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I woul change all your serpents to "Dakka Serpents" with Scatter L. and underslung SC for the 9-14 TL S6/7 shots.

Then swap some of your D. scythe Wraith to fire dragons or Wraith cannon units for anti tank.

This gives you good anti air, anti infantry and anti tank. Plus the list is a little less spammy.

 ansacs wrote:
Against triple helldrake CSM lists you will have a hellish time as the vector strikes will pop ~2 wavserpents a turn

Where do you get that?

A vector strike has 2-4 STR 7 hits. Each hit has a 1/3 chance of taking a hull point off. (As only rolls of 5 or 6 will do any good). That means all 3 dragons hitting one serpent will, on average wreck it.
There is a big difference between wrecking one serpent a turn and 2 -- especially since the drakes only come in from turn 2. Don't forget if the serpents move behind the drakes they will be vectored' by less drakes the following turn. Don't forget rear shots on drakes are very effective. Enough STR 6 shots will down a drake.

and don't forget that the wave serpant have a 4+ jink save if you give it the upgrade.

 Makutsu wrote:
and don't forget that the wave serpant have a 4+ jink save if you give it the upgrade.

In fact, Serpents are rather resilient and have a decent damage output (with scatterlaser, underslung shuricannon) in the new edition. So I'm looking forward to play testing a Serpent spam army. But the above army is a bit too monodimensional.

I think you're overestimating your ability to overwatch everything to death. What happens if he charges with two units? Say the hounds and then the Daemon Prince? You only get to overwatch the first one.

Then that's a WG unit gone, but 1/4 of his army devoted to killing one troops choice, putting them in prime position to get counter-flamed the next turn.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, there is a way to deal with flyers. For this, I'd give the Serpent scatter laser and underslung shuricannon. Then laserlock and downed Serpent shield allows to fire a S7 A1+D6 weapon ignoring cover. This should be enough to damage or pop flyers.

Hmm now looking at it Scatter lasers are the best option for WS. Thanks!

MarkyMark wrote:

One idea is to give every Scytheserpent a Conceal Warlock, so even when downed the WG get a tasty 2+ cover save in the ruin of their Wave Serpent (not to mention a 3+ Cover on the WS itself). On paper it sounds good, but it doesn't address the current meta threats hugely (i.e. drakes, markerlights) so might be a little superfluous. I'd much rather keep the 5 Scytheserpents than sacrifice one for LD8 locks.

No can do read the warlock entry in back of dex.

It sounds like it could do ok, its a little all or nothing list but against hordes you need to flame them first as if they pop your tanks and charge your troops they should be able to die them up for the game.

Herp, Codex reading fail. Iyanden allows me to take Spiritseer councils though, can I split them up into ICs or do I have to take them as a single unit? For 70 points I might take two Spiritseers. Maybe a Wraithknight to provide (mediocre) counter assault and a distraction? Fuegan? This list badly needs strong counter-assault, in my opinion. Shining Spears are quite attractive.

tedurur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, there is a way to deal with flyers. For this, I'd give the Serpent scatter laser and underslung shuricannon. Then laserlock and downed Serpent shield allows to fire a S7 A1+D6 weapon ignoring cover. This should be enough to damage or pop flyers.

Against an Av11 flyer a serpent with this configuration will cause ~1.5 hull points to be removed. and roughly 0.75 pens. Assuming the scatters manage to hit tht is...

wuestenfux wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, there is a way to deal with flyers. For this, I'd give the Serpent scatter laser and underslung shuricannon. Then laserlock and downed Serpent shield allows to fire a S7 A1+D6 weapon ignoring cover. This should be enough to damage or pop flyers.

Against an Av11 flyer a serpent with this configuration will cause ~1.5 hull points to be removed. and roughly 0.75 pens. Assuming the scatters manage to hit tht is...

Indeed, the Serpents need to concentrate fire on the flyers. But this should not be a problem since flyers will arrive in turn 2 and the army can be accordingly repositioned in turn one.
For instance, we have a CSM player fielding 3 Helldrakes and 3 Maulerfiends. First turn, I'd concentrate fire on the Maulerfiends and in turn two, on the Helldrakes.

tedurur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, there is a way to deal with flyers. For this, I'd give the Serpent scatter laser and underslung shuricannon. Then laserlock and downed Serpent shield allows to fire a S7 A1+D6 weapon ignoring cover. This should be enough to damage or pop flyers.

