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Its not a bad idea if you can take 2 different specialist weapons. PF and LC is a good combo. You can either be 2x strength and AP2 or AP3 Shred as you need, all with +1A.

Of course its usually quite expensive.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Byte wrote:

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
That was very well layed out thank you, but if you gain an additional attack for having two specialist weapons and a power fist is a specialist weapon then why are you stating you won't gain the additional attack when wielding the fist+another weapon?
Please excuse me if that was a dumb or out dated question as stated in the beginning of thread I'm still fairly new to the game.

In order to get an additional attack with a specialist weapon the model has to have two of the same weapon.

Not correct. You only require another weapon with the Specialist rule.

having a LC and a PF will give you +1A with either weapon.


You're thinking of last edition where you did need an identical weapon to get the benefit.

Great point, thanks for the clarification.

Yea that's what I was thinking in terms of having the option for two, but than you have to drop another 25 points for the belt to have any type of decent invulnerable save.. So your correct with the pricey comment

So does if I drink a beer from a bottle(power fist grip) and another from a frost mug I get an extra drink? Every one knows beer is better in a frosted mug, so the same should be for weapons....... regardless double fist it!!!!

I used to make the same mistake, kinda of awesome now and lets you take weapons to make you more versitle or at least bette to adapt to different scenarios.

The less base attacks you have, the more beneficial is a bonus attack. So I would prefer a Wolf Guard with Frost Axe/pistol over one with a power fist. But as WG tend to have a combi-weapon instead of a pistol....
For Lords, the axe doesn't make sense at all except for the cool look.
The Frost Axe beats the fist in the style department big time, but comparing rules it is pretty much obsolete. I just hope they fix it somehow in the next codex.

^ doesn't a power fist and pistol grant you the same bonus attack as a axe/ pistol

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
^ doesn't a power fist and pistol grant you the same bonus attack as a axe/ pistol

Read the Specialist Weapon special rule.

Frost Axes are worthless. The only reason anyone takes them is because they're stuck with them due to WYSIWYG.

For the same points you can take a Power Fist. x2 Strength vs +2 Strength, same AP, same Unwieldy, and no 1 attack does not "make up" the difference usually. It gets noticeably more painful on characters mounted on a Thunderwolf, as you are talking S7 vs S10 instead of S6 vs S8. You're likely better off taking a Power Axe over a Frost Axe and using the 10 points elsewhere. Space Wolf HQs get expensive, and Wolf Guard have better options.

I rock one only because my Thunderwolf HQ (normally a WGBL, sometimes bumped up to "Lord" status when I have the points) was built in 5th Edition using the sweet Frost Axe from the Terminator box set and is posed on a leaping Thunderwolf (with the head from the Finecast model to boot). He looks pretty sweet and I just haven't been able to make myself take him apart considering I rarely take a TWM HQ.

But from a competitive standpoint, a Frost Axe is garbage. The stuff S6 is good against doesn't need AP 2 and you don't want to be Unwieldy since they are usually Initiative 3 or lower. The stuff that S8 is good against generally is Initiative 4, but Instant Death is worth it if its on a Character. Maybe taking a Frost Axe on a Power Armored Wolf Guard, who is part of a Wolf Guard Pack and not split off to lead another Pack, is not a massive waste of points. 3-4 attacks wounding on 2's at AP 2 can really upset TEQ/MEQ. But it'd be terrible against multiple wound models that are T4 or greater compared to the same-cost Power Fist.

Its a little sad. I like Frost Blades though, on HQs. Being able to strike at Initiative 5 can be important. Still only worth it if you have a means to take AP 2 as well usually though.

Thanks for the clarification, and grey Templar I did but I thought you also gain a bonus attack for just having to close combat weapons..? And a pistol is a CCW so frost axe plus that gives you an additional attack does it not..? But I agree with the fact that they are useless

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, and grey Templar I did but I thought you also gain a bonus attack for just having to close combat weapons..? And a pistol is a CCW so frost axe plus that gives you an additional attack does it not..? But I agree with the fact that they are useless

No. As the PF is a specialist weapon it can't gain the bonus attack unless you have another specialist weapon. Pistols are not specialist weapons.

cowmonaut wrote:
Frost Axes are worthless. The only reason anyone takes them is because they're stuck with them due to WYSIWYG.

