Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech susceptible to Deny the witch?

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**PrinceRaven**

TheKbob wrote:
helotaxi wrote:
TheKbob wrote:

Except when you're always playing against it

If you're "always playing against it" and haven't figured out how to deal with, the problem would seem to be you...

Yea, if you mean I have to hide in Rhinos or area terrain, separate out my forces so they are thinned, less effective just because of one model in the opponents army that doesn't scatter on DS very much.

TOTALLY WITH ME, YO. I absolutely have no idea what I'm talking about....

*sigh* Thing also has a 3++, so it can shrug off all the S8 I put into it. The only thing that can remotely lock it in combat is one of my Lone Wolves, and even then, 3++ save, the dude has to GET THERE (which my opponent is not going to DS the Doom near my Chainfist hug-buddies).

It's an extremely overpowered single model that does a lot for what it does with no down side or counter. I could get an Icarus Lascannon and hope to one shot it... oh wait, they hide the doom behind the pod and I can't see it. Nevermind!

What do you mean it doesn't scatter on DS very much? Mycetic Spores scatter the full distance. (apart from reducing to avoid mishaps exactly like drop pods)

Yeah, 3+ saves sure are terrible, imagine playing an army with no AP 3 vs an army that's got entirely 3+ armour.

It's definitely points-effective, but I wouldn't call it overpowered, it certainly has a lot of damage potential vs low leadership armies and there will be the odd game where your opponent just fails all their leadership tests horribly, the primary role of the Doom is as a diversion, not a damage dealer, taking a bunch of high strength shots and dying so that my expensive MCs can live.

**nosferatu1001**

Except in a pod he will reduce scatter if he would mishap (apart from off table)

**The Infinite**

TheKbob wrote:
Enceladus wrote:

Yes he can be a nightmare to deal with if you didn't bring the tools but that's half the fun of it, it presents a tactical challenge. If you come to the table without any S8+ weapons then how do you ever propose to take down Land Raiders or Monoliths? A T4 single model should be the least of your worries.

How? Necrons can rock out a Land Raider or other Av14 without having S8+ weapons. Guass, S6 + Rending, S7 + Armour Bane. Actually most Necron comp lists are lacking in S8+.

However, they are Ld10 and less scared of the Doom.

But they have the option to take S8, it's not like the army is lacking in them.
If you choose to leave them out then you take the chance of something like the Doom doing damage to you and live with the consequences.

The argument that nails are hard to deal with when you use a screwdriver is invalid if you don't bother to take the hammer out of your tool box.

**Adamantium**

Well, as a Tyranid player, I take him in almost every game I have ever played. It is definitely a unit based on the luck of the die roll. Sometimes my opponents roll very bad, and sometimes I fail every 3++ save on it in the first Shooting Phase. That's what I like about it so much, it's effectiveness and outcome are completely left to the Dice Gods...

**Janthkin**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except in a pod he will reduce scatter if he would mishap (apart from off table)

And it gets a 6" disembark move now, so can correct for most bad scatters.

**PrinceRaven**

Janthkin wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except in a pod he will reduce scatter if he would mishap (apart from off table)
And it gets a 6" disembark move now, so can correct for most bad scatters.

Just like any unit from any other army with a drop pod equivalent.

**TheKbob**

The Infinite wrote:

But they have the option to take S8, it's not like the army is lacking in them.
If you choose to leave them out then you take the chance of something like the Doom doing damage to you and live with the consequences.

The argument that nails are hard to deal with when you use a screwdriver is invalid if you don't bother to take the hammer out of your tool box.

That's not a valid statement. I play Necrons. There is a great many limit in their shooting above S8. It's either one shot weapons, large (ineffective, usually) blasts, an overcosted flyer and the Triarch Stalker. Oh, and one variant of Crypteks.

Compared to a Space Marine variant, IG, Tau, etc... getting S8 is tough for crons. I gave you an example of an army that ROUTINELY has little to no S8+ and it's not for bad list building, either. That's just how the army runs.

