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Is the Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech ability susceptible to Kharn the Betrayer’s Deny 2+ deny the witch?
Leech life is 3D6 (leadership or morale??) If it is morale then kharne and his unit are also fearless so auto pass.. Correct?

And when Kharne and the are within 6" leech life (shooting and close combat) they get to roll a burn da witch?
So i assume Spirit Leech is a Nova Type Psycher ability. When doom casts a blessing (FNP or something) on himself, it does not get to use a Second pyscher power in the shooting phase?

FAQ 1.2:
Q: When a Tyranid model with the regeneration biomorph (including Old One Eye’s Rapid Regeneration) rolls to recover lost wounds, can it attempt to recover wounds suffered in the battle that have already been regenerated? (p84)
A: No. When rolling to regenerate woundsroll a number of dice equal to the difference between the model’s current number of Wounds and its starting number of Wounds.

I do not understand this.. So if Doom is gaining WOUNDS from my Kharne unit affected by leech life.. How many can he gain back. Kharne and the Beserker champ through shooting and 3 turns of assault dealt 7+ wounds. (Doom never lost his final wound.)

Doom of Malan’tai considered to be a Zoanthrope for the purposes of Warp Field.
Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is the Doom of Malantai? (p58) A: Mastery Level 1.

You are mixing up a lot of rules.

The special rule that the Doom has (Spirit Leech), is no Psychic power. You get no deny the witch against it. Also, this is not a regenerate power, so the FAQ quote you gave doesn't comment on the Doom's power.

The Doom is also a level 1 psycker, so you can give it the codex power or one power from Biomancy, Telepathy or Telekinesis. These powers are psychic powers, so your enemy will get deny the witch against them.

 Pause Game wrote:
Is the Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech ability susceptible to Kharn the Betrayer’s Deny 2+ deny the witch?
Leech life is 3D6 (leadership or morale??) If it is morale then kharne and his unit are also fearless so auto pass.. Correct?

And when Kharne and the are within 6" leech life (shooting and close combat) they get to roll a burn da witch?
So i assume Spirit Leech is a Nova Type Psycher ability. When doom casts a blessing (FNP or something) on himself, it does not get to use a Second pyscher power in the shooting phase?

FAQ 1.2:
Q: When a Tyranid model with the regeneration biomorph (including Old One Eye’s Rapid Regeneration) rolls to recover lost wounds, can it attempt to recover wounds suffered in the battle that have already been regenerated? (p84)
A: No. When rolling to regenerate woundsroll a number of dice equal to the difference between the model’s current number of Wounds and its starting number of Wounds.

I do not understand this.. So if Doom is gaining WOUNDS from my Kharne unit affected by leech life.. How many can he gain back. Kharne and the Beserker champ through shooting and 3 turns of assault dealt 7+ wounds. (Doom never lost his final wound.)

Doom of Malan’tai considered to be a Zoanthrope for the purposes of Warp Field.
Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is the Doom of Malantai? (p58) A: Mastery Level 1.

Spirit Leech is not a Psychic Power, it is a special rule. So no Deny the Witch or Burn the Witch. Spirit Leech is not Leech Life, nor is it a Nova power. Nor is it a Regeneration biomorph.

If you are withink 6" of the Doom at the start of Shooting, you take a 3D6 Leadership (not morale) test. Each point you fail by is a wound on that unit, with no armour saves (cover and invuln are allowed). Each wound caused by Spirit Leech, the Doom gains, up to a max of 10.

And as far as I know, Spirit Leech still affects units that are locked in combat if they are within 6" of the Doom, even if they are in combat WITH the Doom.

Thank you,
So special rule (Spirit leech) causes units within 6 inches to take a ...
3d6 leadership test subtracted from leadership (10). The number of wounds in this case are rolls above 10. these wounds ... grant Doom +1 Wounds

Doom and Kharne are in a challenge.. Are the wounds inflected between challenger and challengee?

 Pause Game wrote:
Thank you,
So special rule (Spirit leech) causes units within 6 inches to take a ...
3d6 leadership test subtracted from leadership (10). The number of wounds in this case are rolls above 10. these wounds ... grant Doom +1 Wounds

Doom and Kharne are in a challenge.. Are the wounds inflected between challenger and challengee?

Indeed. Each point above your LD10 you are on 3D6 = a wound for the Doom.

