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cowmonaut wrote:


Also, 25 Cultists is only 110 points. That's dirt cheap and with Shrouded + Stealth from Invisibility is damn hard to kill from shooting without something that ignores cover. I never said the Cultists were scary in close combat, but they do take an awful lot of time to deal with.

Yes anything with shrouded + stealth from invisibility and in cover is hard to kill without cover ignoring weapons. Would you rather your unit of Havocs, CSM, or any unit that can say actually do damage have it or 25 cultists that are just going to sit there and wait for something to mop them off the board in combat. Sure they wont break with a fearless character, but they an be chopped up rather easily.

I disagree completely with regards to your thoughts on Typhus, Tycho.

Simply put, Typhus with a squad of Zombies OWN midfield, and any good player worth his salt understands the value of board control. This doesn't even touch on his multiple army-wide buffs which are really quite good.

At Adepticon, my main reason for allying CSM into my Necron list was Typhus/Zombies.. The Heldrake was just gravy (albeit reaaaallly darn good gravy). I happened to do pretty well there with him.

Agreed about board control however you allied a Heldrake with freaking Necrons so your point is invalid. lol/jk

Seriously though, I'm glad you did well and props for being one of the few players who promotes that combo AND has apparently actually played with it. That being said there's just so much that trumps Typhus + zombies that I just can't consider it that effective. Dakka banner LRC list (which is getting crazy popular in my meta), my triple Forgefiend/dual heldrake list chews them up to the point that you may as well not even deploy them. Tau gunline anyone? And don't even get me started on what an IG pie plate army does to that list. Also, as someone else mentioned, the ubiquitous Predator Anhilator doesn't have much to fear from that either. Then there's Orks. One good WAAAAGH! and two Dakka jets will see that list off quite nicely. With the possible exception of my triple FF/Heldrake list (which is admittedly kind of a jerk list but I was given the stuff by my GF so I feel obligated to use it once and a while lol) these are all very common armies that don't even require a great deal of skill to use and will shut down Nurgle's favorite son and his walking meat shields without too much trouble. I say all that based on actuallly having either played those matchees myself, or having observed them. I'm always open to being proven wrong though. Maybe you can point out some specifics that I might be missing (no sarcasm intended - serious question)?

I think you underestimate Typhus' ability to tank wounds. It takes an inordinate amount of firepower to destroy that unit. So much so, that if you really want to do that, and leave the rest of my army untouched, good luck.

So many of my games saw my opponent waste the first two turns trying to kill Typhus and squad, unsuccessfully, while 3 Barges, 20 Immortals, 2 Scythes, 6 Wraiths, and a Dragon made their army disappear in 3-4 turns.

 Kain wrote:
I expected the very first words out of this thread to be "Helldrakes."

3 Helldrakes.

There, I said it lol

 Pellegrino wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I expected the very first words out of this thread to be "Helldrakes."

3 Helldrakes.

There, I said it lol

agree.

3 helldrakes and any unit you like with any anti vehicles thrown around. full las preds work good in chaos codex.

I wouldn't take 3 Heldrakes. I've never seen those lists make it very far. Too limited in what they can do.

I would say the first Heldrake is a must have.

If Chaos is your primary, I would say you also need either Obliterators (MoN) OR AC Havocs.. Depends on the list. But you must have at least one of your HS slots filled with those guys.

..other than that, there is nothing else I'd consider a must have.

Here a local player ranked rather high in the German list (around 20 or so) currently plays 3 Helldrakes and 3 Maulerfiends. He's not making too many friends these days. Frankly his RTT record with this list is not really exiting.

The topic was auto takes, and while Typhus, Huron and Ahriman are all decent, none are auto takes.

Nurgle Oblits, maybe Autocannon Havocs, are Autotake
1-2 Heldrakes are Autotakes
These are written in stone.

I consider spawn of nurgle or nurgle bikes to be autotake, but IMO
Lord w/ MoN or MoS to unlock troops. Usually with spawn or bikes.

Outside of that, 3 man termicide squads, Maulerfiends, Vindi's are all quite good.

Predators, Helbrutes, Warpsmith, and DP are all good sometimes, but at this point we are waaaay out of the Autotake conversation.

My Opinion anyway

IMO the obliterators are the only auto-include. Heldrake can wreck MEQ all day but against hordes they're effectiveness is less. Oblits can gleefully break almost anything open errryday.

10 points to get +1BS on your BS5 lord, EW on your 1 wound champion, hammer of wrath on your DP, hatred on your Dark Apostle, FNP on your Plague Champ, fleet on your possessed champ, and mechanoid on your termanator champ.