For the same points you can take a Power Fist. x2 Strength vs +2 Strength, same AP, same Unwieldy, and no 1 attack does not "make up" the difference usually. It gets noticeably more painful on characters mounted on a Thunderwolf, as you are talking S7 vs S10 instead of S6 vs S8. You're likely better off taking a Power Axe over a Frost Axe and using the 10 points elsewhere. Space Wolf HQs get expensive, and Wolf Guard have better options.

I rock one only because my Thunderwolf HQ (normally a WGBL, sometimes bumped up to "Lord" status when I have the points) was built in 5th Edition using the sweet Frost Axe from the Terminator box set and is posed on a leaping Thunderwolf (with the head from the Finecast model to boot). He looks pretty sweet and I just haven't been able to make myself take him apart considering I rarely take a TWM HQ.

But from a competitive standpoint, a Frost Axe is garbage. The stuff S6 is good against doesn't need AP 2 and you don't want to be Unwieldy since they are usually Initiative 3 or lower. The stuff that S8 is good against generally is Initiative 4, but Instant Death is worth it if its on a Character. Maybe taking a Frost Axe on a Power Armored Wolf Guard, who is part of a Wolf Guard Pack and not split off to lead another Pack, is not a massive waste of points. 3-4 attacks wounding on 2's at AP 2 can really upset TEQ/MEQ. But it'd be terrible against multiple wound models that are T4 or greater compared to the same-cost Power Fist.

Its a little sad. I like Frost Blades though, on HQs. Being able to strike at Initiative 5 can be important. Still only worth it if you have a means to take AP 2 as well usually though.

I feel really sad reading things like this.

They are not “Worthless” or “Garbage”, there are just better choices. You can make them work; you just have to work at it. It is just like every Fighter that has come out in 6th. They are all good fighter, just not compared to the Vendetta for its price.
I find they have their uses, not every time, not on every list. What has been said early about how S8 is not necessary to kill everything is true in my opinion. What you have to conceder is what you are doing with him and what you are facing.

Take a Thunderlord with a Frost Axe and a Plasma Pistol vs. Guard. Every Attack is S7 AP2. This gives a good chance of tearing apart most of their Vehicles in one turn. You can ID everything, but Ogren and then you are wounding on a 2+.
This might be an inefficient and not necessarily compensative use of points, but not every Model on a list has to 100% inefficient and compensative.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Be glad being a Frost Axe has a benefit over a normal power axe.

But there's still no point in taking it instead of a power fist now.

Not correct. Its the same benefit as a PF vs most opponents for far cheaper, while also getting a second attack.

Str6 AP2 is going to wound the majority of things on 2+ with no armor, exactly like a PF.

The only way a PF is superior is against T6+ and vehicles. T6+ is very rare and for vehicles a Melta Bomb is going to be a cheaper and more effective way to deal with it.

The only thing you miss out on is more potential ID, and frankly that's not worth paying almost twice as much for.

I'm sorry, you seem to be implying that T6 MCs are rare in 6e, which has often been called "The monster mash edition".

4 codices have T6 MCs. And aside from Tyranids they can't run them in any numbers beyond 1 or 2.

 Grey Templar wrote:
4 codices have T6 MCs. And aside from Tyranids they can't run them in any numbers beyond 1 or 2.

...and JoTWW takes care of those... since we are talking SWs.

 Anpu42 wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
Frost Axes are worthless. The only reason anyone takes them is because they're stuck with them due to WYSIWYG.

For the same points you can take a Power Fist. x2 Strength vs +2 Strength, same AP, same Unwieldy, and no 1 attack does not "make up" the difference usually. It gets noticeably more painful on characters mounted on a Thunderwolf, as you are talking S7 vs S10 instead of S6 vs S8. You're likely better off taking a Power Axe over a Frost Axe and using the 10 points elsewhere. Space Wolf HQs get expensive, and Wolf Guard have better options.