Im not sure if the Doom is a Character off the top of my head. But if he is, and therefore can be challenged, then any units with 6" will still be affected anyway, so this would still affect Kharn and his unit (as far as I know)

 Pause Game wrote:
[...]When doom casts a blessing (FNP or something) on himself, it does not get to use a Second pyscher power in the shooting phase?[...]

Since the Doom is a level 1 psycker, it generates 1 warp charge per turn. As such, it can never use two psychic powers per turn. Again, the Spirit Leech power is not a psychic power.

 Pause Game wrote:
Thank you,
So special rule (Spirit leech) causes units within 6 inches to take a ...
3d6 leadership test subtracted from leadership (10). The number of wounds in this case are rolls above 10. these wounds ... grant Doom +1 Wounds

Doom and Kharne are in a challenge.. Are the wounds inflected between challenger and challengee?

Kharne's unit would still have to roll and suffer wounds - Spirit Leech has nothing to do with close combat.

It'd be useful to read the ability from the Tyranid codex - if you don't have one, ask to borrow your opponents.

Im not sure if the Doom is a Character off the top of my head. But if he is, and therefore can be challenged, then any units with 6" will still be affected anyway, so this would still affect Kharn and his unit (as far as I know)

Doom is not a character, so he can't be challenged. only tyrants, tervigons, PoM and warrior/trygon primes are characters in the nids codex.

Quite a few people now switch out the blasty-blas power for telepathy now adays, so expect to take a fair amount of hurting from the doom. He is without a doubt the best model in the game that costs <100 pts. If you want to get real technical, he costs 140 points, because every nid player with their salt puts him in a pod with a tl-deathspitter.

 StarHunter25 wrote:

Im not sure if the Doom is a Character off the top of my head. But if he is, and therefore can be challenged, then any units with 6" will still be affected anyway, so this would still affect Kharn and his unit (as far as I know)

Doom is not a character, so he can't be challenged. only tyrants, tervigons, PoM and warrior/trygon primes are characters in the nids codex.

That's false. As a special character he is a character and can be challenged.

 StarHunter25 wrote:
Only tyrants, tervigons, PoM and warrior/trygon primes are characters in the nids codex.

To add on to this list: Swarmlord, Deathleaper, Doom of Malan'tai, Broodlords, and Old One Eye.

@rigeld - as his opponent for said game, I did give him my codex so he could review the rule. I then explained that the Doom only has 1 power - Cataclysm, which I swapped out for a roll on Biomancy, getting Endurance.

^^^ whats up buddy ??!?!? This did not make sense to me so ive been digging. check out the barrage rule


Tyranid 5E codex page 33: Tyranid Psykers. ... .."They do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather harness a fraction of the Hive Mind gestalt will. This makes no difference for game purposes and these models still follow all normal rules for psykers.. peril of warp.... The rules and descriptions of the different psychic abilities are described in the tyanid psychic powers section which can be found on page 62."

Tyranid Codex pg 58: Doom of Malan'tai - ......"The Doom of Malan'tai focused its considerable psychic might and absorbed the life-energy of all those around it."
BRB Special Rules page 32: " ......What special rules do i have? > "..special rules are given to a model in the relevant entry in its codex. > "Similarly a model might "get special rules as the result of psychic powers, > where this is the case the rule that governs this psychic power, scenario, terrain will be clear
FAQ 1.2 Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is the Doom of Malantai? (p58) A: Mastery Level 1.

Special Rule > "Psychic Attach" > Spirit Leech:(abbreviated) at the beginning of every shooting phase including foes, applicable units w/in range of doom takes a 3D6 Leadership test, deal wounds no armor saves allowed

BRB page 68: Types of Psychic Powers > Powers without a type > "Powers without a Type" if a psychic power does not have a type the rules for using it will be clearly expressed within its entry.

<Aside...."IMO Spirit Leech sounds like the NOVA type" -> Auto hits all units within psychic power max range regardless locked in combat, intervening toy soldiers, otherwise is treated as shooting attack. .... Sounds familiar to me.
There is no question that doom does NOT have to use a warp charge for spirit leech, coz because it is specifically stated the it can use more powers each turn that it actually knows.(pg 66. establishing a mastery level). >

Regardless of type -> at any shooting attack phase, units are affected by psychic special rule spirit leech

Independent character:
BRB page 63 (small DV rulebook): Characters > Character types > Independent Characters " some characters have the endependent character spectial rule, which allows them to join other units(see page 39)
Doom > Unit Type: infantry

Argument: That the word psychic is impossible to spell...

