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2nd, we got a Gotz pic awhile back

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Thanks

I don't know. Is it?

Most likely.

Today, we was able to play a match. I lost again against the seven wanderers and I'm a little bit upset about it this time because I don't know what else I could do.

My army was a Warlord(Sabotage 1, Blade Spin 3, Tailblade, smoke bombs, heroism banner), Gotz von Frederwerk(smoke bombs, charge banner, MS horn), 6 sky marines, a cannon and 5 Shrew hussars(with armor).

Against the seven wandererers and the Daymio who removes their food costs, it's attendants, 3 Fox Shinobies 8 Otter Ashigarus and 3 tanuki samurai.

In the first turn my cannon was destroyed by the asigarus from max range. I took out all the asigarus after that, but in the next turn the Daymio's Bushido locked my Sky marines, so I can only hide them behnd a low wall. (he used it from way out of range even for the 15 inch charge, and then hide behind cover. bushido my...). I took out the shinobi, but in return the seven wanderers took out my shrew hussar squad, even as they where behind cover. Then Amamamimoto rushed behind the wall the sky marines where hiding and charged them from the other side in the same activation, and even Frederwerk wasn't able to deal with him. He just soaked a zweihander with his face. I was not able to use the flame cannon because my models where too close.

My warlord charged two wanderers and blade spin them for good, and in the next turn a Tamatama joined this fight. After a hit from his sword, the warlord counter-activated and killed ttwo f three wanderers around himself with blade spin, but the third killed him. After that, Amamimoto slammed Gotz's Valkyr and after that Gotz too in one attack set.

Two turns, that was the whole match.

I have no idea what I did wrong. The Seven Vanderers devastate with their ability that allows them to activate one after another, and their stats and abilities are still insane.

Questions:

If there is a low wall in your deployment zone, can you deloploy your squads hing behind it? What about assault terrains and trenches. can you deploy to the top of a wall or into a trench?

Gotz's ability to activate immediatly when his Valkyr gets destroyed seems to got removed. When this happens, do you have to place Gotz(on foot) in b2b with the unit that destroyed it in close combat?

When you charge, do you have to move the charging model to the side of the charged where it is the closest? I mean, if you charge a model, but you can't place your model to the front of it because something is there, but you can place it behind it and you can move that far, can you place your model behind the charged model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I lost yet more faith in the Siege weapons, as they cannot fire and move in the same turn, which means if the enemy has some ranged units, the cannon is instantly destroyed. All attacks hit against a cannon and it has 3 armor, 5 HP.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Questions:
If there is a low wall in your deployment zone, can you deloploy your squads hing behind it? What about assault terrains and trenches. can you deploy to the top of a wall or into a trench?

You can deploy anywhere in your deployment zone, including in/on fortifications or behind walls.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Gotz's ability to activate immediatly when his Valkyr gets destroyed seems to got removed. When this happens, do you have to place Gotz(on foot) in b2b with the unit that destroyed it in close combat?

You just have to play him where the previous model was, since he goes down to a 30mm base from a 50mm base, you can place him in the space without it being in B2B if you so choose.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

When you charge, do you have to move the charging model to the side of the charged where it is the closest? I mean, if you charge a model, but you can't place your model to the front of it because something is there, but you can place it behind it and you can move that far, can you place your model behind the charged model?

Charging is a 3" movement if you can make it into B2B in a straight line, you don't have to stop at the closest target if you have another viable target.

-So even that you need an "end of a movement phase" to hide behind a low wall, you can deploy models that are already hiding.

-This should be mentionned at the dual-stat models I think.

-In other words, if you can charge a model, can you place your model anywere around the charged model if you reached it, or you can only place your model where the charge line hits the base?

- We'll get this noted in the book, yes you can start the game 'using' fortifications or terrain.

- We'll get this noted too.

- Yes Charging does not have to be the shortest distance, you can purposefully use the charge movement to get into B2B with more than one model, a model further away, or just to avoid LoS with enemy heroes.

Just a few Questions about your game:
How many models were left in your enemy's army at the end of Turn 2?
What size board were you playing on?
Did anyone rush?
What amount of terrain was on the table in between you and your opponent?

 miskatonicalum wrote:
- We'll get this noted in the book, yes you can start the game 'using' fortifications or terrain.

- We'll get this noted too.

