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GTKA666 wrote:
Pathfinders still rend on a 5+ right?

Alas, no.

I really don't get why it wouldn't work? In the deployment phase you nominate he's in the unit therefore conferring infiltrate to the unit like with hurons warlord trait you confer it to either the character or the squad (either doesn't really matter) meaning the whole unit can infiltrate unless your saying id have to leave either Huron or the squad hes in behind based on who I gave it too.. because I never set them on the board in coherency or in reserves together?

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
I really don't get why it wouldn't work? In the deployment phase you nominate he's in the unit therefore conferring infiltrate to the unit like with hurons warlord trait you confer it to either the character or the squad (either doesn't really matter) meaning the whole unit can infiltrate unless your saying id have to leave either Huron or the squad hes in behind based on who I gave it too.. because I never set them on the board in coherency or in reserves together?

It doesn't work because you don't get to nominate that an IC is joining a unit unless they're both going into Reserves. As, in this case, neither are going into reserves you can only join an IC to a unit by deploying the IC in coherency with it. But if one has Infiltrate, and the other does not, then the one that doesn't will have to be deployed on the table before Infiltrators get deployed. At which point it is far too late to Infiltrate that unit.

 cute-hydra wrote:

That said if you deployed Illic in combat (alone as he's the only one who can deploy as such) and then a unit of 5 rangers (with him joined to it) on the other side of the board, the enemy unit would batter Illic and then have to move 3 inches a turn towards the rangers on the other side of the board (to pile in) the rangers would have to do the same (effectively locking both units out of the game)

I don't think this is accurate. The close combat rules prevent this, iirc. On any given initiative step that has at least 1 player pile-in models, if the combined pile-in moves don't result in base contact, you move to combat resolution. If the end of combat pile-in doesn't result in base contact, the combat ends.

Chrysis wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
I really don't get why it wouldn't work? In the deployment phase you nominate he's in the unit therefore conferring infiltrate to the unit like with hurons warlord trait you confer it to either the character or the squad (either doesn't really matter) meaning the whole unit can infiltrate unless your saying id have to leave either Huron or the squad hes in behind based on who I gave it too.. because I never set them on the board in coherency or in reserves together?

It doesn't work because you don't get to nominate that an IC is joining a unit unless they're both going into Reserves. As, in this case, neither are going into reserves you can only join an IC to a unit by deploying the IC in coherency with it. But if one has Infiltrate, and the other does not, then the one that doesn't will have to be deployed on the table before Infiltrators get deployed. At which point it is far too late to Infiltrate that unit.

Which would mean that for a chaos unit to infiltrate id have to give both huron AND his unit infiltrate.. which isn't right and its an identical circumstance?

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
I really don't get why it wouldn't work? In the deployment phase you nominate he's in the unit therefore conferring infiltrate to the unit like with hurons warlord trait you confer it to either the character or the squad (either doesn't really matter) meaning the whole unit can infiltrate unless your saying id have to leave either Huron or the squad hes in behind based on who I gave it too.. because I never set them on the board in coherency or in reserves together?

It doesn't work because you don't get to nominate that an IC is joining a unit unless they're both going into Reserves. As, in this case, neither are going into reserves you can only join an IC to a unit by deploying the IC in coherency with it. But if one has Infiltrate, and the other does not, then the one that doesn't will have to be deployed on the table before Infiltrators get deployed. At which point it is far too late to Infiltrate that unit.

Which would mean that for a chaos unit to infiltrate id have to give both huron AND his unit infiltrate.. which isn't right and its an identical circumstance?

But it is right. While an IC with Infiltrate can allow a unit without to Outflank (Declare you are putting both together in reserves as per IC deployment rules), it can't allow a unit without Infiltrate to Infiltrate.