Against an Av11 flyer a serpent with this configuration will cause ~1.5 hull points to be removed. and roughly 0.75 pens. Assuming the scatters manage to hit tht is...

Indeed, the Serpents need to concentrate fire on the flyers. But this should not be a problem since flyers will arrive in turn 2 and the army can be accordingly repositioned in turn one.
For instance, we have a CSM player fielding 3 Helldrakes and 3 Maulerfiends. First turn, I'd concentrate fire on the Maulerfiends and in turn two, on the Helldrakes.

indeed, its actually very good.For instance, the Aegis Quad gun will remove ~1.77 hull points

I don't want to field Aegis Quads.. 'Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man,' -Georgie S. Patton.

Thariinye wrote:I do like Wave Serpents, and the survivability of WG. I'm not sure that it can make up an entire army, but it probably does have a place. I think that 2 x WS is really nice as allies. Two nice tanks with hardy scoring units inside really gives armies like Tau (Or Dark Eldar hehe) some resiliency options.

I would probably vary up the equipment a bit myself. For the serpents, I like having a TL Scatter Laser + Shuriken Cannon as the weapons. 7 TL S6 shots is really nice against many targets, and you can use Wraithguard as anti-vehicle themselves if you don't use D-scythes. With that amount of shots, with at least 4 TL against flyers, even without skyfire you've got a reasonable chance to put damage on a Nightscythe. I haven't mathhammered this out yet, so if someone could do that that would be great.

I'd probably have at least one unit with just wraithcannons, and you put the spiritseer in that unit so you can use his curse-whatever to reroll some hits. This also saves you 50 points. Yes they don't have the stupid good overwatch, but if played well you'll just kill what's near enough to charge you, and then get back into your tank. The other unit(s) can have D-scythes.

So I don't think that every troop unit should be Wraith-troop, but Wave Serpent spam does seem viable, and with a variety of troops, including wraith guard (maybe even wraithblades) Eldar have a reasonable ability to make plays at objectives. In Eldar main, varying it up with Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock w/ Conceal gives you a lot of ability to either hold objectives with T6 fearless infantry, or to zoom onto them last turn with Eldar Jetbikes with 3+ armor and 2+ cover.

I don't rate Wraithblades at all. I'm still not convinced of the merits of D-cannon over scythes, one unit is sufficient I think. If you're using Jetbikes as objective holders, sans Warlock is sufficient, but it's 51 points doing nothing all game, which could make the difference between victory and defeat.

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, the list needs a bit more variety. This would allow you to react more effectively against different kinds of threats.
As said, Serpents with scatter laser, shuricannon and holofield would be more versatile.

I don't deny it. Not entirely sure what to bring for ranged AT/counter assault though... is Fuegan enough?

anonymou5 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


The Pink Horrors are never going to get there, but with FMCs rear armour shots are only possible turn 2, probably three, but most likely four. They can only swoop 24". Even then it's still a 5 to glance vs a 4+ or better cover save.

Ignoring when they will get to rear armor, as that's obviously mission/map dependent. The average vector strike (2 hits at str 6 against AV12) does does .33 HP. The "average" flickering fire (4d6 = 14 shots at BS6) does 2.33 HP with a 19% chance of destroying. The "average" perfect timing + flickering fire (11 shots at BS6) does 3.67 HP with a 28.2% chance of explosion. A FMC has a great chance at killing a WS in one turn of shooting.

Of course, most of the Flying Circuses around here run either Hounds or Seekers with Grimoire support, who should have no issue with AV10 on their turn 1/2 charges. Which opens up the WG for vector strikes and psychic nonsense.

Not entirely sure how the turn 1 charge happens, but rest assured the hounds/seekers will die a horrible flaming death. After that, the Daemon player is faced between landing and assaulting the WG (risking ID) or killing the Wave Serpents. From where that pans out is up to the Dice Gods because it's far from a foregone conclusion.