I rock one only because my Thunderwolf HQ (normally a WGBL, sometimes bumped up to "Lord" status when I have the points) was built in 5th Edition using the sweet Frost Axe from the Terminator box set and is posed on a leaping Thunderwolf (with the head from the Finecast model to boot). He looks pretty sweet and I just haven't been able to make myself take him apart considering I rarely take a TWM HQ.

But from a competitive standpoint, a Frost Axe is garbage. The stuff S6 is good against doesn't need AP 2 and you don't want to be Unwieldy since they are usually Initiative 3 or lower. The stuff that S8 is good against generally is Initiative 4, but Instant Death is worth it if its on a Character. Maybe taking a Frost Axe on a Power Armored Wolf Guard, who is part of a Wolf Guard Pack and not split off to lead another Pack, is not a massive waste of points. 3-4 attacks wounding on 2's at AP 2 can really upset TEQ/MEQ. But it'd be terrible against multiple wound models that are T4 or greater compared to the same-cost Power Fist.

Its a little sad. I like Frost Blades though, on HQs. Being able to strike at Initiative 5 can be important. Still only worth it if you have a means to take AP 2 as well usually though.

I feel really sad reading things like this.

They are not “Worthless” or “Garbage”, there are just better choices. You can make them work; you just have to work at it. It is just like every Fighter that has come out in 6th. They are all good fighter, just not compared to the Vendetta for its price.
I find they have their uses, not every time, not on every list. What has been said early about how S8 is not necessary to kill everything is true in my opinion. What you have to conceder is what you are doing with him and what you are facing.

Take a Thunderlord with a Frost Axe and a Plasma Pistol vs. Guard. Every Attack is S7 AP2. This gives a good chance of tearing apart most of their Vehicles in one turn. You can ID everything, but Ogren and then you are wounding on a 2+.
This might be an inefficient and not necessarily compensative use of points, but not every Model on a list has to 100% inefficient and compensative.

Fair enough... they're not "garbage", they're just redundant and nearly obsoleted by 6th edition.

 Anpu42 wrote:
They are not “Worthless” or “Garbage”, there are just better choices. You can make them work; you just have to work at it. It is just like every Fighter that has come out in 6th. They are all good fighter, just not compared to the Vendetta for its price.
I find they have their uses, not every time, not on every list. What has been said early about how S8 is not necessary to kill everything is true in my opinion. What you have to conceder is what you are doing with him and what you are facing.

Apples and oranges. Comparing Flyers (or other units) is largely an act of futility. If a unit is not in your Codex, comparing it to a similar unit in yours is pointless. Its not an option you can actually take so not taking the option available to you because some unit you don't have access to is better is just a badly made decision.

The only caveat there is that Allied Detachments mean a lot more armies have access to Flyers (or other units) from other Codexes. You just have to remember the hidden costs (FOC requirements for one) when taking that into account. An Allied Vendetta is more expensive of a choice than if your Primary Detachment is Imperial Guard. People also tend to forget that when comparing options.

But what we are talking about here is a wargear option for a unit, with other options that have the same job, function, and penalties. As I said, you are comparing apples and oranges with that argument.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Take a Thunderlord with a Frost Axe and a Plasma Pistol vs. Guard. Every Attack is S7 AP2. This gives a good chance of tearing apart most of their Vehicles in one turn. You can ID everything, but Ogren and then you are wounding on a 2+.
This might be an inefficient and not necessarily compensative use of points, but not every Model on a list has to 100% inefficient and compensative.

It's a game that pits two generals and two armies against one another. By its very definition its "competitive". Building your army list is part of the game, so making bad decisions for no real reason is a self inflicted handicap. If playing the game is secondary to building/painting the models, more power to you. Its a big hobby and both sides are awesome. But speaking to the competitive side, the actual game part of things, your comment couldn't be farther from the truth.

Also, your example is something I'd never even try to argue. A Plasma Pistol is ending 0.56 Guardsmen vs a Bolt Pistol's 0.44 Guardsmen. A Plasma Pistol is garbage as a choice against Guardsmen for its point cost; that increase in efficiency isn't justified by the points spent to get it. Likewise with the Frost Axe. A Power Axe will kill just as many Guardsmen just as well for less points. A Frost Blade would kill them before they can try to kill you just as efficiently, which is why its better than the Frost Axe.