But having a Character with infiltrate gives it to the unit meaning the unit your infiltrating has infiltrate as soon as you place them on the board just as many a chaos player have done this with there warlord trait and no ones ever said a thing? What I see says they have it when I place them with him. So if I have a squad with infiltrate in a rhino I can either deploy normally or outflank I cant infiltrate the rhino because if I chose to infiltrate it wouldn't have the rule yet and Id have to place it in reserve.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
But having a Character with infiltrate gives it to the unit meaning the unit your infiltrating has infiltrate as soon as you place them on the board just as many a chaos player have done this with there warlord trait and no ones ever said a thing? What I see says they have it when I place them with him. So if I have a squad with infiltrate in a rhino I can either deploy normally or outflank I cant infiltrate the rhino because if I chose to infiltrate it wouldn't have the rule yet and Id have to place it in reserve.

No, you're getting confused. There's two cases here being talked about.

1. Huron. He has a special rule, namely his Warlord trait, that allows him to grant d3 units the Infiltrate special rule. This means he can pick d3 units and give them the rule, so that they may Infiltrate. This will pass on to dedicated transports in the way the Infiltrate rulebook describes. What this doesn't mean is that you can use his rule to give Infiltrate to an IC and then attach him to a unit to Infiltrate both. If you want to Infiltrate a unit with attached IC you'll either have to grant both of them Infiltrate (hoping you get 2+ on that d3) or have one of them already have Infiltrate. So Huron can give Infiltrate to a unit, and then they Infiltrate with their Dedicated Transport (because the Infiltrate rules allow this), but can't give himself Infiltrate and then join a unit to drag them with him.

2. Illic. Illic himself has the Infiltrate rule, but not a special rule giving it to other units. What people want to do is join him to a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate and then Infiltrate them both together, which doesn't work because of when an IC joins a unit.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
But having a Character with infiltrate gives it to the unit meaning the unit your infiltrating has infiltrate as soon as you place them on the board just as many a chaos player have done this with there warlord trait and no ones ever said a thing? What I see says they have it when I place them with him. So if I have a squad with infiltrate in a rhino I can either deploy normally or outflank I cant infiltrate the rhino because if I chose to infiltrate it wouldn't have the rule yet and Id have to place it in reserve.

Basically yes. It is entirely down to the correct (by the BRB) order in which deployment is conducted.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
But having a Character with infiltrate gives it to the unit meaning the unit your infiltrating has infiltrate as soon as you place them on the board just as many a chaos player have done this with there warlord trait and no ones ever said a thing? What I see says they have it when I place them with him. So if I have a squad with infiltrate in a rhino I can either deploy normally or outflank I cant infiltrate the rhino because if I chose to infiltrate it wouldn't have the rule yet and Id have to place it in reserve.

If I understand right the reason it wouldn't work is simply based on the order in which events occur in the game. As you say the squad would receive the Infiltrate USR as soon as you place them on the board, however they have to have Infiltrate BEFORE being placed on the table in order to be deployed via Infiltration. So if you deploy them as if they had infiltrate before they even have the infiltrate rule then it's an illegal deployment. And of course they would have infiltrate once they're on the table but by then it's too late to deploy them via infiltration as they're already deployed. I believe this is why it won't work, could be wrong though

I have NEVER seen it play that way.. ill wait for the FAQ to be see if it says anything I guess ill be outflanking illic 15 guardians with dual fusion a warlock and Fuegan until such a day tho it doesn't make any sense.

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
But having a Character with infiltrate gives it to the unit meaning the unit your infiltrating has infiltrate as soon as you place them on the board just as many a chaos player have done this with there warlord trait and no ones ever said a thing? What I see says they have it when I place them with him. So if I have a squad with infiltrate in a rhino I can either deploy normally or outflank I cant infiltrate the rhino because if I chose to infiltrate it wouldn't have the rule yet and Id have to place it in reserve.