Hounds can turn 1 charge if Demons go second. 12 inch Scout redeployment plus 12 inch first turn move plus charge range (with Fleet). And good luck killing them all, that's up to 40 t4 wounds rocking a 3++ (Fateweaver puts the Grimoire at 89% odds I believe), or even a 2++ depending on what the LoC gets (or if running heralds instead of a LoC)

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion, just attempting to break down the match up. If I run pure Demons, it's Fateweaver, LoC, a mix of Troops, 18-20 Hounds, and two DPs (usually one rolling Telepathy and one on Biomancy, one holds the Grimoire and one takes the Portaglyph), it's a really nasty and fast build, with a lot of the Demon randomness removed from the equation. It gets cheeiser, but less terrifying if you drop the LoC for three Heralds of Tzeentsch (or two and a herald of Khorne on a Juggernaut). Either way, the Hounds are going to drop a couple of WSs (how many depends entirely on how spread out they are) on turn 2. Turn 3 the remaining Hounds can charge the WG to eat the overwatch (if I decide to charge with the FMCs), or hunt the rest of the WSs and let either enfeeble/Vector Strike and/or Bolt of Change/Change Blast power go to work on the WG. Later turns Plaguebearers/Demoneettes/etc can be used to eat overwatch if assault is necessary. I guess my point is, there is no reason a Fateweaver build should ever have a FMC eating an ID template.

No, it doesn't work like that. Turn one charges are extremely risky. If they're going second and scout, I can get the drop on them by moving up 6", disembarking 9" and flaming them before they can get Grimoire off. Even if they charge on the first turn it would probably be quite difficult to get all 10 hounds into attack range, and even then we're looking at 6's to glance. In any case I would probably deploy roughly 22" from them to bait the charge. Will require a little luck, but 5d3 hits is sure to kill at least the first or second charger, and that's crippling. I play a scout assault army, I know how it works.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Necron ranged weaponry in Wraithwing will struggle to kill WG (T6, 2 Wounds, 3+).

The Spiritseer will go in one of the Wave Serpents to give it Shrouded (2+ cover save!)

Wraithguard only have 1 wound.

No Runes of Battle power can be used on a Wave serpent to give it Shrouded.

Sad times. Totally misread! I've been under the recurrent impression WG were two wounds since 3rd edition. This means this army is hell of a lot worse than I thought it was

wuestenfux wrote:Well, a Serpent army can redeploy quickly making a first turn charge of the Hounds unlikely. But you're, Hounds are a big threat. Concentrating fire on the Hounds should decimate them quickly.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:I woul change all your serpents to "Dakka Serpents" with Scatter L. and underslung SC for the 9-14 TL S6/7 shots.

Then swap some of your D. scythe Wraith to fire dragons or Wraith cannon units for anti tank.

This gives you good anti air, anti infantry and anti tank. Plus the list is a little less spammy.

Units I'm considering: Fuegan, Wraithknight, More Spiritseers, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks (Ignores-Cover Pie-plate and Haywire support), Shining Spears (counter-assault).

Opinions? The problem with Scytheserpent is that it's quite expensive, clocking in at 345 per combo. This makes me want to maximise their threat by taking as many of them as I can fit (just one or two can be handled, four-five becomes unmanageable). This is the dichotomy between TAC and Spam-lists; TAC opens your options up, but conversely narrows your ability to hard-counter.

labmouse42 wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Against triple helldrake CSM lists you will have a hellish time as the vector strikes will pop ~2 wavserpents a turn

Where do you get that?

A vector strike has 2-4 STR 7 hits. Each hit has a 1/3 chance of taking a hull point off. (As only rolls of 5 or 6 will do any good). That means all 3 dragons hitting one serpent will, on average wreck it.
There is a big difference between wrecking one serpent a turn and 2 -- especially since the drakes only come in from turn 2. Don't forget if the serpents move behind the drakes they will be vectored' by less drakes the following turn. Don't forget rear shots on drakes are very effective. Enough STR 6 shots will down a drake.

This is exactly what I meant. They'll get one vector off, and probably lose a drake to rear-armour shots. In any case, no one really takes three.