But arguing about Vehicles is a non-starter for me. If you want to kill a vehicle in melee, spend the 5 points and take the Meltabombs. If the vehicle didn't move its an automatic hit. If they did, they are WS 1 so its a 3+ to hit. The Melta Bomb has more stopping power than the sword. If it hits, its guaranteed to kill the sucker. Works against Walkers too.

Against MCs, maybe you'd have something but then we come back to the fact that the stronger Power Fist costs the same and has no drawbacks in comparison.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Fair enough... they're not "garbage", they're just redundant and nearly obsoleted by 6th edition.

Or in other words, "garbage". If they are never the better choice Anpu42, then they are garbage. I haven't found a single instance where I'd actually take a Frost Axe by choice anymore. And I've looked. It just doesn't exist unfortunately.

cowmonaut wrote:
Said Stuff

So by this logic I should never field what I want, only the Best most efficient models/units no mater what I want to play.

So the Power Fist is Better for its Points Cost than the Frost Axe in a vacuum, it cost you at least an extra 20 points to get 6 attacks with a Power Fist, the Frost axe can do it for Free! For that 20 points I can get a suit of Runic Armor and force my opponent to take an Unwieldy Weapon to ignore my armor.
It is still a Viable Weapon within the Space Wolf arsenal when used properly.

 Anpu42 wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
Said Stuff

So by this logic I should never field what I want, only the Best most efficient models/units no mater what I want to play.

So the Power Fist is Better for its Points Cost than the Frost Axe in a vacuum, it cost you at least an extra 20 points to get 6 attacks with a Power Fist, the Frost axe can do it for Free! For that 20 points I can get a suit of Runic Armor and force my opponent to take an Unwieldy Weapon to ignore my armor.
It is still a Viable Weapon within the Space Wolf arsenal when used properly.

Sorry, I'm not understanding the 2nd sentence there...

Sure, the Frost Axe can kill things still, but why bother with it when you can take the more powerful Fist for the same price?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
Said Stuff

So by this logic I should never field what I want, only the Best most efficient models/units no mater what I want to play.

So the Power Fist is Better for its Points Cost than the Frost Axe in a vacuum, it cost you at least an extra 20 points to get 6 attacks with a Power Fist, the Frost axe can do it for Free! For that 20 points I can get a suit of Runic Armor and force my opponent to take an Unwieldy Weapon to ignore my armor.
It is still a Viable Weapon within the Space Wolf arsenal when used properly.

Sorry, I'm not understanding the 2nd sentence there...

Sure, the Frost Axe can kill things still, but why bother with it when you can take the more powerful Fist for the same price?

Because I don’t always feel the “Most Powerful” Weapon is always necessary. Now I admit I am more a “Casual Gamer”, but that does not mean I am not “Competitive.” I also try real hard to make my Space Wolves all Individuals. You can only have so many Power Fist and Thunder Hammers out there be for you start to run into the Department of Redundancy Department.

Let me try it this way:
>The Frost Axe looks cool, and is fluffy.
>I can take Frost Axe and Runic Armor and get my 6 Attack on my Thunderlord why not take rather than a Power Fist and a Wolf Claw [That I already have on Foot, a Thunderwolf, Bike and a Jump Pack]
>If the Frost Axe can get the job done, why not just take it.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Because I don’t always feel the “Most Powerful” Weapon is always necessary. Now I admit I am more a “Casual Gamer”, but that does not mean I am not “Competitive.”

There's a reason I leave this in my signature on gaming forums. You can't claim to be "competitive" while simultaneously saying you'll make a bad decision because you "don't feel like" making the good one. I'm not talking about WAAC, or even being That Guy either. If you want to be competitive, you have to play to win. It's basically the definition of the word. That means you don't hold yourself back. You stick to the rules, but you don't go around making up rules that would put you at a disadvantage against someone else sticking to the real rules.