1. Deny the witch
Kharn & attached/joined Khorne Bezerker unit receive the special rule: Blessing of the Blood God "Kharn and his unit always pass their Burn do Witch roll on established result... (found in codex)" CSM code 59.

2. Kharn and entire unit can strike blows upon Doom, coz this infantry unit (Doom also FAQ as zoanthrope) is not an independent character.
Karn has special rule "independent character" his unit has a Skull champ of chaos ..... The Doom of Malan'tai does not mention the independent character special rule.


Gonna go watch Monty Python after all this "is it a witch thinking."

 Pause Game wrote:
Tyranid 5E codex page 33: Tyranid Psykers. ... .."They do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather harness a fraction of the Hive Mind gestalt will. This makes no difference for game purposes and these models still follow all normal rules for psykers.. peril of warp.... The rules and descriptions of the different psychic abilities are described in the tyanid psychic powers section which can be found on page 62."

Which is irrelevant because it's not a psychic power...

Tyranid Codex pg 58: Doom of Malan'tai - ......"The Doom of Malan'tai focused its considerable psychic might and absorbed the life-energy of all those around it."

Fluff description.

BRB Special Rules page 32: " ......What special rules do i have? > "..special rules are given to a model in the relevant entry in its codex. > "Similarly a model might "get special rules as the result of psychic powers, > where this is the case the rule that governs this psychic power, scenario, terrain will be clear
FAQ 1.2 Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is the Doom of Malantai? (p58) A: Mastery Level 1.

Yup. What is Spirit Leech listed as?

Special Rule > "Psychic Attach" > Spirit Leech:(abbreviated) at the beginning of every shooting phase including foes, applicable units w/in range of doom takes a 3D6 Leadership test, deal wounds no armor saves allowed

That's not what it says. It says "Special Rules: stuff, blah, Spirit Leech: blahblah".

BRB page 68: Types of Psychic Powers > Powers without a type > "Powers without a Type" if a psychic power does not have a type the rules for using it will be clearly expressed within its entry.

Page 58 of the Tyranid codex - there's a large difference between Special Rules and Psychic Powers.

<Aside...."IMO Spirit Leech sounds like the NOVA type" -> Auto hits all units within psychic power max range regardless locked in combat, intervening toy soldiers, otherwise is treated as shooting attack. .... Sounds familiar to me.

It's similar to a Nova. It's not a Psychic Power.

Independent character:
BRB page 63 (small DV rulebook): Characters > Character types > Independent Characters " some characters have the endependent character spectial rule, which allows them to join other units(see page 39)
Doom > Unit Type: infantry

He's not an independent Character. He's a special character. Page 110 BRB.

1. Deny the witch
Kharn & attached/joined Khorne Bezerker unit receive the special rule: Blessing of the Blood God "Kharn and his unit always pass their Burn do Witch roll on established result... (found in codex)" CSM code 59.

If Spirit Leech was a psychic power yes you could deny it on a 2+.

2. Kharn and entire unit can strike blows upon Doom, coz this infantry unit (Doom also FAQ as zoanthrope) is not an independent character.
Karn has special rule "independent character" his unit has a Skull champ of chaos ..... The Doom of Malan'tai does not mention the independent character special rule.

It is not an Independent Character, it is a special character like Mephiston.

Simply put Pause Game... Spirit Leech is NOT a psychic power.

Now .... carry on.

And all wounds caused by Doom regains him wounds, not just the ones from spirit leech.

I hate the Doom... if you don't bring ID weapons or S8, sucks to be you!

And yes, it'd not a Psychic power. And woe be the player who has to fight Doom that has Iron Arm.

How often do you have a whole army without at least a couple s8 weapons?

short answer. no.

I don't understand why everybody complains about the Doom.. It's one of the few good models in the Nid codex. Suck it up and deal with it!

It doesn't need to be nerfed, and it's not overpowered. It's only TRULY amazing in certain situations. You think people would just accept it by now, it's not like its new or anything.

 Bookwrack wrote:
How often do you have a whole army without at least a couple s8 weapons?