Units I'm considering: Fuegan, Wraithknight, More Spiritseers, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks (Ignores-Cover Pie-plate and Haywire support), Shining Spears (counter-assault).

Well, I'm not looking at those units. Fuegan is too expensive, Wraithknight underwhelming, Dark Reapers may have too less damage output, Swooping Hawks and Shining Spears are too fragile.

How about a Jetseer with telepathy leading 3 or 6 GJB's with 1 or 2 shuricannons. Generally I tend to field larger squads here. This unit has decent mobility and some damage output (bladestorm, psychic shriek).

 wuestenfux wrote:

Units I'm considering: Fuegan, Wraithknight, More Spiritseers, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks (Ignores-Cover Pie-plate and Haywire support), Shining Spears (counter-assault).

Well, I'm not looking at those units. Fuegan is too expensive, Wraithknight underwhelming, Dark Reapers may have too less damage output, Swooping Hawks and Shining Spears are too fragile.

How about a Jetseer with telepathy leading 3 or 6 GJB's with 1 or 2 shuricannons. Generally I tend to field larger squads here. This unit has decent mobility and some damage output (bladestorm, psychic shriek).

Fuegan is pricey, but he provides a lot of close combat punch and vehicle murder which I think is quite good for the price.

Wraithknights are Jump so they can keep up, and tie up threats like Fast Cavalry while soaking some AT off the Wave Serpents. He's also quite scary to Tau in conjunction with the rest of the army.

Swooping Hawks are a nice throwaway unit you can use to hit his backfield, which is always useful. For their price they're insanely good now.

Shining spears are only as fragile as marines, but mobile enough to ensure they can avoid most of the brunt of firepower while (JSJ) being able to counter-assault quite effectively.

The GJB squad doesn't add anything the army doesn't already have in spades; it needs anti AV and counter-assault. It doesn't need more shots against infantry.

Spears have skilled rider as well so get a 4+ jink save (3+ if they turbo boost)

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Units I'm considering: Fuegan, Wraithknight, More Spiritseers, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks (Ignores-Cover Pie-plate and Haywire support), Shining Spears (counter-assault).

Opinions? The problem with Scytheserpent is that it's quite expensive, clocking in at 345 per combo. This makes me want to maximise their threat by taking as many of them as I can fit (just one or two can be handled, four-five becomes unmanageable). This is the dichotomy between TAC and Spam-lists; TAC opens your options up, but conversely narrows your ability to hard-counter.

Any reason you aren't considering Wraithlords? They got a little pricier, but are solid all-arounders. Two weapons no longer twin-link, so it opens up a lot of options. The sword is cheap and doesn't take up a ranged weapon now. Give it two heavy guns, 2 flamers, and a sword, and I think it's a nice support piece. Plus, it may take some heat off your Serpents. Yeah, they are slower.. but it will give you a threat on the table from turn 1 onwards.

Deathmarks with despairteks make you sad.
My necron build would not fear that list at all. It would not be easy, but I am confident I could deal with the small number of models.

Points sink I think. A balanced tau gun line eg. a more optimised version of the list in the report below, with less points sunk into the two missilesides units and more marker sources to strip cover.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/530959.page

In fact if you're within 30 inches of my 1500 point tau/eldar gun line I could definitely take out 3 hulls on paper...probably have a chance at 4 at 24 inches.

I think if you're spamming serpents you need more hulls, 5/6+ @ 1500 and 6/7+@ 1850, guided/prescienced prisms for TAC flexibility.

You can fill with cheaper min aspects and play the range game against some armies. Scorpions with I6 fists as counter assault? I still don't think it will set the world on fire though. Anything reliant on cover to survive in a meta where Tau are king isn't going fair well imo.

I like the idea of a wraith/serpent core supported by fire prisms . this needs to be explored further.

tbh, nids can counter this to, enough shots from the monstrous creatures, you have no coversave against Hiveguards, and they can easely charge those flamer dudes with gribbles and then get a biggy in, even an iron armed t8 dude they will be unable to wound.