I'd like to stress that I'm not knocking casual players, or the hobbyists who simply enjoy the fluff and building models. Its a big hobby and, as I said before, all of its awesome. But seriously, you just can't claim to be one thing while simultaneously stating you are in fact its polar opposite.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I also try real hard to make my Space Wolves all Individuals. You can only have so many Power Fist and Thunder Hammers out there be for you start to run into the Department of Redundancy Department.

Wolf Claws, Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, Power Swords, Power Maces, Power Axes, Power Lances, Chainswords, Frost Blades, Frost Axes, Chainfists, claws and fangs... There are plenty of weapons to chose from. The Frost Axe is the worst of its class. Frost Axes and Power Axes even look the same typically when people model them, so trying to argue that you are doing it for looks isn't a valid argument.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Let me try it this way:
>The Frost Axe looks cool, and is fluffy.
>I can take Frost Axe and Runic Armor and get my 6 Attack on my Thunderlord why not take rather than a Power Fist and a Wolf Claw [That I already have on Foot, a Thunderwolf, Bike and a Jump Pack]
>If the Frost Axe can get the job done, why not just take it.

Why not take it? Because its not as good as another item of identical cost (both in points and in drawbacks). If you want an Axe, why not a Power Axe and save yourself some points? Also, if you are taking a Storm Shield, as most are wont to do since its only 5 points more than a Belt of Russ and a 3++ is a lot better than a 4++ statistically, you aren't getting an extra attack anyways.

But really, it comes down to math:
Those numbers are for your basic Wolf Lord, on foot, wielding either a Frost Axe, Power Axe, or Power Fist. Here's what it means:
- The Power Fist can deal with harder targets better than the Frost Axe because it can cause Instant Death to everything T4 or less while the Frost Axe can only cause Instant Death to targets with T3 or less.
- The Power Fist wounds T6 models on a 2+ instead of the Frost Axe's 4+.
- Against T4 and less, the Frost Axe causes 20% more wounds than the Power Fist if and only if you get 6 attacks instead of 5. If you take a Storm Shield, you'll be stuck at 5 attacks on the charge.

The Power Fist is more versatile and for most builds I run across, both online and on the table, the Wolf Lord has a Storm Shield for that 3++ Save meaning the Frost Axe causes the same number of wounds, but they are less lethal. This "lethality" gap widens noticeably when you throw the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount.

 Anpu42 wrote:
So the Power Fist is Better for its Points Cost than the Frost Axe in a vacuum, it cost you at least an extra 20 points to get 6 attacks with a Power Fist, the Frost axe can do it for Free! For that 20 points I can get a suit of Runic Armor and force my opponent to take an Unwieldy Weapon to ignore my armor.

First, you are making yourself roughly 46% more vulnerable in order to increase your unsaved wound output 20% by not taking the Storm Shield.
Second, the extra points for a second Power Fist (a bad investment and bad decision to be making, but we'll ignore that for now) would never come from your Runic Armor (because that's a bad decision). It would come from somewhere else in the list.

 Anpu42 wrote:
So by this logic I should never field what I want, only the Best most efficient models/units no mater what I want to play.

Of course not. By all means, play however you want. If you don't want "the best most efficient models/units" then don't use them. Just realize that you can't claim to be "competitive" if you are purposely handicapping yourself by not taking those options. Realize that your unit might die to an enemy HQ or MC because you took the Frost Axe over the Power Fist, or because you took the Belt of Russ over the Storm Shield.

I'm all for doing the unorthodox or taking units most people ignore and using them effectively. But sometimes there is just a plain bad option available that really makes no logical sense to take. This one exists purely because its a 5E Codex in a 6E game.

 Anpu42 wrote:
It is still a Viable Weapon within the Space Wolf arsenal when used properly.

This sentence means nothing. Its a high Strength low AP Melee weapon. It gets used the same way as a Power Fist, except it isn't as good against the harder targets.

cowmonaut wrote:
Said Stuff

Handicapping my self would be taking gear the is “Useless”, the Frost Axe is not “Worthless” it is just not “Optimal”.
I can use it will kill 90% of the Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures out there. It kills Terminators just as Dead as a Power Fist.

So the only thing can say is: Have you used it? Have you seen what it can actually do? Or did you all just looked at the numbers and declare it “Worthless” with only using Mathhammer?

