Government sanctioned science... God help us...

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**KalashnikovMarine**

Well this won't end well.

**Kilkrazy**

There is a study that says it will.

**Kovnik Obama**

I'd just like to point out that there are precedents to a healthy and working relationship between the government and the scientific community.

The Vienna scientifical and philosophical communities of the late 19th and early 20th (which were largely overlapping) had to answer to the Ministry of Education. Accreditations were supervised by the minister himself, as well as teachers nomination, and we know of a few times when the emperor himself got involved.

The result was a strong incentive for society's upper echelon to educate themselves.

**daedalus**

But do we know how much research was squashed in Vienna because it was politically inconvenient?

**RatBot**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
I'd just like to point out that there are precedents to a healthy and working relationship between the government and the scientific community.

The Vienna scientifical and philosophical communities of the late 19th and early 20th (which were largely overlapping) had to answer to the Ministry of Education. Accreditations were supervised by the minister himself, as well as teachers nomination, and we know of a few times when the emperor himself got involved.

The result was a strong incentive for society's upper echelon to educate themselves.

Well, yes, but this bill doesn't require oversight from educated people or experts or what have you, but oversight from congressmen who may or may not (most likely the latter) have any scientific knowledge whatsoever.

From the OP:

The bill says that any research done using federal funds (which is the majority of research done in the United States) must have its results and finding approved by the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate and the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology of the House of Representatives.

Congressman Smith has already landed himself in scientific hot water over his April 25th Letter to the National Science Foundation where he demanded that the NSF conduct an investigaton into five research programs which contradict policies his donors want passed. This is what was expected when the noted anti-science Texan was appointed to the Congressional Committee on Science, Space and Technology.

So, this is a fething terrible idea.

**Kovnik Obama**

RatBot wrote:

So, this is a fething terrible idea.

No argument there, this is obviously an attempt to undermine the publication of result, which should only be censored in the most extreme of cases.

**SilverMK2**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
The Vienna scientifical and philosophical communities of the late 19th and early 20th (which were largely overlapping) had to answer to the Ministry of Education.

This is a very different time to then. Back in those days you could be an expert in several fields and invent 5 things before breakfast. Now you are lucky if you are an expert in one very narrow field where you work steadily for 10 years before making a breakthrough.

Not to mention the scale of research being done now, with hundreds of thousands of individual research groups in most western countries, not to mention all the individual projects each of those groups may be working on ant any one time.

**ExNoctemNacimur**

Considering that corporations pretty much fund the Democratic and Republican party, this is going to be bad.

I don't even know. This is so unbelievably stupid. What are they going to censor next? Our thoughts? The internet?

**little bobby oppenheimer**

Goodnight America, it's been real. Would the last sane person to leave please turn out the lights before people start worshipping the bulbs and praying to the switches.

**daedalus**

Nah, it's cool. Once the last sane person leaves, it's only a short order of time before the lights go out on their own.

**Fafnir**

purplefood wrote:
Politicised science is even worse...
It's like some people are intentionally trying to drag us back into the Stone age so they can con more people into believing what they believe...

It really is. Up here in Canada, the Harper government has passed legislation making it so that scientists cannot speak publicly about their research without government approval.

Considering that it was essentially a power grab to remove legitimate criticism concerning the Harper government's own agenda, it really sucks. I really hope the US doesn't end up as ass-backwards as we are these days.

**MeanGreenStompa**

One day all science in America will be explained to the population by Bill O'Reilly and the Ancient Aliens guy, as 'You can't explain that... but it was Aliens'.

**azazel the cat**

Fafnir wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Politicised science is even worse...
It's like some people are intentionally trying to drag us back into the Stone age so they can con more people into believing what they believe...

It really is. Up here in Canada, the Harper government has passed legislation making it so that scientists cannot speak publicly about their research without government approval.

Considering that it was essentially a power grab to remove legitimate criticism concerning the Harper government's own agenda, it really sucks. I really hope the US doesn't end up as ass-backwards as we are these days.

Wait what? That sounds familiar, but far too broad to not have caused more of a ruckus up here. Got some specifications on that?

**Fafnir**

http://sciencewriters.ca/initiatives/muzzling_canadian_federal_scientists/
http://www.canada.com/Scientist+calls+confidentiality+rules+Arctic+project+chilling/7960894/story.html

A quick Google search on "Canadian scientists silenced" or "Canadian scientists muzzled" should bring up a myriad of similar articles.

Also, while not an issue of the federal government, it is interesting to note that in Alberta, university funding is being drastically cut, with universities being encouraged to seek a more commercialized approach to education.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/Alberta+budget+Universities+colleges+face+funding+budget/8065091/story.html

**Alfndrate**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
One day all science in America will be explained to the population by Bill O'Reilly and the Ancient Aliens guy, as 'You can't explain that... but it was Aliens'.

Oh thank God! I can't wait until that day. Science is so tricky with those theories and laws, and methods.

**rubiksnoob**

**AegisGrimm**

Sure sounds like some politician's wet dream is to treat science like Russia did during the days of WWII.........