Eh, I wouldn't be too worried about Hive Guard. Remember just how much good strength Dakka Wave Serpents are packing, and the fact that Hive Guard are their main predators. Then you consider that Wave Serpents can open with a Salvo at 36 inches which is comfortably outside of Hive Guard's move and shoot range.

a tl Scatter Laser Wave Serpent is putting out 4 s6 shots, and 2-7 s7 shots, all twin linked at BS4. All of this operating well outside the range of the Hive Guard. A good eldar player excercizing good judgement and target priority should not be losing to Hive Guard, since he can drown them in a torrent of fire before they get a chance to fire at any juicy targets.

You have to see hive guard to shoot. They do not have to see you. A good 'nid player will exploit this advantage by funnelling you into range of the hidden guard. This build is great against lot of armies, but there are a few that just aren't scared by it.

OK look. I really do not want to get into the semantics of this, but hiding upwards of 6-9 40 mm base models out of sight of a bunch of tanks which can move 12 inches and still fire 2 weapons is NOT EASY. Its not like you can just wave your hand and say you can do this, practically speaking you will probably be able to pull this off and keep your Hive Guard in a relevant position to the battle maybe about once in 20 or so games.

Eldar are one of the hardest armies in the game to hide from. Obviously if the Nid Player can hide his Hive Guard he will do so, but Move and Shoot is very powerful for increasing the line of sight of heavy weapons, and having 12 inches of flexibility to do that is even more powerful. afterall only a portion of the model needs to be seen to open fire.

Then you run into the issue of what if the Line of Sight Blocking Terrain isn't in a tactically advantageous position, and the poor Nid Player Puts all his Hive Guard there to protect himself from serpent fire. what happens when the Eldar player has the gall to say, "whatever, I'll just let your Hive Guard sit in that corner and do nothing all game, I'm not flying within 24 inches of that terrain".

What the tyrnaid Player basically needs is great line of sight blocking terrain, in the absolute center of the board so the 24 inch impaler cannons can threaten wherever the Skimmers may zip off to, which CURVES around on both sides, so that the Eldar Player cannot slip to the side and shoot anyway.

Lots of ifs there, and I would absolutely not count on the Tyranid player being able to successfully pull it off consistantly or even rarely.

Tested a similar list out on Vassal, first time in ages using a mech list so a few mistakes made he had a helldrake which really hurts this army!. Lost on secondaries as he went second and contested my only objective with his LoC didnt dare assault them though!. I wiped out all his scoring units, the serpent shield shooting attack is horribly good really!, with TL scatter and shurikan cannon it was a lot of shots.

It has potential I think.

You are correct about the helldrakes. The interesting thing is if anyone is foolish enough to sink all their points in drakes/flyers you can flatout into their deployment zone and get behind their flyers before they come on. I think the SL version is much better to give you a way to deal with flyers.

I am actually liking this list more and more as I think about it.

When I first saw the new codex I was thinking something similar but with 1-2 of the scythe units getting cannons instead and the WS having SL/SC. This makes prescience useful and a cannon squad w/ prescience can be brutal against a flyer or FMC. The problem with the scythes is that prescience does nothing for them and if you switch to SL you lack anti AV13+.

As for all these arguements of a turn 2 charge and 24" range guns killing all the WS why in the world would this list deploy that close to the line against any such list? This list has 5 WS with 60" weapons and can fire to full effect moving 12" a turn. If this list deploys at the back line they can just turboboost across the board to your deployment zone if you manage to swamp their deployment zone. These are skimmers so they can go right over your troops.

They can also turbo boost for a 12+18" movement+boost on turn 1 if you can completely out shoot them. Without using the shields you may be able to strip the full points from the WS but the wraithguard will walk out of the ruins and flame your gunline then charge you. They are better in CC than basic SM by a fair margin so the majority of shooty enemies will find themselves utterly out classed in <12" ranges.

 Makutsu wrote:
and don't forget that the wave serpant have a 4+ jink save if you give it the upgrade.

You don't get cover saves vs Vector Strike.

 ansacs wrote:
You are correct about the helldrakes. The interesting thing is if anyone is foolish enough to sink all their points in drakes/flyers you can flatout into their deployment zone and get behind their flyers before they come on..