- Yes Charging does not have to be the shortest distance, you can purposefully use the charge movement to get into B2B with more than one model, a model further away, or just to avoid LoS with enemy heroes.

Just a few Questions about your game:
How many models were left in your enemy's army at the end of Turn 2?
What size board were you playing on?
Did anyone rush?
What amount of terrain was on the table in between you and your opponent?

The 8 Asigaru and the 3 Fox Shinobi, the Asigaru attendant of the Daymio, Kitsune Sarutobi, and Tamatama died. The rest of the wanderers, 3 tanuki samurais, the daimio and it's attendants where left alive.
We were playing on a 47*31 inch table (120*80 cm)
The Shrew Hussars rush in both turns, the Sky marines in the first turn The warlord rushed to hit Kitsune Sarutobi and Saito Okami but that was after the wanderer's secound activation. Amamimoto rushed trough a wall to charge the Sky marines behind it and killed two.

In the middle line there was two 2 by 6 inches of wall piece(blocking, impassable terrain) at both ends, one of them had a 4 by 4 four tower(impassable blocking) attached to it among the mid line, and hetween those there was 4 pieces of low walls 3 inch long each in the middle.

On my side there was an another tower and a piece of terrain further back, on the enemy side, there was 2 3 inch low wall piece at the end of the deployment zone and two more piece a little further to the middle.

Love your gerbil pilot I hope you do more!

 RiTides wrote:
Love your gerbil pilot I hope you do more!

Thanks!

The current siege rules do leave it really easy to one shot a weapon. We're looking into ways to adjust that. 10 arrows should not destroy a cannon. We'll also make it clear that the operators can take hits for a cannon (possibly overriding sniper.)

I would like to avoid restricting exemplar/wanderer selection as a means to nerf them, so I'll look into an alternative.

 miskatonicalum wrote:
The current siege rules do leave it really easy to one shot a weapon. We're looking into ways to adjust that. 10 arrows should not destroy a cannon. We'll also make it clear that the operators can take hits for a cannon (possibly overriding sniper.)

I would like to avoid restricting exemplar/wanderer selection as a means to nerf them, so I'll look into an alternative.

I'd suggest to limit their activation chain somehow. They are usually not stronger than other heroes/exemplars(I'm not sure about this), but some of them have a damage potetntial of a squad and they doesn't have to worry about enemy reactions while they are activating.

Also, they aren't seem to have a weakness. they have answers to anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about saying a siege weapon cannot been damaged from range except by other siege weapon or fire. Maybe not even fire. Or the operators can do something if a siege weapon catches fire. But it would be simpler to say they are immune to fire too.

I think if five foot solider wants to render a ballista/cannon/trebuched useless, they can do it fast and easy from close range, but you can waste a thousand arrows on a cannon, it still going to fire. Same with bullets I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did some research about the raw combat power of the exemplars in the Journey to the East book. I simply calculated how much damage the units can deal in an activation. I don't think it means too much, but it was fun. This assumes all their attacks hit, both ranged and melee, but they doesn't score lucky or crit. I haven't calculated with AP, but here is the list:

Amamimoto the Ronin(Rb) 15
Kitsune Sarutobi(Rb) 12
Kawauso no Yoshitsune(Rb) 12
Oruç & Hızır(Zb) 12
Gan Zi(Ch) 8
Master Jiao(Ch) 8
Tariq ibn Ratel(Zb) 8
Bram(Ax) 7
Hua Poi Kay(Ch) 6
Lü Pang(Ch) 6
Saito Ookami(Rb) 6
Iriomote Benkei(Rb) 6
Roland(Ax) 4
Sean(Ax) 4
The Agent(Ax) 4
Robyn Milne(Ax) 4
Cangshu Dun(Ch) 4
Lao Yi(Ch) 4
Inoshishi(Rb) 4
Doyle(Ax) 2
Fiedler(Ax) 2
Pan Yu(Ch) 2
Pompadour Timmus(Zb) 2

I played an introduction match yesterday with a friend. It went okay.

Two things came up:

My Hamster Berserker was hiding behind a low wall, but next to one of it's sides, and even if the enemy Asigaru(Rifle) was not on the same side of the low wall as the Hamster, it's angle allowed it to see the Hamster quite clearly. It is unclear how does this intended.

Red: Hamster berserker hiding behind low wall, Blue: Otter Asigaru with Rifle.

Can the Asigaru shoot at the Berserker?