I have used it on the Battlefield, I have won games with one or two out there. I have not lost Challenges because I had one instead of a Power Fist.
It is not my “Go To Weapon”, but I am not putting it back in the "Weapons Rack" either. I do use Power Fist everywhere on my List, mostly with my all of my Grey Hunters now so I do know how good they are. If I could give one to my Grey Hunters I would give ONE Grey Hunter Pack a Frost Axe.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Handicapping my self would be taking gear the is “Useless”, the Frost Axe is not “Worthless” it is just not “Optimal”.

In games, a handicap is a typically self-inflicted penalty in order to make the game "more fair". Taking a "useless" choice is a stupid decision, we both agree on that. Taking a sub-optimal (the politically correct way of saying "garbage" IMO) choice would be handicapping yourself, or a bad decision.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I can use it will kill 90% of the Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures out there.

Provided that you're okay with being shot at because you aren't locked in close combat with an enemy unit.
Provided your shooting failed to take out any of the armor.
Provided a unit with Krak Grenades failed to kill the almost guaranteed to be AV10.
Provided the vehicle isn't a Dreadnought, where you risk dying to Instant Death before you can even hurt it.
Provided the MC didn't kill you before you got to swing (most MCs are Initiative 2, all of them are AP 2, and most are capable of being S8 or S10).

None of those are things I'd actually want to be throwing a 220-235 point model at typically.

 Anpu42 wrote:
It kills Terminators just as Dead as a Power Fist.

Unless they have multiple wounds such as Paladins, Obliterators, and HQs in TDA.

 Anpu42 wrote:
So the only thing can say is: Have you used it? Have you seen what it can actually do? Or did you all just looked at the numbers and declare it “Worthless” with only using Mathhammer?

Did you miss the bit where my Thunderwolf mounted HQ has a Frost Axe? I've already stated I've taken it despite the fact its a bad choice. I built the model that way because it looks cool and worked fine- in 5E. The whole reason for taking the Frost Weapon of the Power Fist was because I needed the Initiative 5 swings.

Oh yes, I've used it in 6th edition. The change sucks. Completely kills the sole reason I took the Frost Weapon in the first place, but thanks to WYSIWYG I'm stuck with it in games I run him. And in those games I have run into the problem of being slower than Initiative 5 almost every time, and I've had many, many missed opportunities to win a Challenge handily through Instant Death. There have even been a few times where I really wished I had been able to wound that T6 gribbly that charged me on a 2+ instead of a 3+, and it cost me.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have used it on the Battlefield, I have won games with one or two out there. I have not lost Challenges because I had one instead of a Power Fist.

I've won games with Wolf Tail Talismans on the table. It doesn't mean they did anything (they didn't). The game is about multiple units, tactics, and strategy. Having one bad choice isn't usually going to make or break anything. That doesn't change the fact its a bad choice.

 Anpu42 wrote:
It is not my “Go To Weapon”, but I am not putting it back in the "Weapons Rack" either. I do use Power Fist everywhere on my List, mostly with my all of my Grey Hunters now so I do know how good they are. If I could give one to my Grey Hunters I would give ONE Grey Hunter Pack a Frost Axe.

Power Fists are bad on Grey Hunters, you only get 1 attack that will hit 50% of the time. That's just not worth the points, especially now that Power Axes give +1 Strength. And its actually cheaper to take a Wolf Guard model, with its 2 Attacks, give it a Power Fist, and add it to a Grey Hunter pack than to take a Grey Hunter with a Power Fist. (40 points vs 38 points). Worried about the extra special weapon? Get a Combi-Weapon on the Wolf Guard. Now your Grey Hunter pack costs a whole 3 points extra and is Leadership 9 instead of 8 (which is a big difference, ask any CSM player). Better still, if you wanted a combat oriented Grey Hunter pack you'd still have the option to take yet another Power Weapon...

If I could give a Grey Hunter a Frost Axe over a Power Axe, I totally would though, if it were only 20 points. 3 non-character S6 AP2 attacks? There's a potential for a lot of fun there, though Mark of the Wulfen is usually still better (not always, but usually).