If I understand right the reason it wouldn't work is simply based on the order in which events occur in the game. As you say the squad would receive the Infiltrate USR as soon as you place them on the board, however they have to have Infiltrate BEFORE being placed on the table in order to be deployed via Infiltration. So if you deploy them as if they had infiltrate before they even have the infiltrate rule then it's an illegal deployment. And of course they would have infiltrate once they're on the table but by then it's too late to deploy them via infiltration as they're already deployed. I believe this is why it won't work, could be wrong though

Yes, that's exactly why. Although Overlord Zerrtin's examples are actually of completely different things with no bearing on this discussion. Huron has a Warlord trait that actually gives units the Infiltrate rule, so there's no order of operations problems related to him. And the squad in Rhino situation is also irrelevant because the Infiltrate rules specifically cover it.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
I have NEVER seen it play that way.. ill wait for the FAQ to be see if it says anything I guess ill be outflanking illic 15 guardians with dual fusion a warlock and Fuegan until such a day tho it doesn't make any sense.

Then your locla players are wrong, simply put

There was an FAQ for 5th that allowed you to join ICs to units before deployment, then place them on the table. This FAQ was removed for 6th edition. Your local players are likely confused.

GTKA666 wrote:
Pathfinders still rend on a 5+ right?

Nope.

Heres hoping we see an update to his rules the same a shrike has ...

Page92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen. Replace this entry with the following: “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule)

... did take nearly a year last time.

 Tri wrote:
Heres hoping we see an update to his rules the same a shrike has ...

Page92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen. Replace this entry with the following: “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule)

... did take nearly a year last time.

6th came out last July...

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Tri wrote:
Heres hoping we see an update to his rules the same a shrike has ...

Page92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen. Replace this entry with the following: “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule)

... did take nearly a year last time.

6th came out last July...

didn't work in 5th ether if i remember correctly

I believe this trick works with Malys (DE archon) as she can nominate D3 units to be redeployed.

Place Illic and a squad, joining them as one unit giving them all infiltrate. Then redeploy them with Malys, using infiltrate or place them in reserve.

This makes the whole can't give them the ability till they are on the table argument moot.

MandalorynOranj wrote: Why would anyone want to Infiltrate a sniper character close to the enemy? I can see that making sense with Striking Scorpions, since they have Infiltrate base, to set them up in a desirable position, but alone? That's just pointless suicide.

Not at all. Illic allows pathfinders to deepstrike next to him. You can bring in objective-claiming units right into the enemy's deployment zone. Also, there is nothing preventing you from infiltrating into base contact with your opponent's quadgun and firing it at him first turn- that's just hilarious, and Illic gets quite a few bonuses to firing it. He's also not too shabby in close combat.

In summary, there are quite a few nifty tricks he can do, he has rules that, in my opinion, kheradruakh the decapitator should have had.

deevil wrote:
I believe this trick works with Malys (DE archon) as she can nominate D3 units to be redeployed.

Place Illic and a squad, joining them as one unit giving them all infiltrate. Then redeploy them with Malys, using infiltrate or place them in reserve.

This makes the whole can't give them the ability till they are on the table argument moot.

This was FAQed to make it not possible:

DE FAQ wrote: Note that units redeployed in this manner, who are not placed in reserve, may not be deployed outside of the controlling player's deployment zone.

Oh yeah I see that, oh well. The fantasy was nice while it lasted. Is there no one else that provides a similar ability. it seems the only way to add Illic to a non infiltrator unit and make it work...

Most people I know are fine with allowing an IC to join pre-deployment (that at least seems to be the intent based on 5th edition). However, most know that it is a house-rule.

It's compounded by the ruling in 5th that allowed IC to join units before deployment, and by the fact that the RAW in the BRB are really, to be honest, rather vague.

And I'm saying this not because of the part in Independent Characters being deployed in coherency, but rather the part in deploying transport vehicles, specifically Dedicated Transports, where it states "only the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined the unit) can deploy within it."

That implies that the joining process can take place before proper deployment. What we've got right now is this sort of hodgepodge where characters can join units in reserve prior to deployment, apparently join units in transports prior to deployment (but maybe it's just poorly worded), and a rule that implies that characters have to be deployed separately, but can join a unit during deployment.

In short, GW needs to FAQ it. FAQ it hard.

GTKA666 wrote:
Pathfinders still rend on a 5+ right?

No.