The other one was when my squad attacked models in the other side of the low wall for several turns. Since there was a wall behind the opposing models, we thought that they get +2 ES because of the wall. It's also not clear how is this intended to work. The rulebook says that models b2b with the low wall and closer than 2 inches with each other are considered to be in b2b, but there is a wall there after all.

(I have eight pieces of low wall I'll make some forest bases when I'll have some time.)

The Ashigaru can shoot the Berserker, it is not drawing line of sight through the low wall, so it is not drawing line of sight through Obscuring terrain.

I don't completely understand what you mean in the second question so let me make sure I get it before I answer: Your squad is in Melee with an enemy squad by being in B2B with it through a low wall. The question is if the squads get +2 ES because they are 'drawing line of sight' through the low wall.

RAI, no, Cover is only meant to apply in the Ranged Phase (it is only mentioned in the Ranged Phase). I'll get a final line in the cover entry for the next update.

Well, if two opposing models fighting in b2b trough a low wall, I think that wall should be somehow reflected in the attack/defense numbers, after all, it's there. No?

Also there is no point of low walls if the enemy is low on ranged units. I don't think that is bad, but it's wasted opportunity to mix up melee strategy a little bit.

Low walls don't matter in melee because if you "duck" down to hide against an incoming melee attack, then you're kind of just sitting there waiting to get stabbed...

Enemy can hide at the other side, no?

I would expect that a low wall is a position that you can defend better, even if the enemy only has melee weapons.

So at least fighting should be harder if there is a low wall between the participants.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Enemy can hide at the other side, no?

I would expect that a low wall is a position that you can defend better, even if the enemy only has melee weapons.

So at least fighting should be harder if there is a low wall between the participants.

You're hiding behind the wall yes? What happens when you hide behind the wall? You don't get shot at, but at the same time you don't get to shoot. So what happens when those guys with guns start moving closer, and you're still hiding? They get the jump on you because you're not watching out for them. So they jump over the wall, come around it, surprise you're in combat with no defense because... You were hiding!

If you and your opponent decide that models fighting on both sides of the wall (i.e. not hiding) get a bonus to their ES or Wits (if you're playing 1st ed still) then that's fine, but to give 1 side a blanket bonus and the other side gets nothing is not fair. If you're hiding behind a wall and you get charged, I think you shouldn't get to add your ES to defense rolls since you were caught by surprise.

Remember, that most of the game mechanics in Brushfire are abstract. You dont REALLY need to be in B2B to hit someone with a spear, but to simplify the mechanics, you do.

The same is happening here. You're not really swinging your sword from the other side of a hedgerow or low wall. You're just not moving the enemy models to 'make room' as you vault the wall swinging violently.

This also balances out low walls, they're useful against one thing, but not against everything. Which is intentional. Low Walls are less useful against an all Melee Army, which I would argue mixes up overall game strategy, even if it lessens melee strategy.

Today we had a match of Vandalands vs Ribenguo, and Vandalands won on poison resistand Raiders and a charge redirect.

HRLV2, R:50
Vandalands: 5 Rat Raiders(Ordeenstaat), 5 Sky Marines, 5 Hamster Berserkers, Rat Lord(Blade Spin 2)
Ribenguo: 1 Tanuki Samurai(bow), 4 Otter Asigaru(ranger horns(on all), guns, armor), 2 Fox Shinobi(sickle and chain), Kunoichi(Earth Nimpo 2)

I made some forest pieces and those caused wast differences in gameplay.

I'll ask the questions we had in the playtest thread.

After a long hiatus, we managed to play a Objective: Capture match at RS:100 HRLV:4

Ribenguo: 6 Ashigau (guns), 2 Wolf of Mibu, 5 Samurai, Amamimoto, Tamatama, Kunoichi(Water Nimpo 4), Wandering Monk
Vandalands: Gotz, 2 Valkyr, 5 Shrew Hussar(armor), 6 Rat Raider(Shield), 3 Hamster Berserker, Warlord(Sabotage 1, Heroic Caliber: 3)

The result is a tie as both of us held one objective at the end.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm considering a house rule that says all ES rolls made are result in 6 by default. What do you guys think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other questions:

When a dual-profile model's first profile gets destroyed, the secound profile count's as activated, conuts activated if the first profile was activated, or always counts as not activated?