**PrinceRaven**

TheKbob wrote:
an overcosted flyer

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaaaaa...

Sorry, I just found that amusing.

I think the point he's making is you have the option to strength 8 if you want to be able to instant kill toughness 4, and that while choosing not to may make good tactical sense, you have to accept the inherent weaknesses of doing so, just like any other army. I could choose to take a horde Tyranid list with no Flyrants, which would be quite weak to Valkyries, and I'd have to accept that, rather than complain about it on a forum.

**Adamantium**

Touche

**DexKivuli**

TheKbob wrote:
The Infinite wrote:

But they have the option to take S8, it's not like the army is lacking in them.
If you choose to leave them out then you take the chance of something like the Doom doing damage to you and live with the consequences.

The argument that nails are hard to deal with when you use a screwdriver is invalid if you don't bother to take the hammer out of your tool box.

That's not a valid statement. I play Necrons. There is a great many limit in their shooting above S8. It's either one shot weapons, large (ineffective, usually) blasts, an overcosted flyer and the Triarch Stalker. Oh, and one variant of Crypteks.

Compared to a Space Marine variant, IG, Tau, etc... getting S8 is tough for crons. I gave you an example of an army that ROUTINELY has little to no S8+ and it's not for bad list building, either. That's just how the army runs.

Necron defense against the Doom is mindshackle scarabs.

**Voidzone**

DexKivuli wrote: Necron defense against the Doom is mindshackle scarabs.

Go on... when the doom wounds itself what happens : )

**Chrysis**

Depends how many souls he has eaten, doesn't it?

**PrinceRaven**

Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

**Happyjew**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

Not if he has Iron Arm

**The Infinite**

PrinceRaven wrote:
TheKbob wrote:
an overcosted flyer

I think the point he's making is you have the option to strength 8 if you want to be able to instant kill toughness 4, and that while choosing not to may make good tactical sense, you have to accept the inherent weaknesses of doing so, just like any other army. I could choose to take a horde Tyranid list with no Flyrants, which would be quite weak to Valkyries, and I'd have to accept that, rather than complain about it on a forum.

Yes, thank you that was a much better way of putting across my point, sorry if I came across a little snarky.

Options and choices are fun, they are integral to what makes the game worth playing in the first place and they start right at the list building stage. If you go for maximum efficiency you have to make a great deal of assumptions about what you're likely to be facing, any opponents that field forces that lie outside of your maximum-efficiency-window will cause problems that you will have to overcome or neutralise. Simply put, choose to be ready for the unexpected or not, but if you pick the latter, you've got no-one to blame but yourself.

**MarkyMark**

I do hate the doom!.

As said it may or may not be a psyhic power but as there is no psyhic test it cannot be DTW.

Played against the doom on Sunday, failed one test by 4 which my TH SS tanked all four and the other squad passed and proceeded to put four krak missiles into his squishy head he died then the rest of the Nid force soon followed.

Doom really put a crapper on me the first time I played him, not relising it is every shooting phase (opponent 'forgot' to mention this as I move my libby away from the squad he was with to charge the doom), and not relising I could get cover saves, my poor techmarine in bolstered ruins was pretty screwed without cover saves!, again my opponent didnt bother telling me, at that point I had been playing for little over a month.

**PrinceRaven**

Happyjew wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

Not if he has Iron Arm

Hm, trying for Iron Arm against standard tournament Necron lists might actually be a good idea if you don't think they'd be able to kill the Doom the turn it arrives, on the other hand it's only a 1 in 6 chance so you'd normally end up defaulting to Smite which doesn't hold a candle to cataclysm.

**Tyragorn**

Happyjew wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

Not if he has Iron Arm

Why would you switch out his normal power? It's a pretty amazing offensive weapon even at S8.

**rigeld2**

Tyragorn wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

Not if he has Iron Arm

Why would you switch out his normal power? It's a pretty amazing offensive weapon even at S8.

