Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Thaylen wrote:

Your forgot the Flyer sub-phase.
you have 0 flyers and they have 2 or more you lose
you have 1 flyer and they have 3 or more you lose

This is bull. You don't need flyers to succeed. They are just another unit type you have to account for, like AV 14.

You need AA solutions, which may or may not be flyer based.

This is true. Flyers are a unit type that needs to be countered just like any other unit.

On sunday I played a game against a long time player at my local club I am quite competitive and this is reflected in my lists so I decided to do a fluffy ish list, basically 30 terminators with belial, 28 bikers with sammael libby and chappie on bike 4 land speeders, 3 typhoons and 1 vengeance and the two DA flyers. Reason for flyers vengeance and chappie is I havent had a chance to use them yet,

I was against 4k pts of Nids, he outnumbered me over 2 to 1 to start with and during the game thanks to the tervigons, 3 to 1 so it was a tall order, I knew I couldnt outshoot his army or beat all that in CC so before the game I knew what I had to do

Basically my tactic was to roll down one flank and shoot at what I could kill and charge whats left while trying to stay outside of his big gribblies, overall he had 7 MC's which would tear through the bikers like no tomorrow!.

My tactic there was to pick the fights I could win, in the end he feed units to me piece meal as they were coming from the other side of the board negating their short range firepower and charges.

I do think good players have good lists, doesnt have to have many tricks or combos in there but it needs good scoring good firepower and counter attack units to be pretty broad.

There is also play a game and playing the mission, I didnt get this at first until I faced a few good tourny players, missions like the relic and emperors will usually come down to secondary kill points so you need to think about what unit is going to get you first blood, which unit is going to cost you first blood, how will you protect your warlord and which units are fast enough to get you line breaker.

When writing marine lists I usually include 5 combi melta sternguard in a drop pod for first blood against vehicles, and for that reason I hardly include vehicles in my competitive lists, quad guns are also good for getting you that first blood, managed to get it against a drop pod last night.

There are a few good list building guides out there, you should have a read of those and go from there.

Maybe he means "heldrakes".

 varl wrote:
morning dakka,

I'm looking for suggestions on how I can be a better player. obviously, playing more games is at the top of my list I watch a fair number of batreps, but there's often not a lot of tactical discussion in most of them. I also regularly read through the tactics and army list forums here on dakka. what else could I be doing to improve? are there any books on tactics or military history that might be useful here? other suggestions?

1) A book on chess will take you further than a book on military tactics. 40k is closer to chess than real battle.
2) Take pictures of your games with your phone. Each turn take pics at the top of the turn and at the bottom of the turn. Review your pics later that week and ponder what you could have done better during the game.
3) You learn more from losing than winning. Find players who can beat you instead of you beating all the time. They are out there. Playing more games is good, learning from those games is better.
4) Ask your opponent what you had/did that caused him problems. What you did/had right is just as important as what you had/did wrong.
5) Make reminder cards to help you. Look at them every turn. Something like "Play to the objectives". Its easy to lose focus in a game. Reminder cards can keep you on track.

List Hammering aside, here's a couple things to think about.

1. Deployment is the most important part of executing a strategy. Can't make a plan happen if you're out of position.
Generally, I recommend deploying in as many ways as possible. Have a DS unit. Have an infiltrator/Scout unit. Have an outflanker ( and preferably 2).
Why bother? well the trouble you run into is, many armies have artillery. You need to knock it out and your devs will be the first thing the enemy tries to knock out if they HAVE artillery! Many have fast moving armies. You want to slow them down. many armies try to knock out a critical piece of your puzzle early. DSing or reserving it to ensure it can do its job when most needed can be critical even if it has to wait a round or two to do its thing.
In short, not only do you want to deploy well but you want to be ABLE to deploy anywhere.

Its near ipossible to stop you rom getting LineBreaker when you do this. Its near impossible for enemies to push all the way forward with euverything when they know you can get behind them.

All these different deployment options help TAKE AWAY some of the strength of the enemy without firing a shot. I think mobility is so so important to an army. My own victories are always very much tied to the enemies inability to "shoot first" at what matters. going second is never a problem when you plan the army this way and there wont ever be a time when you say "damn i wish I had...".
The Relic mission is a great example of why having fast moving and flexibly deploying units is huge.

2. Fading. If you imagine two units heading towards one another, and then one takes a sharp 45 degree angle and runs instead of shooting, what it has done is forced a choice o nthe enemy: lose forward momentum to come get me OR let me go. If they come to follow, you've now gained the advantage of slowing THEM down. now you fade backwards, which takes YET ANOTHER round for them to try and catch up. though your own unit is, of course also losing distance, that doesn't matter if its scoring and fading back to an objective and only one model has to survive in a unit for it to be relevant! 45 degree angles are your friend this also an tangle an enemy into terrain. Space Marines can fall back too which is handy.

