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The return to allies is pretty sweet.

Ambivalent about double force organizations, but it can work.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

phatonic wrote:
I like double force org.. make it easier to make big lists above 2k.

That's exactly why I don't like it. What made large games fun for me was that the constraints on list building shifted away from the points I had available, to how I could most effectively make use of the FOC slots I had.
IMO making tough decisions when building lists is half the fun of the game.

I love allies though. Cheese, fluff and fielding my favourite models in one army. What's not to like?

Yeah, but remember that some codices are unfairly restricted, or at least certain army builds are restricted. So they need that second FoC.

Say an IG player wants to run more Russes but he doesn't want to squadron them. With a second FoC he can split the models up.

Or a Marine player wants to run lots of Speeders and a couple Stormtalons. Now he can do that.

Or an Ork army wants to play 3k points +, without playing apocalypse. They can't get much in one FOC.

phatonic wrote:
Well for me it would be hard to make lists on 4k+ on a SINGLE FOC... only 3 heavy supourts as a ork player? pfft

4k is a pretty silly number. Once you're in that area you're well and truly in apocalypse.

Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but remember that some codices are unfairly restricted, or at least certain army builds are restricted. So they need that second FoC.

Say an IG player wants to run more Russes but he doesn't want to squadron them. With a second FoC he can split the models up.

Or a Marine player wants to run lots of Speeders and a couple Stormtalons. Now he can do that.

Both of those examples can be at least aided with allies by adding an extra FOC or codices which have access to those units as troops. Although my point is kinda what you said. I don't think you should be able to have the list you want just because it's a 2K points. The FOC is a restriction that makes list building interesting past 2K. Without it, it's basically just a grab bag of whatever models you have, or doubling of your usual army list.

 -Loki- wrote:
I'm not arguing it's a good system, but just that, with 2000pts being a common game size, changing it to 2001pts to unlock it would have avoided a lot of the complaints around it.

This I agree with. I wonder if they meant over 2000 points....

I like allies and double force organisation.

In regards to force organisation, when I was making my Nid list I was having a lot of trouble limiting myself to 6 troops. And with Grey knights, my full force has 4 land raiders which i wouldn't be able to use and will eventually have 2 storm ravens and a few squads of interceptors which i wouldn't be able to do either.

Point is, its nice to have big points games without having to resort to apocalypse rules. Allies, I like a lot, shame Nids can't ally with GK

 Griddlelol wrote:

phatonic wrote:
Well for me it would be hard to make lists on 4k+ on a SINGLE FOC... only 3 heavy supourts as a ork player? pfft

4k is a pretty silly number. Once you're in that area you're well and truly in apocalypse.

Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but remember that some codices are unfairly restricted, or at least certain army builds are restricted. So they need that second FoC.

Say an IG player wants to run more Russes but he doesn't want to squadron them. With a second FoC he can split the models up.

Or a Marine player wants to run lots of Speeders and a couple Stormtalons. Now he can do that.

Both of those examples can be at least aided with allies by adding an extra FOC or codices which have access to those units as troops. Although my point is kinda what you said. I don't think you should be able to have the list you want just because it's a 2K points. The FOC is a restriction that makes list building interesting past 2K. Without it, it's basically just a grab bag of whatever models you have, or doubling of your usual army list.

Its not a case of what you want. Its a case of one codex being able to get what they want and another not being able to.

And allies arn't helpfull except in a very few specific matchups. My GKs for example have no use for allies, taking any codex as allies makes the GK army worse.

Its basically the difference between the IG player running 3 groups of 2 russes vs 6 groups of 1 russ. Not unfair, just different. And a difference he can't do if there isn't the second FoC.


Of course its pointless as the rules are that if you are playing 2000 points you have the option of a second FoC. Anything altering that is a house rule.

It seems as though we're on different pages. I like the idea of restrictions on how one can build a list. It's what makes list building interesting. It brings out flavour of the codices. Clearly you want it the other way around (at 2k) where there is no such limitation, and that's a valid stand point, however I dislike that, which is why I dislike double FOC.
So in essence, what you're saying is: tough, it's like that.

On the allies, I'd say it's the otherway around, Allies are awesome, except for a few specific matchups which gain nothing.

Personally, I'm not a fan of either one. Double force org isn't a big deal, ever since 'Ard Boyz went away I never play games that are more than 1850. The games just take too long IMO, and I personally think 1850 and below 'keeps players honest' in taking balanced lists (harder to steamroll with maxed slots, etc).

Allies on the other hand, I really really don't like.
First off, there was not even an attempt to maintain the balance between codexes. Ya things weren't perfect before, but now too many variables have been put into the system to ever even dream of fixing things. Some Dexes are screwed (Nids), while others are free to cherry pick from just about anything. Is there any cost for those advantages worked into the Codex? Nope. I just don't like it when things get imbalanced just because of fluff. And the matrix doesn't even follow the fluff very well; Tau with Orks is ok? But not Nids with guard? (Genestealer Cults?)

All that aside, the other thing that bugs me is what it did to competitiveness in tourneys, everything got shifted. So now some armies are nearly forced to take allies to maintain some competition (DE/Eldar, it'd be stupid to not take a Farseer in a DE touney list), and others can ignore allies and be totally fine (GK). On a side note, its also amped up the Deathstar side of things, which I've always thought was a boring way to play the game, but it's not going anywhere so I deal with it.

Honestly, I paint now more than play, so its not affecting me a ton. Just kinda wish it was handled better.