But the problem with the Frost Axe is what can take it (Wolf Lords, WGBL, and Wolf Guard) and that its been given the same point cost as a Power Fist for those units.


You seem to be taking this rather personally, and I don't appear to be making any headway in swaying you. I think its totally fine to take the "sub-optimal" (since "bad" or "garbage" seems to offend you, though they shouldn't) so long as you are fully aware that it is the worse choice. The facts are that the Frost Axe is worse than a Power Fist because of the only difference between the two is one is +2 S vs the other's x2 S. That's just reality. There are no grounds for arguing otherwise. Any choice for style is a choice for style over substance.

And I've stated several times, in this post and others in this thread, its totally fine to pick what looks cool over what is effective. I've done it myself on rare occasion. There is nothing inherently "morally good" about choosing one over the other. But if you are looking at which is the better choice, as in which is more effective for the point cost, there is only one real winner and there is no way to logically argue otherwise.

The have you actualy played with them was not directed at you, but everyone.

They can be different to gain the attacks, i like piling points into my lord and toyed with the axe and sword combo, but now i think PF and WC are the way, especially on a thunderwolf (my fave) 7 str 10 ap2 int1 attacks on the charge, or 7str 5 ap3 int 5 with re rolls to hit or to wound? yes please

 Grey Templar wrote:
Really?

I was sure they were cheaper.

Still, the Frost Axe is going to be superior most of the time due to the second attack over the PF.

Wrong again. Because most characters who will take a frost axe (like a Wolf Lord) will also take a storm shield for the 3+ invulnerable save and that removes your pistol - hence your extra attack goes away. You can of course take a Belt of Russ (25 pts) in lieu of a storm shield (30 pts) if you're willing to downgrade to a 4+ invuln. But then the difference is still meh.

Here is the MAAAAAATH !

I present to you six different wolf lord builds. There are actually three types of build but among each type we make two sub-types (Axe and Fist). Next to the build I put the modified close combat stats. I don't add the attack for charging, but I do add one for a thunderwolf mount when appropriate.

Thunderlord Build:

Power Armor Build:

Terminator Build:


Ok ... so now we can compare how the two sub-builds perform against different opponents in CC. In the views below, I give a table of percentages. The percentages shown are the probability that the given weapon (with the given strength and attacks etc) will produce AT LEAST that number of wounds against an opponent with the given toughness. I'm assuming that the wolf lord needs a 3+ to hit in every case and I'm ignoring enemy saves because axe and fist don't differ in those respects.

Thunderlords:


So the thunderlord with Frost Axe and Bolt Pistol is better than the PF against models with T5 or less, but considerably worse against Monstrous creatures. Also the Axe wielder sacrifices his 3+ invulnerable save for a 4+ invuln but costs 5 points less.

One other thing, the S10 power fist can get 4 attacks against AV14 vehicles and have a good chance of wrecking or exploding it while the S7 Power Axe is impotent against AV14 without meltabombs and that would eat up the last 5 points.

Power Armor Lords


So the result is the same but less dramatic. Against mid to low toughness models, the Axe + Pistol combo does moderately better but sacrifices survivability to do so. Against monstrous creatures or high AV vehicles, the fist is better while still keeping a good ability against the mid toughness models.

EDIT : A couple of things...
1) You can play this same game with Wolf Claws and Frost Blades, but in that analysis the wolf claw is actually cheaper.
2) Even though the data I provided shows that the Frost Axe + Pistol combination is a little better against mid to low toughness troops, it also shows that the Axe performs dramatically more poorly against monstrous creatures and high AV. So in my view, the power fist is still superior because it can do anything really well.
3) Also, don't forget that Instant Death negates "Feel No Pain." So against some armies (Blood Angels *cough*) the fist is going to be even better.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
3) Also, don't forget that Instant Death negates "Feel No Pain." So against some armies (Blood Angels *cough*) the fist is going to be even better.

Blam! And that's the biggest thing I overlooked. Good catch Grugknuckle! Not only is ID important for dealing with multi-wound models (Tyranid Warriors, Paladins, Obliterators, etc), but also any units with FNP (Plague Marines, Blood Angels, some Dark Angels, etc). So it's even worse than previously stated to take a Frost Axe over a Power Fist.