I do all the time. Cataclysm is good but I'd rather try for Enfeeble (to help out the rest of the army) or Iron Arm. Smite as a fallack still gets me wounds.

**Happyjew**

Iron Arm - grants EW
Enfeeble - knocks down enemies Toughness
Endurance - FNP and IWND
Life Leech - deals Wounds and regenerates wounds lost
Warp Speed - Extra attacks
Haemorrhage - has done more damage then Spirit Leech...

**rigeld2**

Life Leech, WS, and Haem I'll usually drop for Smite, but yeah. That's normally why I roll on the BRB tables. Cataclysm is fun, but the other stuff is normally more useful.

**Bloodhorror**

how does Life Leech work and It Will not die work for Wound Regeneration on doom?

**Happyjew**

At the end of his turn, if the Doom is below 4 Wounds (starting) he can regenerate one wound via IWND.
For Life Leech, since there are 2 effects happening concurrently (regenerating wounds, gaining wounds from Absorb Life, the current player whose turn it is chooses order. So if the Doom was down to 2 Wounds, and Life Leech caused 2 wounds, you could either apply life leech first (regenerating 2 Wounds) and then AL (leaving you at 6), or you could apply AL first, raising you to 4, and then Life Leech does nothing.

**rigeld2**

Life Leech doing normal wounds can add to his wound total. It cannot "Leech" a wound if he's above his starting wounds however.

(example - Doom is at 2 wounds and hits and wounds once with Life Leech. That wound caused gives him 1 wound for being the Doom and 1 wound for being caused with Life Leech, so Doom is at 4 wounds now)

**vossyvo**

I was running the Doom in my list a few games back when the FAQ hit about models in a unit that are outside of the max range of a shooting attacking not been able to have wounds allocated to them.

Does this apply to the small range on the Dooms Life Leech? or does that only apply to shooting attacks? I couldn't see him been very effective if it does.

**DeathReaper**

vossyvo wrote:
I was running the Doom in my list a few games back when the FAQ hit about models in a unit that are outside of the max range of a shooting attacking not been able to have wounds allocated to them.

Does this apply to the small range on the Dooms Life Leech? or does that only apply to shooting attacks? I couldn't see him been very effective if it does.

It applies to the dooms attack as well.

This is because you have to use the shooting rules to resolve the wounds on the target unit if the ability is going to work at all.

**PrinceRaven**

Happyjew wrote:At the end of his turn, if the Doom is below 4 Wounds (starting) he can regenerate one wound via IWND.
For Life Leech, since there are 2 effects happening concurrently (regenerating wounds, gaining wounds from Absorb Life, the current player whose turn it is chooses order. So if the Doom was down to 2 Wounds, and Life Leech caused 2 wounds, you could either apply life leech first (regenerating 2 Wounds) and then AL (leaving you at 6), or you could apply AL first, raising you to 4, and then Life Leech does nothing.

How are you gaining 2 wounds from Life Leech?

vossyvo wrote:I was running the Doom in my list a few games back when the FAQ hit about models in a unit that are outside of the max range of a shooting attacking not been able to have wounds allocated to them.

Does this apply to the small range on the Dooms Life Leech? or does that only apply to shooting attacks? I couldn't see him been very effective if it does.

As it's not a shooting attack, rules about shooting attacks are irrelevant, so the FAQ doesn't apply.

**nosferatu1001**

Then you have no ability to roll to wound, and then allocate wounds, as these are all under the Shooting section.

**PrinceRaven**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you have no ability to roll to wound, and then allocate wounds, as these are all under the Shooting section.

RAW, yes. But as that's

stupid, a reasonable opponent would allow you to allocate wounds (which of course then brings up the question of how) It's pretty much the same situation Vector Strikes used to be in.

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, so a rasonable opponent should also expect you to use ALL the shooting rules, not just the ones you WANT to use - meaning Out of Range and Out of Sight would also apply