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GW's inclusion of these two elements is marketing genius. They solve two problems when it comes too collecting minis, namely:

1: older players already have 3 of every HS/FA/Elites choice they want how do we get them to buy more stuff? Answer: allow them to double their force orgs at a mere 2000 points (which they most assuredly have if they already have 3 of each)

2. I have army X and I like army Y but but starting a whole new army is expensive. Answer: Now you can take a few units from other armies to include in your current one (and once you start collecting you'll eventually want to collect an entire army)

This is, of course, not new information. the real question is does it improve the game? Do you see the inclusion of allies as a way to breathe new life into an old army or as a way to cherry pick the most unbalanced units from other codexes? Do you use two force orgs at 2000 points? would you be upset if your opponent did without telling you?

These are the questions that keep me up at night Dakka (well that and the cockfighting ring next door).

Personally, I'm pretty ambivalent about double force orgs. I haven't really run into a situation where anyone was fielding anything really unbalanced with it.

As far as allies go, I think they are one of the best things to happen in sixth. The ability to dabble in other armies is awesome. I love being able to collect a new army a unit at a time, while still being able to play with them.

I like the idea of allies. However, there are things that need to be redone with it. I would have a point limit when it would be allowed like as with double force org. Also, you can only have up to 25% of you points spent on allies.

As a fluff player I like the allies system. CSM with Daemon/Traitor guard looks awesome on table. SM chapters working together or with IG allies is really nice look. DE & Eldar both have just striking model ranges and really work well together.

Personally I disapprove of the the power gaming element of Allies I have seen in my area. Players taking Eldar allies just to get Runes of Warding to ruin a psychic armies day. Taking Necrons for the Night Scythe for the anti air and cheap S7 spam. IG for cheap bodies or with DA super blob. Old Tau for the 3+ Cover save S10 hammerhead. Orks for cheap brutal bodies.

Also certainly pairings leave me feeling cold, mainly Crons with GK or CSM. I mean they already have an advantage with a 'better' codex just adding another one is a bit too much. I try not to take the fluff too seriously but it does impact on how much I enjoy a game.

I suppose like any system there will be people that can find a way to taken maximum advantage.

On the Double FoC the worse I have seen is 6 Annihilation Barges with 4 Night Scythes. I think the game was pretty over over by turn 2 - 3.

Double force orgs, no.

But Allies was, simply put, brilliant.

Remember when 6th was just came out, and everyone was oh-ing and ah-ing over the allies rules? One common comment I saw went somewhat along the lines of "I wasn't going to buy a new army for 40k, but I'll pick up some allies to play with'.

Which, as we wargamers should know, will inevitably lead to a new army.

So, slow clap for GW for really taking advantage of that magpie nature of wargamers.

I like it as it allows me to still play Destroyer Armada

I like the ally system. I have yet to feel forced to make an ally. And I think it is actually cheaper to get the minis I want because of the ally system because if I want to say paint a wraithlord, I can buy that and a farseer and some direadvengers rather than buy a whole army.

As for double force orgs, I do not play over 2000pts and have no desire to so it doesn't really effect me. I see the ability to take double force org just allowing higher point games for those who would be buying that many minis anyway.

I get to own models I would have never gotten before. So I consider it good for the game as far as I'm concerned. Building a model is part of the game.

Is allying new? I have been playing with allied detachments since 3rd Edition, when it was suggested in the BRB. Heck, people have been playing with allied detachments since RT.

The only thing that has changed is needing your opponent's permission, and the allies matrix which means now certain allied combinations are illegal.

I don't think either of them were solely due to profits. Allies were undoubtedly a result of a bunch of veteran gamers wishing that they could field two of their many armies at once. Double force-org is a bit of a mystery, though.

In my mind, force org is there to limit you. If you're going to raise the ceiling at such a low points level, it sort of defeats the purpose.

Sales are obviously a driving factor - it pushes up the amount of non troops you can take, afterall. Suddenly someone with 2000pts of Space Marines can bring 6 Predators instead of 3 as long as he's got 4 Tactical Squads and 2 HQ choices, which most would have anyway.

However, allies are definitely to the benefit of the game. It allows people to dabble and mix forces and come up with different combinations. When done right, you can make some very fluffy armies that look great. There's the potential to break the game, but people will find ways to do that anyway.

Double FoC just feels like an attempt to help game scale up without doing the whole 'opponents permission' thing to take another detachment. However, they really should have set it at 2001pts to activate the second FoC, not 1999pts, so 2000pt games are unaffected.

Or perhaps they could have scaled it more nicely. Games 500-2000 are 1 FOC, while games 2,500-3,000 are one FOC and then +1 of each slot, or something.

The jump from single to double is pretty coarse.

I'm not arguing it's a good system, but just that, with 2000pts being a common game size, changing it to 2001pts to unlock it would have avoided a lot of the complaints around it.

Double force org keeps some armies from getting shafted at larger points values. You can only buy so many Fire Warrior and Tactical squads to pad your points out. Not everybody is as infinitely expandable as IG. Allies also does this to a smaller degree, while allowing you to try out new models you wouldn't normally get to use, get a small start to an army, or add some variety to a force. I honestly think both - especially the allies system - are good for both the game and GW. Very smart move on their part.

