was it a noble Astartes?

 purplefood wrote:
... it shows how the Imperium has a distorted view of what happened so long ago.
That's always worth reinforcing...

Oh pap, snipered by purplefood

Bran Dawri wrote:
That's not the point.

If you look at the original fluff, him being a legendary character was exactly the point.

I choose to think that it is part of Games Workshop's continuing plan to stamp out everything coming close to optimism or silliness in favor of more GRIMDARK.

Think about Pius for a moment. He is the embodiment of hope in Humanity. The smallest man facing the greatest challenge, in defiance of the inevitable. He rejected fate, and proved that Humanity was worth saving.

Can't have a reassuring story like that in a universe that is trying to convince us how ignorant everybody is to the point where it stops making sense.

The thing that sometimes intrigues me is that people don't spot the great parallel in the original Ollanius Pius story. The Emperor united humanity & took it to the stars, forging it's destiny. He'd cultivated and shaped humanity from the shadows up to the point where he emerged as it's leader. Essentially the Emperor guided and protected humanity, looking after it at critical moments. This is where the parallel comes in.

In the Imperial Palace, when Horus struck the Emperor down, humanity repaid the favor to it's Emperor in the shape of one Imperial soldier, Ollanius Pius. Through Pius humanity protected the Emperor at a pivotal moment. As Horus went to strike the fallen Emperor, Pius intervened. Horus switched his attention to the lone Imperial Army soldier and obliterated him, giving the Emperor the mere moment he needed to strike his treacherous son down.

This also goes hand-in-hand with the ordinary human stepping up where super-humans wouldn't or couldn't to do what he thought was right. I think it's a grand tale and I personally do not like the idea of him not being a super-special human. I'll stick with him as a regular Imperial Army soldier - far more epic than it being yet another super/special-human.

 Manchu wrote:
Again, I don't think anything has been changed. Whatever happened in M35, Pius is remembered as a humble Guardsman in M41. The original fluff was a legend.

I like this comment. It exemplifies my personal view of the Warhammer 40k fluff; that it is all extremely subjective and should be viewed through the eyes of a historian looking at over 10,000 years of galactic history. Obviously, historical accounts in the real world vary. Think about how little solid truth we know about things that happened 1000 years ago. Now multiply that by ten and add in the Imperium's self-perpetuating system of repression and elimination of past events. With that in mind, you can see that much of what we read that is perceived as a "discrepancy" or a "retcon" could very well just be different accounts of the same event told from a different perspective. It's up to you to decide what you think really happened. Maybe you think something totally different happened.

The grand scale of 40k fluff is something that isn't seen in many other scifi universes. The amount of time the history makes up and the galactic scale of the universe makes it so that there is a lot of extra space for different people, whether they be writers or just hobbyists, to interpret the universe in their own way. I think, for whatever reason, a lot of people don't get this and automatically perceive changes or shifts in the fluff to be an affront to the original fluff. I don't think it's that at all, and frankly, people need not get so butthurt about it and understand that the grand scale of 40k leaves a lot up for personal interpretation and discretion.

... and that's basically my point, too. Whoever Pius (or Persson... "Person"? Really?) was "in life", and how he got to be at the side of the Emperor at the fight with Horus, is irrelevant. All that is important is how he is remembered in M41, and that is as a regular Joe who stood up for the Emperor, in the face of certain death, and did what had to be done.

I entirely agree with lonelictor on the subject, and I think this quote from 1d4chan sums it up quite well;

1d4chan wrote:The entire point of the character is to demonstrate that true courage and inner strength can be found even among the weakest (by comparison) of individuals. GW in their infinite understanding completely missed this point and proceeded to replace the brave and ordinary little soldier with a progressively bigger and stronger superhero with every retcon, thus in a way making Horus' fall to Chaos seem less and less despicable; the original story of a superhuman so remorselessly killing the regular human could be seen in a similar light as a grown man killing a child, Ollanius' death would have been proof enough to show the Emperor that his prized son had finally gone too far and was beyond any sort of help.

I think 1d4Chan misses the point about what Chaos represents, because the Great Crusade certainly killed billions of "regular humans" at the Emperor's command.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think 1d4Chan misses the point about what Chaos represents, because the Great Crusade certainly killed billions of "regular humans" at the Emperor's command.

