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If the Champs from each squad was free then I can see this forced Challenge rule as a justification. Otherwise I am paying 10pts and base model cost just to have some guy die. That is 25pts for a CSM champ. With a PF he is now 50pts. It is just not fair when a Guardsman with a power sword can cut him down. The only other way to balance this out is to give the Champ a 5++ invul save for being favored by the Chaos Gods. Or give him an automatic Power Weapon of your Choice. If my champs cost 25 and came with a Power weapon then I would be happily fine with that, but paying 25 pts for nothing is bs!

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Filch wrote:
If the Champs from each squad was free then I can see this forced Challenge rule as a justification. Otherwise I am paying 10pts and base model cost just to have some guy die. That is 25pts for a CSM champ. With a PF he is now 50pts. It is just not fair when a Guardsman with a power sword can cut him down. The only other way to balance this out is to give the Champ a 5++ invul save for being favored by the Chaos Gods. Or give him an automatic Power Weapon of your Choice. If my champs cost 25 and came with a Power weapon then I would be happily fine with that, but paying 25 pts for nothing is bs!

Originally i was thinking of CSM Aspiring champions coming with 10 points of free wargear, but in the end i think just making them cost 0(getting +1 attack for free) would be the best option. Chosen and Chaosterminator champions would need 3 attacks or something else.

Run your champion with a Power weapon. Most peeps in my area are running power ax and power fists. In melee you challenge, you get to hit first, you win. Otherwise you are forced to take on your opponents IC and they spend a round killing your srg and maybe take a wound as a result.

I dont like the challenge mechanic either but it has not proven to be as huge a disadvantage as many seem to see it.

 sennacherib wrote:
Run your champion with a Power weapon. Most peeps in my area are running power ax and power fists. In melee you challenge, you get to hit first, you win. Otherwise you are forced to take on your opponents IC and they spend a round killing your srg and maybe take a wound as a result.

I dont like the challenge mechanic either but it has not proven to be as huge a disadvantage as many seem to see it.

If you have a lot of non-MEQ the mace works for me. I usually get it if I ever give my champion anything but a combi-melta/plasma. The +2 to strength really helps in the wounding department, and if my guy is gonna die I like him to chip off an IC's wound count. 3 Attacks with 4 on the charge will likely do some damage.

Still, a naked champion/shooty champion is not a terrible way to get around this.

Since I have to challenge, I splurge and make the most of it. P-fist and Lightning claw. (since I run Slannesh, the doom siren is my shooty weapon). I5 with rerolls to wound and base 3 attacks is enough to remove most any other non-HQ Sargent type character before they even get a chance. If the other guy happens to have 2+ save, then its probably a mutual KO at I1 (unless they have a storm shield). But those are the breaks, and I feel that so long as I have to fight, I might as well do my best to win the fight. The P-fist also helps out against walkers, tankbusting etc, so its rarely wasted points.

If you're using a cult marine, it's normally worth it to give them a power weapon because you're tough enough, fast enough or have enough attacks to win against other squad leaders.

 minigun762 wrote:
If you're using a cult marine, it's normally worth it to give them a power weapon because you're tough enough, fast enough or have enough attacks to win against other squad leaders.

But how will they do against even low teir ICs? BA sang priest, a techmarine, libby or sorcerer? An aspriring champion costs ~23-30 points. +15 for the power weapon. Taking a fist and a power weapon makes them cost 70 points

Sure he will kill an IG sergeant. TDA WG, not so much. Newcron overlords will whoop them easily as well. A nob will also probably wreck them. GK justicars are faster still at init 6.

How many ordinary C:SM take nasty stuff on their sergeants?

 Exergy wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If you're using a cult marine, it's normally worth it to give them a power weapon because you're tough enough, fast enough or have enough attacks to win against other squad leaders.

But how will they do against even low teir ICs? BA sang priest, a techmarine, libby or sorcerer? An aspriring champion costs ~23-30 points. +15 for the power weapon. Taking a fist and a power weapon makes them cost 70 points

Sure he will kill an IG sergeant. TDA WG, not so much. Newcron overlords will whoop them easily as well. A nob will also probably wreck them. GK justicars are faster still at init 6.

How many ordinary C:SM take nasty stuff on their sergeants?

Beyond the super expensive Rubric Sorcerer, you shouldn't be paying more than 40 points for your champion with a weapon.

Noise champ with single claw, Plague champ with power axe, Khorne champ with claw or maul most likely.

You should dominate Sergeant equivalents while still having a chance against those lowbie ICs. But its really just down to points spent, you can't reasonably expect a 40 point model to beat out a 100 point model consistently (thinking cheap Sorcerer/Librarian or Warpsmith here) but if the dice gods like you, you'll have a decent chance against them.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If you're using a cult marine, it's normally worth it to give them a power weapon because you're tough enough, fast enough or have enough attacks to win against other squad leaders.

But how will they do against even low teir ICs? BA sang priest, a techmarine, libby or sorcerer? An aspriring champion costs ~23-30 points. +15 for the power weapon. Taking a fist and a power weapon makes them cost 70 points
Sure he will kill an IG sergeant. TDA WG, not so much. Newcron overlords will whoop them easily as well. A nob will also probably wreck them. GK justicars are faster still at init 6.
How many ordinary C:SM take nasty stuff on their sergeants?

Beyond the super expensive Rubric Sorcerer, you shouldn't be paying more than 40 points for your champion with a weapon.
Noise champ with single claw, Plague champ with power axe, Khorne champ with claw or maul most likely.
You should dominate Sergeant equivalents while still having a chance against those lowbie ICs. But its really just down to points spent, you can't reasonably expect a 40 point model to beat out a 100 point model consistently (thinking cheap Sorcerer/Librarian or Warpsmith here) but if the dice gods like you, you'll have a decent chance against them.

Sorcs cost 60 points, libbys 65pts and 25pts of that is their lvl1 (essentially a shooting weapon most of the time) That leaves you with a 35-40 point model that has more wounds and attacks and a power weapon that can take better wargear. I dont think most champs, even with a power weapon have much of a chance, they need to do 2 wounds where as the IC only needs do one.

I really want to invest in champions because they look and feel so cool, but I just cannot justify it.