So having a unit for each flank that can mislead an enemy is good, preferably scoring so they cant just ignore the feint even when they know it is one. Too risky to let one get back there. You leave their objective behind, seemingly foolishly, but never intending to press to the enemy's. It was a feint. but if shooting goes well, it may NOt be!

3. Time. Games are not unlimited in length. So if you split the enemy into "pools", then it makes it easier to strike suddenly into one of those pools without giving them enough TIME to get back and help. This has to be done by using a HIGHLY survivable damage dealing unit that is minimized in cost, and during deployment, spreading them out and beckoning the enemy to come to them. On one hand, they cant afford to keep lettign the unit do its thing. On the other hand they could just shoot it. But thats not as sure at range, nor more sure than in melee. So they will eventually have to send something over there or face the iconsequences (which is legit if they think they can). As the force begins to split up and go for objectives AND you, each section gets more vulnerable. This is how DS and outflanking units can really shine, by then attacking the weakened portion, like a Cheetah seeks out the weakened antelope. Your patience will be rewarded. =)

4. Dont get in fair fights. There's no point. when your unit is beat, dont throw more in to save what cannot be saved. Let it die and fight elsewhere. When you have the chance to matchup a Vulkan against a 5 man Tac squad OR have him dual the enemy leader... Kill the tac squad. the leader can be brought to heel later, but preserving yours is more imoporitant. if your termies can engage anther termie squad OR a unit of 3+ saves of any kind...kill the 3+ saves. The termies will be over directly.
In other words, dont bend over a dollar to pick up a dime.

5. Kill the enemy troops at all cost. Most units are in fact expendable. Many people build lists with 2-3 troops choices. Certainly not all of them, but people fall in love with their elites and such and need the points. Pay CLOSE attention to where their troops are and blast them endlessly. preserve your own to the end. Once they are dead, you can play the secondaries. So if you have first blood, can outflank safely for line breaker, you dont even need to kill their leader, just the troops.

Think about it: When the troops are dead, all you need do is seek one objective yourself, but you dont even have to do that if you have First Blood and Line breaker. Thats why "alpha strike" capability (the term a lot of people use to describe the ability to try for a first kill with things llike HK missiles and so on) is important. if you can get first blood and avoid giving it up yourself, outflank to line break...then all you need do is kill the troops in 5 turns (or more if you're lucky). Keeping your eye on that ball is key!

I would also suggest that you have some form of ability to disrupt the opponent's plan.

This could be a squad of deepstrikers, an outflanking unit, anything that forces the opponent to react/change their plan. In fact, anything that has the POTENTIAL to do something unexpected will work. Just give the opponent something to worry about - maybe they won't advance as fast, maybe they castle up, whatever - they aren't executing their plan anymore.

Life is easier when you can execute your game plan as you want it. Mess up the plan and it is easy to lose sight of the big picture.

This old saying sums up perfectly..."when you are up to your arse in alligators, it is difficult to remember your initial objective was to drain the swamp".

Now all you need is a couple of (potential) alligators.

Not that I'm by any means an expert but one simple thing I always struggle with is to focus on the victory conditions for each game. Most of the time you don't win just by eliminating enemy units but I often get distracted by trying to get enemy units off the board.

Form a plan for victory and stick to it unless it no longer leads to victory.

I would recommend something to write during your games.
If you notice errors, "funny" things or just random possibilities, you can write them down.
You can also write it down when something goes wrong, just a few notes.

And when you are done with the battle, my biggest advice was to analyse your own match!
Finding your own strenghts and weaknesses is really important.

By doing this I found out that I always seem to miscalculate melee-battles.
Now that I am aware of this, I can pay attention to it and now I am doing a better job.

I would add a few points to those listed. Most tournament players will say games are won during the Movement Phase.

Unit positioning and good movement is the hardest thing to learn. Forums do not explain it well, neither does batreps. While you play really try to focus your concentration on the movement phase. Everything will flow naturally if you move correctly there. Shooting will easier as your weapons will be in range and have clearer lines of sight, assaults fail less often, etc..

Make sure to assign a role to every unit in your army and move them accordingly.

Also I would recommend building a core of your army and playing with that core in the vast majority of your games. Change a unit or two in your games if you wish but keep that core intact. It will really teach you your units potential and you will have a expert knowledge of what it can accomplish.

Tournament players like Tony Kopach and Blackmoor consistently run the same core of their army and routinely beat the players who jump from power army to power army.

Find a list that suits your general playstyle and tweak it until it works for you.

Good luck!