I suppose you cannot aim a cavarly charge on a model that cannot been attacked, like Tamatama, or a Wandering Monk, but what if such a model ends up under a cavarly charge anyway?

If I take the aquatar Trapper hero whith the Hunter talent so it's traps doesn't gets removed and trap all the Objectives in a game, does that counts as being a douchebag?

Gotz von Frederwerk's Flame Cannon feels like as he should be able to use it in melee, hence the fire immunity he provides for his squad and himself, but it's a ranged weapon and you cannot have a ranged phase if your squad activates while b2b with enemy models.

So what's the situation with that?

The house rule would certainly streamline combat, but it would also force models targeting high ES models to almost always need critical hits.

A dual-profile model remains in whatever state it was before being switched. If it was activated it stays activated, if it wasnt, it doesnt.

As Tamatama/Wandering Monk/etc cannot be the target of an attack, The only way they can be hit is by template, or if an attack rolls over from other models in their squad.

Doing this with a trapper is a great strategy, but as it only ignores body armor, any model with a shield is going to completely ignore the trap tokens. Don't rely on them to stop everything!

As the flame cannon is a template with a very short range, there may be situations where Gotz nicks himself if you're trying to maximize the number of models hit by his cannon. He also shares his immunity with his squad, so he does not have to worry about hitting his own valkyr. It is not a situation that will come up very often. Both he and his squad are already immune to the damage with their AR Shield, so this is just covering all the bases.

So you cannot fire it into the opposing model Gotz is b2b whith?

If I activate Gotz with a squad of Valkyrs in such a situation where Gotz is not in melee whit any opposing models but some Valkyrs in his squad are, can he still has a ranged phase? I mean the MK1s can shoot with their crossbow in melee.

By the way, the MK1s melee shoot is the Pistolier ability, or it's a ranged phase that they can use in melee? is it RS or MS based?

Firing Out Of Close Combat
Models in B2B at the start of the Ranged Phase may not make Ranged Attacks.

Quoted from the book; Only the models in b2b cannot make ranged attacks. The rest of the squad may shoot as normal (excepting for misses hitting their own squadmates)

This means that you can use Gotz's Valkyr squad to buffer him while he hammers on your opponents with the Flame Cannon, but he cannot use it in B2B.

Gotz's Valkyr is an older model that he has spruced up, he does not have the "independent targeting systems" that the Mk I's have.

Pistolier melee attacks use MS. All Melee Phase attacks use MS unless stated otherwise. If the Valkyr uses Target Lock to shoot another target (one they are not in b2b with) the attack occurs during the Ranged Phase and uses RS.

I didn't found it that rare that a model would need to roll a crit to hit an other model, but what's more dull to me is that more times happens that I roll a seven or so on ES and find out that the opposing MS or RS is so high in comparison that my opponent only rolls to see if he gets any luckys or crits. With basic troops you get 3 ES top, while a melee focused basic troop has 6 MS. MS is also way easier to boost, and ES rolls doesn't "crit".

I know that because the contesting rolls the hitchances come out differently as one side would only be a fixed number, but I think I'll try it and see how it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 miskatonicalum wrote:

Pistolier melee attacks use MS. All Melee Phase attacks use MS unless stated otherwise. If the Valkyr uses Target Lock to shoot another target (one they are not in b2b with) the attack occurs during the Ranged Phase and uses RS.

So they may have a ranged phase despite being in B2B. Okay, thanks.

Just the Valkyr are capable of that, as it is part of their Target Lock special ability. Other models with Pistolier are cannot shoot out of melee.

The wording in that is a little bit foggy: "A Valkyr may use its Crossbow as a 2nd Melee Weapon, and may fire at a separate target then what they are fighting in Melee."

Currently I think it like it working like this:

A Valkyr may target different squads during it's Ranged and Melee phase.

A Valkyr may choose one of the following during each activation:
-It may perform a ranged phase while in melee with an enemy model
-it's Crossbow gains the Pistolieer ability

You copied the rule wrong, it's "A Valkyr may use its Crossbow as a 2nd Melee Weapon, or may fire at a separate target then what they are fighting in Melee." with the rule copied right, it's far less foggy.

So you can either use it as a second melee weapon against a target you are in melee with, or you may fire it at a target you are not in melee with.

I copied that from the card. Then it's a typo there.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I copied that from the card. Then it's a typo there.

That's why it pays to check the rulebook