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There are a lot of people in here proving my point. Whilst there is evidence of it being Magnus, it's only hinted, there's clues for other lineage there too, people just see the stronger hints and decide these must be right. But as A D-B said on B&C, you can't take what a character in a story says as a fact, it's mostly in-universe speculation. And he knows what he's talking about, this is the guy who wrote the bit about the UM absorbing a lost legion, and he's confirmed that this is balls, it's in-universe speculation, as are most 'facts' about the Blood Ravens.

 Kain wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Nope- they are not from TS cause red boyz were COOL...*duck for cover*

Anyway there are "hints" , but there are "if's" also...

chapter founding (Pre-early M37 IIRC), flash change, and 4th fellowship (who have renounced Magnus) was attacked by WE upon returning to Prospero....


IMO they are like mssing primarchs....majority of people think that one legion is purged by Russ and other added to UM...it is hinted, but never comfirmed by GW....

I'm having some difficulty deciphering what you're saying.

Simply said there are questions like : what, why and how, which need to be answered...

BR don't have genetic flaw being the biggest....Well maybe "I" did advanced in bio-manipulaton





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
There are a lot of people in here proving my point. Whilst there is evidence of it being Magnus, it's only hinted, there's clues for other lineage there too, people just see the stronger hints and decide these must be right. But as A D-B said on B&C, you can't take what a character in a story says as a fact, it's mostly in-universe speculation. And he knows what he's talking about, this is the guy who wrote the bit about the UM absorbing a lost legion, and he's confirmed that this is balls, it's in-universe speculation, as are most 'facts' about the Blood Ravens.

This was my point too....You can belive what you want to belive, but until GW goes out of hints - I will reserve my judgment....

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I voted for Magnus the Red. Either they were founded using stabilized Thousand Sons gene-seed, or they were from loyalist Thousand Sons that joined up with the Ultramarines.

You know why this doesn't work, right? You've read "A Thousand Sons"? Not even counting the whole "Rubric of Ahriman" thing or how the after-effects of that would affect the Thousand Sons at large.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Lol

As I recall, he hates the idea because it sounds like a badly-written 'homebrew' army's fluff.

Yeah...no. If you've read his postings on the topic, it is less "badly-written homebrew army fluff" and more or less down to the fact that what started out with an Index Astartes article that gave no special mentions to the Thousand Sons (beyond a small tidbit pointing out that the Blood Ravens' behavior in warfareresembled that of the Thousand Sons--which in turn led to a bit about how the Blood Ravens should heed that example and how it turned out) has suddenly been flipped on its head by a single author (Graham McNeill) deciding that his speculation (the Thousand Sons are the primogenitor of the Blood Ravens) is the way it should be.

It has led to the whole "Ravens of Blood" prophecy and McNeill posting a few times in support of the theory without making mention of the fact that it only reads that way because he wanted it to read that way.

Even a cursory search for any number of the hundreds of topics on this very subject would show you why this topic is so blatantly ridiculous to deal with in a sensible manner.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I voted for Magnus the Red. Either they were founded using stabilized Thousand Sons gene-seed, or they were from loyalist Thousand Sons that joined up with the Ultramarines.

You know why this doesn't work, right? You've read "A Thousand Sons"? Not even counting the whole "Rubric of Ahriman" thing or how the after-effects of that would affect the Thousand Sons at large.

Spoiler:

More or less the only thing which was "stabilizing" the Thousand Sons gene-seed and preventing the flesh change was Tzeentch.

More like he was causing it to force Magnus to join him and later Ahriman to use the Rubric. He got what he wanted, so there's no further need for the flesh-change. The loyalists can do what they want, they don't even know who they are. How ironic, and they call themselves the 'Seekers of Truth'. At least that's how I see it. Assuming the opposite of what Tzeentch says as the truth is a good way to see through him...maybe.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Lol

As I recall, he hates the idea because it sounds like a badly-written 'homebrew' army's fluff.

