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Ok so I am still fairly new to the 40K world but in quite sure I'm not missing anything at this point..
Why in the world would any player choose a frost axe for their HQ's at 10 points to strike at +2 strength and Initiative 1
When you can pay the same price for a power fist at *2 strength..

Does anyone else think that the frost axe should become +2 strength as is however the user keeps normal initiative and simply up the cost to 30 points.
That of the space wolf thunder hammer.
The normal wolf lord even on a thunder wolf would only become strength 7 with this so it's not like you can cause instant death to most models..
I think this would make a cool distinction between the Frost blade and axe being the point difference especially some the premier wolf lord model is wielding a frost axe..

You get +1A for having a second CCW with a Frost Axe, its also cheaper than a power fist.

The real question is, why would you take a power fist when a Frost Axe is almost as good for much cheaper.

A power fist is only going to be more desirable against vehicles really.


Striking at I1 is the price you pay for being AP2.

 Grey Templar wrote:
cheaper than a power fist.

Wrong. It costs exactly the same as a powerfist.

I believe axes didn't count as initiative 1 until this edition. The SW codex came around in 5th edition. So, yeah. There really is no point in taking it when you can get a powerfist for the same price.

Prior to this edition, the was no difference between an Axe and a Sword, or a maul, or a halberd....

Be glad being a Frost Axe has a benefit over a normal power axe.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Be glad being a Frost Axe has a benefit over a normal power axe.

But there's still no point in taking it instead of a power fist now.

Ohh ok so you guys are basically saying the 6th ed just kind of outdated the SW 5th edition codex..
In terms of the frost axe.

The answer is because the axe is not a specialized weapon.

I won't post rules, that is not usually allowed on forums, but take a look at the limitations of specialized weapons. As the axe lacks this restriction it can be paired with any other weapon to gain an additional attack during the assault phase as per standard rules. While most war gear does not start with a melee weapon as standard many HQ units, 'leader models' and the likes do have them listed for the purpose of 'duel wielding' weapons. If they are listed then purchasing additional melee weapons, without the 'replace' limitation, will gain you this additional attack.

Now I will admit I don't know the exact layout of this unit, but I am sure the answer is along those lines. If it doesn't begin with close combat weapons, or this replaces them, then your question is justified. It would be stupid not to take the one which gives you the greater boon for the same cost. After all you never know just what situation you might be in, finding yourself near a vehicle and really want to pop it open to get at the goodies inside. Oh yeah, keep in mind that having anything more then 2 strength higher then their toughness gives you no additional benefit.

 Wilytank wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Be glad being a Frost Axe has a benefit over a normal power axe.

But there's still no point in taking it instead of a power fist now.

Not correct. Its the same benefit as a PF vs most opponents for far cheaper, while also getting a second attack.

Str6 AP2 is going to wound the majority of things on 2+ with no armor, exactly like a PF.

The only way a PF is superior is against T6+ and vehicles. T6+ is very rare and for vehicles a Melta Bomb is going to be a cheaper and more effective way to deal with it.

The only thing you miss out on is more potential ID, and frankly that's not worth paying almost twice as much for.

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
Ohh ok so you guys are basically saying the 6th ed just kind of outdated the SW 5th edition codex..
In terms of the frost axe.

Yeah, in more ways than this actually.

JinxDragon wrote:
The answer is because the axe is not a specialized weapon.

I won't post rules, that is not usually allowed on forums, but take a look at the limitations of specialized weapons. As the axe lacks this restriction it can be paired with any other weapon to gain an additional attack during the assault phase. While most war gear does not start with a melee weapon as standard, many HQ units, 'leader models' and the likes do have them listed. If they are listed then purchasing additional melee weapons, without the 'replace' limitation, will gain you an additional attack.

Now I will admit I don't know the exact layout of this unit, but I am sure the answer is along those lines. If it doesn't begin with close combat weapons, or this replaces them, then your question is justified. It would be stupid not to take the one which gives you the greater boon for the same cost.

The general consensus seems to be that losing an attack is a fair trade for S8 instead of S6.

The power fist costs the exact same as the frost blade in the space wolf FAQ

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Be glad being a Frost Axe has a benefit over a normal power axe.

But there's still no point in taking it instead of a power fist now.

Not correct. Its the same benefit as a PF vs most opponents for far cheaper, while also getting a second attack.

 Wilytank wrote:

Wrong. It costs exactly the same as a powerfist.

Really?

I was sure they were cheaper.

Still, the Frost Axe is going to be superior most of the time due to the second attack over the PF.

Wily tank and jinx dragon
Thanks! That actually makes perfect since. Sorry I didn't see that before posting as I said I'm still fairly new and that seems to be a bit of an in depth rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yea man the space wolf FAQ has them both at 10 points now for wolf lords and battle leaders. And thanks that's a good point.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Really?

I was sure they were cheaper.

Still, the Frost Axe is going to be superior most of the time due to the second attack over the PF.

If I really wanted that extra attack, I'd save the points and get a standard power axe. A fist on a Thunderwolf Cav. is squishing everything short of a biker boss. Besides, both the Wolf Lord and Cavalry have base 4 attacks, I think that's enough.

On HQ units its always better to have the SX2 over the S+2. They get more than enough attacks they don't need the extra attack, but if your pairing Melee weapons for shredding infantry, beating MCs into submission and knocking about Vehicles you can always pair it with a wolf claw and get the bonus attack for both. But 'out of the box' bang for your buck even on Wolf Guard you're better off with the power fist or save points and just get a power axe.