There's no "behind" helldrakes, they have 360 degree firing. Getting that close just lets them also vector strike.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You are correct about the helldrakes. The interesting thing is if anyone is foolish enough to sink all their points in drakes/flyers you can flatout into their deployment zone and get behind their flyers before they come on..

There's no "behind" helldrakes, they have 360 degree firing. Getting that close just lets them also vector strike.

And a rear armour of 10? How is this not behind them then?

They also will not be able to vector strike the turn after due to the 90 degree turn limits.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You are correct about the helldrakes. The interesting thing is if anyone is foolish enough to sink all their points in drakes/flyers you can flatout into their deployment zone and get behind their flyers before they come on..

There's no "behind" helldrakes, they have 360 degree firing. Getting that close just lets them also vector strike.

Don't you mean "Doesn't let them vector strike"

A helldrake can only vector strike over what it flies over while not in hover mode. The drake can only turn 90 degrees once during its move. Its actually quite easy to get out of vector strike range.

Yeah against helldrake lists you would be better off staying >36" until they come on and then moving directly behind them. If that is not an option having the WS in their deployment zone turn 2 will only let them vector strike you turn 2 and then they will be open to rear armour shots during your shooting phase. Turn 3 they will not be able to vector strike you again and you can play the same game again he next turn. A helldrake should only get 2 chances to vector strike a WS per game.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


No, it doesn't work like that. Turn one charges are extremely risky. If they're going second and scout, I can get the drop on them by moving up 6", disembarking 9" and flaming them before they can get Grimoire off. Even if they charge on the first turn it would probably be quite difficult to get all 10 hounds into attack range, and even then we're looking at 6's to glance. In any case I would probably deploy roughly 22" from them to bait the charge. Will require a little luck, but 5d3 hits is sure to kill at least the first or second charger, and that's crippling. I play a scout assault army, I know how it works.

Turn 1 Charges are risky. No denying that, I was simply describing how it can happen. If going second I either hide my Hounds, or (depending on match up and whatever other MTO units I'm running), leave them in the open to take all the fire (as far forward as scout move can take them), usually 40 wounds with a 5++ is safe from first blood, and still a decent annoyance unit afterwards.

Hounds have furious charge, it's 5s to glance. I did the math...4.5 Hounds will kill a WS, or 6.75 Hounds if multi assaulting (without accounting for explosions. 4.5 hounds x3 attacks x 2/3 hits x 1/3 HP = 2.94 HP. 6.75 Hounds x 2 attacks x 2/3 hits x 1/3 HP = 2.94 HP). That's not taking into account prescience, which is easy enough to get in a FMC list. (or rage or hatred, which a herald can bring). So, it's not unrealistic to say a full hound pack can remove at least one WS early game, if not multiples (and they can probably still killl one if they get shot to death before the Grimoire goes off really). Again, not a hard counter, but a good way to get WG on the ground and force them to walk (and eat vector strikes or whatever else. As my current tourney list has Hounds, FMCs and Heavy Artillery Carriages in it, I think I'll sacrifice some Hounds to open up barrage victims)

 ansacs wrote:
You are correct about the helldrakes. The interesting thing is if anyone is foolish enough to sink all their points in drakes/flyers you can flatout into their deployment zone and get behind their flyers before they come on. I think the SL version is much better to give you a way to deal with flyers.

I am actually liking this list more and more as I think about it.

When I first saw the new codex I was thinking something similar but with 1-2 of the scythe units getting cannons instead and the WS having SL/SC. This makes prescience useful and a cannon squad w/ prescience can be brutal against a flyer or FMC. The problem with the scythes is that prescience does nothing for them and if you switch to SL you lack anti AV13+.

As for all these arguements of a turn 2 charge and 24" range guns killing all the WS why in the world would this list deploy that close to the line against any such list? This list has 5 WS with 60" weapons and can fire to full effect moving 12" a turn. If this list deploys at the back line they can just turboboost across the board to your deployment zone if you manage to swamp their deployment zone. These are skimmers so they can go right over your troops.