Yeah...no. If you've read his postings on the topic, it is less "badly-written homebrew army fluff" and more or less down to the fact that what started out with an Index Astartes article that gave no special mentions to the Thousand Sons (beyond a small tidbit pointing out that the Blood Ravens' behavior in warfareresembled that of the Thousand Sons--which in turn led to a bit about how the Blood Ravens should heed that example and how it turned out) has suddenly been flipped on its head by a single author (Graham McNeill) deciding that his speculation (the Thousand Sons are the primogenitor of the Blood Ravens) is the way it should be.

It has led to the whole "Ravens of Blood" prophecy and McNeill posting a few times in support of the theory without making mention of the fact that it only reads that way because he wanted it to read that way.

Even a cursory search for any number of the hundreds of topics on this very subject would show you why this topic is so blatantly ridiculous to deal with in a sensible manner.

other added to UM...it is hinted, but never comfirmed by GW...

Actually is has been confirmed that that is not true


I like how people like to quote one book in which 2 marines are talking and one mentions a crazy rumor but they ignore the 3 stories where Dorn and Malcador discuss the fate of the lost and if they could use them in the current war or not.

I know there have been a convoy of dump trucks loaded with hints about the Blood Ravens having come from the Thousand Son's, but on a gene seed level I do not believe it.
As far as I know there have been no incidents of the dreaded flesh change amongst the Blood Ravens that was so rife and 'ruinious' with the Thousand Sons.
This alone is a huge reason to look elsewhere for their gene father.

For all we know it could be a situation like Loken and that would make them related to the Grey Knights or even Horus.
Many have suggested Rogal Dorn as a likely candidate as well.
Of course it could also be as mysterious as one of the missing primarchs like those that supposedly increased the ranks of the Ultramarines.
I find it interesting that the Blood Ravens scheme is close to that of the Son's of Orar, since they are mentioned as having taken the famous Captain Orar form the Ultramarines as their spiritual patriarch (not to be confused with Primarch) and yet the Ultramarines themselves have no records of these guys being sired from them. So maybe the Son's of Orar are from one of the missing primarchs and they and the Blood Ravens are gene related?

I am starting to lean towards an undiscovered primarch, thinking about it, no one just plum forgets who their "daddy" is, so for them to not know it would have to be either a cover up by the BR or their primarch was never found

 Super Ready wrote:
One of the reasons for the theory of Dorn being Primarch is that a couple of relics bearing his name turn up as wargear items in DoW2. I don't recall any other Primarch names on wargear either.

Blood Magpies

read the Entire page but the bottom is where its at.

 Zakiriel wrote:
I know there have been a convoy of dump trucks loaded with hints about the Blood Ravens having come from the Thousand Son's, but on a gene seed level I do not believe it.
As far as I know there have been no incidents of the dreaded flesh change amongst the Blood Ravens that was so rife and 'ruinious' with the Thousand Sons.
This alone is a huge reason to look elsewhere for their gene father.

This assumes that the flesh change is a geneseed problem and not the hand of Tzeentch turning it on and off at his leisure.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
One of the reasons for the theory of Dorn being Primarch is that a couple of relics bearing his name turn up as wargear items in DoW2. I don't recall any other Primarch names on wargear either.

Blood Magpies

read the Entire page but the bottom is where its at.

The Blood Ravens just seem to have a certain sort of luck. Although they don't quite have the plot armor of the Ultramarines. I mean, they'd need to be lucky to wind up with all this nice wargear and come out of the whole mess Kyras started relatively intact.

Fourth Fellowship.

jareddm wrote:

 Zakiriel wrote:
I know there have been a convoy of dump trucks loaded with hints about the Blood Ravens having come from the Thousand Son's, but on a gene seed level I do not believe it.
As far as I know there have been no incidents of the dreaded flesh change amongst the Blood Ravens that was so rife and 'ruinious' with the Thousand Sons.
This alone is a huge reason to look elsewhere for their gene father.

This assumes that the flesh change is a geneseed problem and not the hand of Tzeentch turning it on and off at his leisure.