I don't get what all of this stuff going on about Illic is. The rules all seem very very clear to me. Only one I can have questions about is the deploy locked in combat. I vaguely remember something saying that you can't ever be closer than 1" ever (save for close combat). I feel like he's pretty close to useless. His pathfinders are grossly over priced. He himself is nothing special. He only has 1 shot, which ~11/12 times won't kill a character. Sure it'll take out special weapons, but rangers will do that one perfectly fine on their own. Even if you do get pathfinders, chances are you'll put them with Illic, but then their shroud becomes a useless upgrade and you're paying all of those points for the precision shots that frankly aren't really needed at that point. Cool? Sure. Points effective? Meh.

I don't think he'll see any real competitive play. Every other HQ is better.

 Happyjew wrote:
Most people I know are fine with allowing an IC to join pre-deployment (that at least seems to be the intent based on 5th edition). However, most know that it is a house-rule.

If you continue allowing this house rule, you will break the game. This means that Illic, with your house rules, will be able to deploy 10 S4 AP2 Distort flamers in your opponent's face. This is broken beyond anything that has even been broken before. 5th ed GK gasp and cry at the amount of broken this would be.

 Sothas wrote:

If you continue allowing this house rule, you will break the game. This means that Illic, with your house rules, will be able to deploy 10 S4 AP2 Distort flamers in your opponent's face. This is broken beyond anything that has even been broken before. 5th ed GK gasp and cry at the amount of broken this would be.

Technically the issue of an IC joining a squad before deployment is rather separate from the issue of whether Illic's special infiltrate affects squads that he might theoretically be able to join before deployment.

So in theory you could allow IC's to join squads before deployment (and that's the way I expect GW to rule it if they ever bother to), but not allow Illic to sneak an entire squad of 8 foot tall robots within arm's reach of the enemies (which is also the way I expect GW to FAQ that when they get around to it).

Raesvelg wrote:

 Sothas wrote:

If you continue allowing this house rule, you will break the game. This means that Illic, with your house rules, will be able to deploy 10 S4 AP2 Distort flamers in your opponent's face. This is broken beyond anything that has even been broken before. 5th ed GK gasp and cry at the amount of broken this would be.

Technically the issue of an IC joining a squad before deployment is rather separate from the issue of whether Illic's special infiltrate affects squads that he might theoretically be able to join before deployment.

So in theory you could allow IC's to join squads before deployment (and that's the way I expect GW to rule it if they ever bother to), but not allow Illic to sneak an entire squad of 8 foot tall robots within arm's reach of the enemies (which is also the way I expect GW to FAQ that when they get around to it).

I take back what I said so I'm editing it. I'm pretty sure you can't attach the dude to even outflank given that you put them in reserve when they deploy, and he has to deploy last, meaning you can't attach him and they all of a sudden outflank the squad.

 Tri wrote:
Heres hoping we see an update to his rules the same a shrike has ...

Page92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen. Replace this entry with the following: “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule)

... did take nearly a year last time.

Technically this still does not allow Shrike to infiltrate with a unit because he would have to join before deployment... and the rules for ICs joining units state that they join after deployment if they are deployed in coherency with that unit. So it has been argued when I created a thread ICs and them conferring infiltrate to units. The rule he has is actually hardly any different from the infiltrate rule in that respect. If ICs with infiltrate could join a squad before deployment, then that squad would be able to infiltrate - but they can't so they can't infiltrate.

I think i have away around, feel free to correct me if i missed anything (which i have a feeling i have). Deploy illic with which ever squad you whish to infultrate normally, then using eldrads power hope to redeploy 2 squads, redeploy illic and said squad who now should have infiltrate. (Havent got codex on me so this may be very off)


Actually you will only have to redeploy 1 squad as the BRB states when an ID joinds a unit, the id and unit count as being one.

Does Eldrad's ability specify that it has to be in your deployment zone? If not then that should work.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Does Eldrad's ability specify that it has to be in your deployment zone? If not then that should work.

It does specify that, so this doesn't work.