What little understanding of the Emperors character is one of the problems here. Wouldn't the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy end up killing millions of Space marines? Why was the Emperor's mind changed by a Custodes death?

SM are warriors, by design. They are meant to kill and die in warfare, that's the entire purpose for them existing. They are a tool, a means to an end.

The death of this one guy did not change the Emperor's mind... in fact, I'm pretty sure the Emperor had more pressing needs (namely "not dying") at the time.

 Psienesis wrote:
This plays out in other fandoms, too, though. I remember people being pissy when it turned out that Boba Fett was the clone of his New Zealander dad. This was a character that, on screen, had maybe 5 lines of dialogue and was entirely faceless, and had less than 15 minutes of total screen-time over 2 films, and then died in one. People had based an entire mythology around this character on nothing but personal fantasies and viewer-projection.

Whoa whoa whoa!

Slow down friend. First of all, sorry for being off topic so I'll keep it quick.

Boba Fett's real name was Jaster Mareal from the planet Concord Dawn. He did not die in the Sarlac pit, but survived to be rescued by Dengar.

Boba my have only had a few minutes of screen time but he had plenty of books, comics, video games and such to flesh out his history.

Star Wars has hundreds of books just like Black Library. Boba Fett's retcon was so drastic that it would be on par with saying that the Emperor of Mankind is a female Eldar who is married to Tzeentch.

 Psienesis wrote:
SM are warriors, by design. They are meant to kill and die in warfare, that's the entire purpose for them existing. They are a tool, a means to an end.

The death of this one guy did not change the Emperor's mind... in fact, I'm pretty sure the Emperor had more pressing needs (namely "not dying") at the time.

Still, it has been said that the sight of a helpless human being crushed by Horus (which, it's possible the Emperor didn't see too much combat towards the end of the Crusade once all the Primarchs had taken over so he may not have seen such slaughter against non-Astartes) is the thing that just suddenly made all of the crusade and heresy make sense to the Big-E, and made him realize exactly how far gone his son was.

Also, if it made sense or not, the story of a helpless human "fighting" Horus was a bit more epic than a custodes

 DeffDred wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
This plays out in other fandoms, too, though. I remember people being pissy when it turned out that Boba Fett was the clone of his New Zealander dad. This was a character that, on screen, had maybe 5 lines of dialogue and was entirely faceless, and had less than 15 minutes of total screen-time over 2 films, and then died in one. People had based an entire mythology around this character on nothing but personal fantasies and viewer-projection.

Whoa whoa whoa!

Slow down friend. First of all, sorry for being off topic so I'll keep it quick.

Boba Fett's real name was Jaster Mareal from the planet Concord Dawn. He did not die in the Sarlac pit, but survived to be rescued by Dengar.

Boba my have only had a few minutes of screen time but he had plenty of books, comics, video games and such to flesh out his history.

Star Wars has hundreds of books just like Black Library. Boba Fett's retcon was so drastic that it would be on par with saying that the Emperor of Mankind is a female Eldar who is married to Tzeentch.

All of which is EU, and of tertiary (or worse) canon in the SW universe. Those books were written *because* Boba Fett was a popular character with the fanbase, they did not create the popularity of Boba Fett.

Also, if it made sense or not, the story of a helpless human "fighting" Horus was a bit more epic than a custodes

That story hasn't changed, as that is how Pius is remembered in M41. How he actually was is, at this point, irrelevant.

Whether intentional or not, this could be a way of adding even more tragedy to the story. This is a man who has continually returned from death for thousands of years. But when he is killed by Horus, body and soul ripped to shreds... he doesn't come back. Worse, what if he knows this ahead of time, and sacrifices his millenia-long life anyway?

 Psienesis wrote:
... Whoever Pius (or Persson... "Person"? Really?) was "in life"...

Persson means "Son of Per" in Scandinavian languages.

Psienesis wrote:All of which is EU, and of tertiary (or worse) canon in the SW universe. Those books were written *because* Boba Fett was a popular character with the fanbase, they did not create the popularity of Boba Fett.

Secondary canon. It's movies > anything else. Except of course for the non-canon stuff such as some really old comics or the "alternate timeline" Infinities comics. I believe there's also some intermediary levels such as the Clone Wars CGI series, but that is fairly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. As far as the portrayal of the setting is concerned, Leland Chee once explained that you can either just go with the movies, or take everything, so it kind of boils down to those two categories. Hence the name "expanded" universe - it's an optional expansion of the movies.