I agree. Personally, I believe Tzeentch was always behind the flesh-change, and not the gene-seed. He simply had no further use for it once Magnus and most of his legion had joined Chaos, and again when Ahriman unleashed the Rubric. Besides, haven't you realized how amused Tzeentch would be with knowledge-seekers having no knowledge of who they really are? Pretty good incentive for him not to invoke the flesh-change against Thousand Sons loyalists/Blood Ravens.

^Huh???
IIRC, flash change continued to hurt the TS even after they were in Tzeench's grasp....
Anyway it is even stated by that deamon FING (if you belive deamons )that the mutation was mearly postponed :



But interesting theory, I'll give you that....

I'd rather not listen to el demonio.

The flesh change exists because Magnus made a deal with Tzeench to stop it, therefore giving Tzeench the power to cause it in the first place.

^ You mean like some sort of paradox ?

But the real question is the "origins" of the mutation...

IIRC EC were almost wiped too...SW, BA and SALIES had their bits of muty - muty....

Tzeentch.

The story of the Thousand Sons is bound to the annals of Destiny, as weaved by the Architect of Fate itself.

Magnus always had only one eye, he always was the greatest Champion of Tzeentch, the Thousand Sons were granted the Flesh Change the moment Magnus sealed a pact with Tzeentch. And the Thousand Sons were always going to number a thousand.

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ You mean like some sort of paradox ?

But the real question is the "origins" of the mutation...

When Magnus sacrificed his eye, it was as if he never had it and everyone always remembered him as having one. Same thing with the flesh change.

Space time continuum transfunctioner then ....interesting.....this is a real defintion of paradox...

I always wondered, was this Tzeench who speaks with Magnus ?



Or some other entity?

It is pretty clearly Tzeentch.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It is pretty clearly Tzeentch.

This was my first thought - but there is an entity which is called Choronzon too :
*which has simillar traits with Tzeench*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choronzon

That's just McNeill putting IRL names onto fictional entities. He does it often.

So @Valerian do you belive Tzeench, then ?

 DarthMarko wrote:
So @Valerian do you belive Tzeench, then ?

No. Whether IRL or in 40k, there is no such thing as 'fate', especially for Humans. Its one reason why Eldar hate Humans so much, and why Chaos both prizes and fears Humanity; Humans are Chaos made flesh. We change so quickly, so anarchic in nature, that we're like thorns, popping the 'bubbles' of fate the Farseers try to sculpt and the gods mold.

Only the Necrons are unbound from the chains of destiny.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Only the Necrons are unbound from the chains of destiny.

I didn't say Humans aren't unbound. More like Humans cause the chains to twist and coil in completely unexpected directions. In 40k at least; IRL, we are who we choose to be. Limitless potential.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Only the Necrons are unbound from the chains of destiny.

IRL, we are who we choose to be. Limitless potential.

And we are sitting in front of monitors, discussing a game based fantasy stories....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Only the Necrons are unbound from the chains of destiny.

IRL, we are who we choose to be. Limitless potential.

And we are sitting in front of monitors, discussing a game based fantasy stories....

Tzeentch can ramble as much as he wants, but he would so utterly shocked to discover that he is just a pawn, a pawn of several men sitting around a wooden table in a room in a building in the UK, drinking coffee and eating doughnuts, discussing what sounds good to print, what looks cool on the TT, and what makes the most money. Then he will scream and start babbling "I SEE THEM! THE FIRST, THE ONES WHO MADE US ALL! IT CANNOT BE BUT IT MUST BE! AND I SAW HIM..HE WHO WRITES OUR DOOM...MATT WARD..."

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
I am starting to lean towards an undiscovered primarch, thinking about it, no one just plum forgets who their "daddy" is, so for them to not know it would have to be either a cover up by the BR or their primarch was never found

They're not a Founding Legion.

They have no "Primarch" of their own.

Most people seem to believe it's the Thousand Sons. They are very magically attuned, they have the ire of the Space Wolves due to their sossery, they have lots of equipment looted from the battlefield which they name after other chapters heroes (I hope) and they seem to be alive by a miracle. And for the discounters, I mean the Thousand Sons were able to cure their affliction with psoriasis, the same goes for the Blood Ravens.