That's just a risk you have to take. The dark gods work in random ways!

MarsNZ wrote:
IMO the obliterators are the only auto-include. Heldrake can wreck MEQ all day but against hordes they're effectiveness is less. Oblits can gleefully break almost anything open errryday.

Except hordes, due to the fact they have a lower amount of shots, not to mention a heldrake will hit on average more of a horde, as well with their flying vector strike. As well as the fact they can easily avoid a horde then obliterators..

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
IMO the obliterators are the only auto-include. Heldrake can wreck MEQ all day but against hordes they're effectiveness is less. Oblits can gleefully break almost anything open errryday.

Except hordes, due to the fact they have a lower amount of shots, not to mention a heldrake will hit on average more of a horde, as well with their flying vector strike. As well as the fact they can easily avoid a horde then obliterators..

Obliterators with assault cannons will easily kill more models than a Heldrake against a well spread out horde. Not to mention Obliterators can have multiple ap4/5 templates.. They're just straight up better at killing most things that aren't MEQ compared to Heldrakes. In a vacuum, at least. :p

Nothing is autotake except 1 helldrake (just 1). Everything else depends on your list, and your meta.

There is a difference between autotake and good to have.

BTW, with forgeworld units, and Tau allies, a lot more lists these days are capable or good anti air. Taking 3 helldrakes is a recipe for autolosing the game.

You don't even need to play the game when you take 3 helldrakes. Just loook at his list, ask if he has enough anti air. If he has little anti air, he autolose (unless he is running deathwing or something).

If he has so much anti air he can blow you out of the sky, then you auto lose.

 hippesthippo wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
IMO the obliterators are the only auto-include. Heldrake can wreck MEQ all day but against hordes they're effectiveness is less. Oblits can gleefully break almost anything open errryday.

Except hordes, due to the fact they have a lower amount of shots, not to mention a heldrake will hit on average more of a horde, as well with their flying vector strike. As well as the fact they can easily avoid a horde then obliterators..

Obliterators with assault cannons will easily kill more models than a Heldrake against a well spread out horde. Not to mention Obliterators can have multiple ap4/5 templates.. They're just straight up better at killing most things that aren't MEQ compared to Heldrakes. In a vacuum, at least. :p

The problem is, is if your in range to use your templates against a horde, that group isn't going to last much longer.

The only other issue is, if your dealing with an ork horde, you'll be needing that assault cannon each turn to do more damage, but are prevented due to its rules.

Well, don't forget the Heldrake has movement restrictions. Even though the flame-butt turret can mitigate this to a degree, so too can a horde spread out to reduce your "landing zones."

Also, Obliterators start shooting turn 1.

Autocannon Havocs, btw, can shoot the same gun every turn, with 48" range, and have the same amount of shots as 2 Oblits.

Bottom line, Heldrake isn't at its most effective killing 5 Orks/turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those wondering, the basis for almost any chaos list I write starts out like this:

2 Heldrake, flamer
2x 5 Havocs, 4 AC
3 Oblits, MoN, VotLW

Essentially, those are my "auto-takes."

Predictably, Heldrakes are ofc great units.

Though personally, I'm a big fan of the flying Demon Prince with Black Mace.
If you really want something nasty, take a Flying Demon Prince with Black Mace, 2 Heldrakes, ally with Demons to get another flying DP with 2 greater rewards and a Bloodthirster, and fill the skies with horror!

 Exergy wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:

Umm and a DP isnt a great choice either...

3 witchfires a turn(but witchfires suck compared to blessings, especilly the ones Ahriman uses)

A flying DP, Ahriman and 25 cultists. easily 600 points or a third of most armies and its overall DP is rather low. It's surviability is low. It's total usefulness is low. For 600 points it isnt even very scary in close combat.

Are you not a fan of the DP at all, w/ or w/o wings? Do you like him better in 1000, 1850 point games? I am thinking of using a flying DP and Typhus in my 1850 list. Is that a bad idea? If I do take him, what should the setup look like? Black mace, ... and what?

Opps. Well, regardless, what are the thoughts around the DP? I just picked one up a week ago to put into my 1st 40k army (CSM). I figure worst case scenario I will have one in case it get on a ?Chaos boon role? What is the general thought about them as an HQ?

CSM DP is relatively fragile but quite killy with a daemon weapon. Wings and armor are standard, unless you're trying for a Slaaneshi running Prince then just armor.

DoN is nice for flying around but not being able to sweep is a big negative.