And in my wall of text some of the math I too ran gets lost, but its worth emphasizing:

cowmonaut wrote:
vs GEQ
Frost Axe: 6 * (4/6) * (5/6) = 3.33 (Instant Death)
Power Axe: 6 * (4/6) * (5/6) = 3.33
Power Fist: 5 * (4/6) * (5/6) = 2.78 (Instant Death)

vs MEQ
Frost Axe: 6 * (4/6) * (5/6) = 3.33
Power Axe: 6 * (4/6) * (4/6) = 2.67
Power Fist: 5 * (4/6) * (5/6) = 2.78 (Instant Death)

vs TEQ
Frost Axe: 6 * (4/6) * (5/6) * (4/6) = 2.22
Power Axe: 6 * (4/6) * (4/6) * (4/6) = 1.78
Power Fist: 5 * (4/6) * (5/6) * (4/6) = 1.85 (Instant Death)

vs MC (WS 8 T6)
Frost Axe: 6 * (3/6) * (3/6) = 1.50
Power Axe: 6 * (3/6) * (2/6) = 1.00
Power Fist: 5 * (3/6) * (5/6) = 2.08

Those numbers are for your basic Wolf Lord, on foot, wielding either a Frost Axe, Power Axe, or Power Fist. Here's what it means:
- The Power Fist can deal with harder targets better than the Frost Axe because it can cause Instant Death to everything T4 or less while the Frost Axe can only cause Instant Death to targets with T3 or less.
- The Power Fist wounds T6 models on a 2+ instead of the Frost Axe's 4+.
- Against T4 and less, the Frost Axe causes 20% more wounds than the Power Fist if and only if you get 6 attacks instead of 5. If you take a Storm Shield, you'll be stuck at 5 attacks on the charge.

The Power Fist is more versatile and for most builds I run across, both online and on the table, the Wolf Lord has a Storm Shield for that 3++ Save meaning the Frost Axe causes the same number of wounds, but they are less lethal. This "lethality" gap widens noticeably when you throw the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount.

Keep in mind Cowmo that these numbers you've computed are expected values. Without also computing standard deviations (hard to do) it's really difficult to say how often you should expect the expected value. (pun intended).

Try working with probabilities which, while more time consuming, it will give you a better picture. Still, I think we're on the same page with this issue.

Next up WOLF TOOTH NECKLACES !

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Really?

I was sure they were cheaper.

Still, the Frost Axe is going to be superior most of the time due to the second attack over the PF.

Wrong again. Because most characters who will take a frost axe (like a Wolf Lord) will also take a storm shield for the 3+ invulnerable save and that removes your pistol - hence your extra attack goes away. You can of course take a Belt of Russ (25 pts) in lieu of a storm shield (30 pts) if you're willing to downgrade to a 4+ invuln. But then the difference is still meh.

Exactly. Why bother with an AP2 unwieldly weapon unless you plan on killing Terminators or ICs... y'know, the guys who can run around and ID your Lord with ease if he doesn't have a shield to back him up.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Really?

I was sure they were cheaper.

Still, the Frost Axe is going to be superior most of the time due to the second attack over the PF.

Wrong again. Because most characters who will take a frost axe (like a Wolf Lord) will also take a storm shield for the 3+ invulnerable save and that removes your pistol - hence your extra attack goes away. You can of course take a Belt of Russ (25 pts) in lieu of a storm shield (30 pts) if you're willing to downgrade to a 4+ invuln. But then the difference is still meh.

Exactly. Why bother with an AP2 unwieldly weapon unless you plan on killing Terminators or ICs... y'know, the guys who can run around and ID your Lord with ease if he doesn't have a shield to back him up.

A'yup.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Keep in mind Cowmo that these numbers you've computed are expected values. Without also computing standard deviations (hard to do) it's really difficult to say how often you should expect the expected value. (pun intended).

Truth. I mainly don't run that down out of laziness, and I'm just looking for ballpark effectiveness usually. Outliers happen too often in a game of dice.