Necrons, Chaos Space Marines, ... a lot of the current "Meta" armies focus on S7 fire power saturation vs higher (S8+) shots.

 Adamantium wrote:
I don't understand why everybody complains about the Doom.. It's one of the few good models in the Nid codex. Suck it up and deal with it!

It doesn't need to be nerfed, and it's not overpowered. It's only TRULY amazing in certain situations. You think people would just accept it by now, it's not like its new or anything.

Except when you're always playing against it and it eats Grey Hunter squads like no tomorrow. *sigh* I have this proposition to make: Nerf Doom, make the rest of the Codex better! (I want to run a Genestealer / Warrior army!)

 TheKbob wrote:

Except when you're always playing against it

If you're "always playing against it" and haven't figured out how to deal with, the problem would seem to be you...

helotaxi wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Except when you're always playing against it

If you're "always playing against it" and haven't figured out how to deal with, the problem would seem to be you...

Yea, if you mean I have to hide in Rhinos or area terrain, separate out my forces so they are thinned, less effective just because of one model in the opponents army that doesn't scatter on DS very much.

TOTALLY WITH ME, YO. I absolutely have no idea what I'm talking about....

*sigh* Thing also has a 3++, so it can shrug off all the S8 I put into it. The only thing that can remotely lock it in combat is one of my Lone Wolves, and even then, 3++ save, the dude has to GET THERE (which my opponent is not going to DS the Doom near my Chainfist hug-buddies).

It's an extremely overpowered single model that does a lot for what it does with no down side or counter. I could get an Icarus Lascannon and hope to one shot it... oh wait, they hide the doom behind the pod and I can't see it. Nevermind!

There would be no advatangeous reason for Kharn to challenge the Doom other than he or possibly another Champion of Chaos would have to if Doom did count as a character. Everybody gets to swing at him in melee which is what you want,

H is a character so Kharn (or someone else) would have to lock him up in CC. Which is exactly what the Doom wants. Yummy souls.

'H'?

He. Stupid iPad keyboard.

Heh. Okay.

All of the above is absolutely spot on. You can't Deny the Witch it because it's not a psychic attack. This comes up all the time on these forums and doesn't need any more FAQ's to clear up. Spirit Leech is a Special Rule, it's used automatically every turn unless you choose not to or forget (which would be silly) and you can then cast your psychic power, too. Simples.

Yes he can be a nightmare to deal with if you didn't bring the tools but that's half the fun of it, it presents a tactical challenge. If you come to the table without any S8+ weapons then how do you ever propose to take down Land Raiders or Monoliths? A T4 single model should be the least of your worries.

I've had the dude fielded against me on numerous occasions and although he can be a huge threat if left unchecked, I make sure that he very rarely makes any real impact before he's removed from play. Generally he'll make his points cost back upon arrival, immediately leeching wounds straight out of his pod, but after that he's a sitting duck for my Plasma Cannons, CC Dreadknights and pretty much every other model in my army who are all wielding Force Weapons.

The last time he was fielded against me my opponent forgot about my ADL with Quad Gun and his Doom promply died upon arrival. He was an angry panda.

You'd have to be Lucky, or he has to be really unlucky, to take down Doom with a Quad gun...

Starting on 4 wounds, you'd need to hit 4 times, wound 4 times and have Doom fail all 4 of his 3++ Saves.

Bloodhorror wrote:
You'd have to be Lucky, or he has to be really unlucky, to take down Doom with a Quad gun...

Starting on 4 wounds, you'd need to hit 4 times, wound 4 times and have Doom fail all 4 of his 3++ Saves.

Hitting and wounding is not the tough part as the gun is Twin Linked and wounds on a 2+

The tough part is getting the doom to fail 4 3up saves.

A Icarus Lascannon can do it if the Doom fails 1 3up save though, so it has a slightly better chance of it.

Enceladus wrote:

Yes he can be a nightmare to deal with if you didn't bring the tools but that's half the fun of it, it presents a tactical challenge. If you come to the table without any S8+ weapons then how do you ever propose to take down Land Raiders or Monoliths? A T4 single model should be the least of your worries.

How? Necrons can rock out a Land Raider or other Av14 without having S8+ weapons. Guass, S6 + Rending, S7 + Armour Bane. Actually most Necron comp lists are lacking in S8+.

However, they are Ld10 and less scared of the Doom.