**motyak**

Kilkrazy wrote:
There is a study that says it will.

No there isn't, it didn't get approved by the committee

**Ratbarf**

azazel the cat wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Politicised science is even worse...
It's like some people are intentionally trying to drag us back into the Stone age so they can con more people into believing what they believe...

It really is. Up here in Canada, the Harper government has passed legislation making it so that scientists cannot speak publicly about their research without government approval.

Considering that it was essentially a power grab to remove legitimate criticism concerning the Harper government's own agenda, it really sucks. I really hope the US doesn't end up as ass-backwards as we are these days.

Wait what? That sounds familiar, but far too broad to not have caused more of a ruckus up here. Got some specifications on that?

That was only Government employed scientists, and I'm not defending it, simply correcting a hyperbole.

**Kovnik Obama**

Ratbarf wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Politicised science is even worse...
It's like some people are intentionally trying to drag us back into the Stone age so they can con more people into believing what they believe...

It really is. Up here in Canada, the Harper government has passed legislation making it so that scientists cannot speak publicly about their research without government approval.

Considering that it was essentially a power grab to remove legitimate criticism concerning the Harper government's own agenda, it really sucks. I really hope the US doesn't end up as ass-backwards as we are these days.

Wait what? That sounds familiar, but far too broad to not have caused more of a ruckus up here. Got some specifications on that?

That was only Government employed scientists, and I'm not defending it, simply correcting a hyperbole.

Here's a different take on it ;

random guy on the internet wrote:There is a very good reason the government is checking the work of government scientists. Unfortunately, some people either do not like the truth, or do not understand it. Perhaps a bit of both.

Back in '07, a few government scientists got sued for publishing defamation in a government research report. It was widely disseminated, in print and on the web. To avoid being held responsible, they claimed in their defense that that their publication fell under "fair comment". The essence of that claim is that (in Canadian law), government policy research publications are NOT FACTUAL.

Unfortunately, the BC Supreme Court agreed, and let the scientists (and the government agency that published it) off the hook for Defamation, despite the courts acknowledgement that the "research" publication was Defamatory lies.

That left the federal government in the position of having to babysit its scientists, to verify their work and make sure that no more defamatory lies were published by the Government of Canada. It affects government credibility, you see.

regrettably, the truth is not very popular in Canada on the CBC site, not with the readers and not with the reporters. Look at the "thumbs down" on my comments to see that.

The resolution to this problem will require that government scientists take responsibility for their publications, and deal with the few bad apples in their ranks who try to get away with Defamation by claiming it is research. If scientists can govern themselves responsibly and honestly, then the Harper government would not have to. I doubt this will happen, and this problem will come to a very bad end where legitimate scientists will be the losers along with the public.... all because of a few bad apples and those scientists who remained silent.

So, beyond the useless blaming and shaming of the scientific community for the actions of a few, anyone got any info on this line of reasonning? Trolling, party line or truth?

**Fafnir**

Considering the other power grabs by the Harper government of late, and the fact that a lot of scientific research that could be damning to the environmental impact of the oilsands, which Harper has been working on selling out as much as possible (considering the financial boon they provide, this part does make sense), I'm inclined to side on the "party line" bit.

Granted, if someone were to provide evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

**azazel the cat**

Ratbarf wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Politicised science is even worse...
It's like some people are intentionally trying to drag us back into the Stone age so they can con more people into believing what they believe...

It really is. Up here in Canada, the Harper government has passed legislation making it so that scientists cannot speak publicly about their research without government approval.

Considering that it was essentially a power grab to remove legitimate criticism concerning the Harper government's own agenda, it really sucks. I really hope the US doesn't end up as ass-backwards as we are these days.

Wait what? That sounds familiar, but far too broad to not have caused more of a ruckus up here. Got some specifications on that?

That was only Government employed scientists, and I'm not defending it, simply correcting a hyperbole.

Yeah, okay, that makes far more sense, and while still a gakky deal, it's nowhere near the WTF levels as originally stated.

**LordofHats**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Sure sounds like some politician's wet dream is to treat science like Russia did during the days of before and after WWII.........

Fixed for historical accuracy

The USSR loosened a lot of their control during the war years due to necessity. After the war ended though they more than happily went back to the way things were done before.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Soladrin wrote:
So, A Christian version of Iran with all the guns in the world? That'll end well.

We'll retake the Holy Land!!! And be more successful than France of England were! W00t!*

*note, that whole thing was sarcasm

**AegisGrimm**

LordofHats wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
Sure sounds like some politician's wet dream is to treat science like Russia did during the days of before and after WWII.........

Fixed for historical accuracy The USSR loosened a lot of their control during the war years due to necessity. After the war ended though they more than happily went back to the way things were done before.

Sorry, that's what I meant. The decades around WWII, when the government decided if the scientist's results were good enough or not, and rewarded/punished accordingly.

**Frazzled**

Sgt.Hakan wrote:
Unrestrained science is Sorcery. Technology is the realm of the Mechanicum and the Omnissiah.

The Emperor Protects.