And I'm fairly sure that Fett didn't become popular just because of that short appearance in TESB and RotJ, but rather that it was sort of a self-escalating thing. In fact, I recall this character just doing cameos or short stories in a lot of books for a time (such as Tales from Jabba's Palace), until finally some author realised that all his appearances did generate a rise in interest in the fanbase and he finally started to get his own books. It really wasn't that people went wild just because of a few seconds in the movie, although this certainly was the catalyst ("masked" characters often have people wonder whether there's more to them).

Psienesis wrote:That story hasn't changed, as that is how Pius is remembered in M41. How he actually was is, at this point, irrelevant.

Indeed.
Although I'd say that how Pius is remembered in M41 also depends entirely on what sources one is going by.
This is the -good- side of how fluff is treated in this franchise. You get to cherrypick.

 Psienesis wrote:


That story hasn't changed, as that is how Pius is remembered in M41. How he actually was is, at this point, irrelevant.

I don't care how fictitious people remember Pius in-universe; it would have even fit the grimdarkness if his existence had been wiped from history so your average guardsman doesn't learn about Chaos or Horus and his betrayal. In fact, I might have liked that.

What matters is that we know the story. To turn him into yet another "super-special snowflake immortal super-saiyan" cheapens the character, his sacrifice and the story. Regardless of how it's remembered afterwards.

 blood reaper wrote:
I entirely agree with lonelictor on the subject, and I think this quote from 1d4chan sums it up quite well;

1d4chan wrote:The entire point of the character is to demonstrate that true courage and inner strength can be found even among the weakest (by comparison) of individuals. GW in their infinite understanding completely missed this point and proceeded to replace the brave and ordinary little soldier with a progressively bigger and stronger superhero with every retcon, thus in a way making Horus' fall to Chaos seem less and less despicable; the original story of a superhuman so remorselessly killing the regular human could be seen in a similar light as a grown man killing a child, Ollanius' death would have been proof enough to show the Emperor that his prized son had finally gone too far and was beyond any sort of help.

Utter rubbish.

There was no point to the character, be cause he wasn't a character. He was a throw away line on what was really little more than an advert.

Seeing as by the time we'd got to the palace Horus has killed untold billions of normal humans -- on Terra alone -- that evil has already been well established.

There is no story of him killing the humble guardsman and this being what stiffens the Emperor's resolve, the whole idea of that was introduced in the RoC book where Mr. King wrote the story of their battle, where it was a Terminator.

It makes no narrative sense for a normal guardsman to be on Horus' battle barge, and even less sense that this man could find his way through the guards and wards that Horus had set up precisely so the Emperor would have to face him alone.

 ashrog wrote:
Whether intentional or not, this could be a way of adding even more tragedy to the story. This is a man who has continually returned from death for thousands of years. But when he is killed by Horus, body and soul ripped to shreds... he doesn't come back. Worse, what if he knows this ahead of time, and sacrifices his millenia-long life anyway?

That's exactly the way I see it, a final death. What's more, you've got the potential of the current interpretation of Ollanius being the LITERAL avatar of the Imperial Guard and human soldiery. And in doing so, Ollanius The Pious inspires Guardsmen for the next 10000 years...

It's worth adding events from The Sigillite and Betrayer into this discussion too. Or, hmm, maybe a whole new thread about the Perpetuals. Truth be told, I quite like them integrating the illuminatii / sensei back into the universe in a measured fashion.

It's worth pointing out, for example, that Betrayer notes that John Grammaticus is significantly more powerful than the normal perpetuals (which Oll is) due to Eldar / Cabal intervention. I can imagine most of the weirder stuff involving Oll in Know no Fear, was just psychic stuff from Grammaticus..

Then, of course, you've got Macharius who seems to have been the traditional leader of the Perpetuals. I have the feeling that they'll tie some into being the literal sons of the Emperor in ages past.

 Lynata wrote:

Part of why so many people didn't like the prequels is because those movies ignored or invalidated a number of established ideas from the EU (keeping in mind that Star Wars, unlike 40k, actually has a canon) - Fett's past was just one part of it, but arguably one of the most popular ones.

No, that wasn't it. I never liked EU, most of it was stupid. People did not hate the prequels because they deviated from EU canon, they hated them because they were abysmally horrible films.