Double FoC just makes sense. Some armies get hosed at higher points simply because they are running out of slots to take good stuff in.

Its not really possible to abuse it very much because you have to take another HQ and 2 troops to unlock it. A lot of codices find having to take 4 troops and 2 HQs a little tough.


People whine about "18 Vendettas is broken and stupid!!!"

yeah, its also 2340 points. Thats without the mandatory 2 HQs and 4 Troops. Which means you are playing at least 3000 points, at which point you are probably just playing appocalypse.

The prevailing opinion on allies is very positive. Which I totally agree with as the allies system is fantastic in conception (there may be a little tweaking needed but good overall). I am a little concerned that it might disappear like the fantasy version did, but probably not as it is much more balanced.

Double FOC is just not implemented well with the sudden "jerk" up on the limits at the relatively popular 2000 point level which was popular even with a single FOC. Now 2000 pts feels like toyz'R'us.

Allies, great! My Gue'vesa vet squad modeled with extra Tau bits and pulse carbines (counting as shotguns), have a very fluffly place in my allied detatchment.

Imho the second FoC at 2k points is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. I'm doing a 3000 point doubles on sunday (3000 EACH, hello 12000 point blood bath), where that second FoC is needed to field 3000 points with the models i have.

Allies are great—they just need to totally redo the allie matrix. GW always ignores it's own fluff.

Why can't it be both?

I love Allies (fulfilling my long latent desire to feel mobs of guardsmen being led by Space Marines), and while I don't personally use double force charts, I can at least appreciate the variety it gives the game.

wilsjur wrote:
Allies are great—they just need to totally redo the allie matrix. GW always ignores it's own fluff.

I don't think it needs to be redone completely, just tweaked here and there. I wouldn't say GW is ignoring its fluff by any stretch.

IG plus Tyrranids for Genestealer Cultists!

Tau and IG, GK and IG(theyre expendable and it happens plenty. Or give the GK Stormtroopers again), IG and Chaos, BT and SoB. All should have BattleBrother status but are ignored....

Do you use two force orgs at 2000 points? would you be upset if your opponent did without telling you?

Some armies like DE can almost fill all slots in a single FOC at the 2000 pts. So at 2500 pts you definitely need a new FOC.

It has never been a secret that GW makes models first and rules second, so it wouldn't surprise me if the allies and lower-cost double FOC rules started as a suggestion to Kirby asking how to get all of us to buy more models.

That said, double FOC has never been an issue for me (since I started my army, I've been running 2 HQs and 4 Troops, and I've never maxxed out a single FOC's limits, elsewhere), but Allies is something that I really want to try. It will allow me to try out new armies without investing in 1500 points, which is especially good with SoB (it's still about $100 USD to field 1 HQ and 10 Sisters just to get a squad of Seraphim, iirc, but that's better than twice that cost to meet FOC).

Something I only just considered -- with double FOC, are you allowed to take TWO allies and two fortifications?

I like double force org.. make it easier to make big lists above 2k.

I don't mind playing 2 FOC, so long as it's agreed first.
It can be quite fun.

Matney X wrote:


Something I only just considered -- with double FOC, are you allowed to take TWO allies and two fortifications?

Yes, an FoC includes an Allied detachment and a Fortification slot. Getting a second FoC gets you additional ones of those too.

phatonic wrote:
I like double force org.. make it easier to make big lists above 2k.

That's exactly why I don't like it. What made large games fun for me was that the constraints on list building shifted away from the points I had available, to how I could most effectively make use of the FOC slots I had.
IMO making tough decisions when building lists is half the fun of the game.

I love allies though. Cheese, fluff and fielding my favourite models in one army. What's not to like?

 Griddlelol wrote:

phatonic wrote:
I like double force org.. make it easier to make big lists above 2k.

That's exactly why I don't like it. What made large games fun for me was that the constraints on list building shifted away from the points I had available, to how I could most effectively make use of the FOC slots I had.
IMO making tough decisions when building lists is half the fun of the game.

I love allies though. Cheese, fluff and fielding my favourite models in one army. What's not to like?

Well for me it would be hard to make lists on 4k+ on a SINGLE FOC... only 3 heavy supourts as a ork player? pfft

 Griddlelol wrote:

phatonic wrote:
I like double force org.. make it easier to make big lists above 2k.

That's exactly why I don't like it. What made large games fun for me was that the constraints on list building shifted away from the points I had available, to how I could most effectively make use of the FOC slots I had.
IMO making tough decisions when building lists is half the fun of the game.

I love allies though. Cheese, fluff and fielding my favourite models in one army. What's not to like?

Yeah, but remember that some codices are unfairly restricted, or at least certain army builds are restricted. So they need that second FoC.

Say an IG player wants to run more Russes but he doesn't want to squadron them. With a second FoC he can split the models up.

Or a Marine player wants to run lots of Speeders and a couple Stormtalons. Now he can do that.