Frankly I would have liked a different rule on Axes, something that halves init rather than sets init at 1. Would be a hefty flaw but still swing faster than the SX2 heavy hitters.

I'd say a mounted WolfLord with Warrior Born saga would be better off with the Frost Axe.
You need to maximise those attacks to get the most out of the saga.

Bausk:

Yep, that is normally the way I go about it with HQ units myself. As you are wielding specialized weapons in both hands you get additional attacks and the higher bonuses these weapons provide. Most HQ units, though not all and defiantly not the usual bulk of named HQ units, let you customize the weapon load out. Nothing prevents you from gearing the HQ unit up for melee, though many times that can prevent them from doing any shooting.

 grendel083 wrote:
I'd say a mounted WolfLord with Warrior Born saga would be better off with the Frost Axe.
You need to maximise those attacks to get the most out of the saga.

In that case you're better off with a Wolf claw to pair with the Fist as I said previously or just using a frost blade, because warrior born will be mincing though troops more than anything with a 2+. So you need the init more than the AP with that saga IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Bausk:

Yep, that is normally the way I go about it with HQ units myself. As you are wielding specialized weapons in both hands you get additional attacks and the higher bonuses these weapons provide. Most HQ units, though not all and defiantly not the usual bulk of named HQ units, let you customize the weapon load out. Nothing prevents you from gearing the HQ unit up for melee, though many times that can prevent them from doing any shooting.

Most of my HQs have a single melee and retain a ranged weapon. But my Wolf Lord simply had to have a Power Fist/Frost Blade combo, damn the lack of bonus attack I say he needed a choice between heavy punches or +1S Power Sword goodness.

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
Ohh ok so you guys are basically saying the 6th ed just kind of outdated the SW 5th edition codex..
In terms of the frost axe.

In short, yes. when the rules were first published for the frost axe, all power weapons simply ignored armour saves and hit at notmal initiative. Frost weapons ignored saves and gave +1 strenght.

in 6th edition different power weapons got diferent rules to make them more unique. updates like this often nerf some specific codex rules, as has happened in this case. As other posters have said, the benefit of a frost axe over power fist is that it still gets an extra attack when used with another CC weapon.

I thought the power fist did as well? They are both specialist weapons?

A specialist weapon requires another specialist weapon to give the +1A bonus. a PF is a specialist weapon, a frost axe is not.

Right, so all sense points against the frost blade..?

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
I thought the power fist did as well? They are both specialist weapons?

Your Thunderlord doesn't need extra attacks! lol! Seems frost axe is tops as it gives you ap2 and +2 str. Money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and an additional attack with 2 ccws...

I know I'm just trying to figure out why they even bother with it in the codex from what I'm gathering it is simply outdated...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Really?

I was sure they were cheaper.

Still, the Frost Axe is going to be superior most of the time due to the second attack over the PF.

Yeah and extra attack... if you're running him with a Bolt/Plasma Pistol. I think you're far more likely to give him a Storm Shield, in which case there is absolutely no sense in taking a Frost Axe over a Power Fist.

It comes down to this
Wolf Lord with Power Fist and any Weapon but a second Power Fist, Thunderhammer or Wolf claw:
Strength: 8
Armor Penetration: 2
Initiative: 1
Attacks: 4

Wolf Lord with Frost Axe and any Weapon but a Power Fist, Thunderhammer or Wolf claw:
Strength: 6
Armor Penetration: 2
Initiative: 1
Attacks: 5

Thunderlord with Power Fist and any Weapon but a second Power Fist, Thunderhammer or Wolf claw:
Strength: 10
Armor Penetration: 2
Initiative: 1
Attacks: 5

Wolf Lord with Frost Axe and any Weapon but a Power Fist, Thunderhammer or Wolf claw:
Strength: 7
Armor Penetration: 2
Initiative: 1
Attacks: 6

It then all comes down to what you want him to do. If you think the Extra Attack [and extra wound on most things out there] go with the Frost Axe.
You want to trash Vehicles or Instant Death Models, take the Power Fist.

That was very well layed out thank you, but if you gain an additional attack for having two specialist weapons and a power fist is a specialist weapon then why are you stating you won't gain the additional attack when wielding the fist+another weapon?
Please excuse me if that was a dumb or out dated question as stated in the beginning of thread I'm still fairly new to the game.

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
That was very well layed out thank you, but if you gain an additional attack for having two specialist weapons and a power fist is a specialist weapon then why are you stating you won't gain the additional attack when wielding the fist+another weapon?
Please excuse me if that was a dumb or out dated question as stated in the beginning of thread I'm still fairly new to the game.

In order to get an additional attack with a specialist weapon the model has to have two of the same weapon.

As mentioned above... if running a storm shield, a power fist is the way to go.

BTW- no question is a dumb question my friend.

 Byte wrote:

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
That was very well layed out thank you, but if you gain an additional attack for having two specialist weapons and a power fist is a specialist weapon then why are you stating you won't gain the additional attack when wielding the fist+another weapon?
Please excuse me if that was a dumb or out dated question as stated in the beginning of thread I'm still fairly new to the game.

In order to get an additional attack with a specialist weapon the model has to have two of the same weapon.

Not correct. You only require another weapon with the Specialist rule.

having a LC and a PF will give you +1A with either weapon.


You're thinking of last edition where you did need an identical weapon to get the benefit.

Ohhh I thought you just needed two specialist weapons and they could be different to gain the bonus attack.
And good point thanks!