They can also turbo boost for a 12+18" movement+boost on turn 1 if you can completely out shoot them. Without using the shields you may be able to strip the full points from the WS but the wraithguard will walk out of the ruins and flame your gunline then charge you. They are better in CC than basic SM by a fair margin so the majority of shooty enemies will find themselves utterly out classed in <12" ranges.

If you sit on your board edge with over a 1000 points of short ranged wraith guard plinking out on average 20 S7 shots killing 3.7 marines a turn and giving up board control I think you'll have a bad time. You really need to maximise your shooting which is accomplished by getting into the (admittedly more dangerous) sweet spot of 24 inch shuriken cannon range for another 35 S6 shots (assuming scatters too) plus twin linking. I bet those numbers look more impressive...

TL Scatters x5 = 4.94
TL serpent shield = 4.94
TL shuriken = 3.7
13.94 MEQ

Almost 4x the effective firepower plus you are closer to where the wraith guard are doing their damage when you inevitably get de-meched and nearer objectives potentially.

I'm assuming serpent shield as equipment doesn't count towards the two weapons fired by a fast moving vehicle.

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
and don't forget that the wave serpant have a 4+ jink save if you give it the upgrade.

You don't get cover saves vs Vector Strike.

Just checked that it was in the new FAQ, wow Heldrakes got even better.

 Makutsu wrote:
Just checked that it was in the new FAQ, wow Heldrakes got even better.

Helldrakes are the reason the CSM codex is a good one. Without that one model its a 'meh' codex at best.

djn wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You are correct about the helldrakes. The interesting thing is if anyone is foolish enough to sink all their points in drakes/flyers you can flatout into their deployment zone and get behind their flyers before they come on. I think the SL version is much better to give you a way to deal with flyers.

I am actually liking this list more and more as I think about it.

When I first saw the new codex I was thinking something similar but with 1-2 of the scythe units getting cannons instead and the WS having SL/SC. This makes prescience useful and a cannon squad w/ prescience can be brutal against a flyer or FMC. The problem with the scythes is that prescience does nothing for them and if you switch to SL you lack anti AV13+.

As for all these arguements of a turn 2 charge and 24" range guns killing all the WS why in the world would this list deploy that close to the line against any such list? This list has 5 WS with 60" weapons and can fire to full effect moving 12" a turn. If this list deploys at the back line they can just turboboost across the board to your deployment zone if you manage to swamp their deployment zone. These are skimmers so they can go right over your troops.

They can also turbo boost for a 12+18" movement+boost on turn 1 if you can completely out shoot them. Without using the shields you may be able to strip the full points from the WS but the wraithguard will walk out of the ruins and flame your gunline then charge you. They are better in CC than basic SM by a fair margin so the majority of shooty enemies will find themselves utterly out classed in <12" ranges.

If you sit on your board edge with over a 1000 points of short ranged wraith guard plinking out on average 20 S7 shots killing 3.7 marines a turn and giving up board control I think you'll have a bad time. You really need to maximise your shooting which is accomplished by getting into the (admittedly more dangerous) sweet spot of 24 inch shuriken cannon range for another 35 S6 shots (assuming scatters too) plus twin linking. I bet those numbers look more impressive...

TL Scatters x5 = 4.94
TL serpent shield = 4.94
TL shuriken = 3.7
13.94 MEQ

Almost 4x the effective firepower plus you are closer to where the wraith guard are doing their damage when you inevitably get de-meched and nearer objectives potentially.

I'm assuming serpent shield as equipment doesn't count towards the two weapons fired by a fast moving vehicle.

Where are you getting you should stay back against a shooty army (SM) in a post where I have in the next paragraph advocated turbo boosting into a gunline?

Get close enough to flame them against SM. They will die in droves. Against ork, nid, or daemon hordes you may have needs to stay out of range so you can get rid of chaff that would waste your overwatches or you may simply be better off. The 24" comment is in response to the hive guard "threat".

 labmouse42 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

There's no "behind" helldrakes, they have 360 degree firing. Getting that close just lets them also vector strike.

Don't you mean "Doesn't let them vector strike"

A helldrake can only vector strike over what it flies over while not in hover mode. The drake can only turn 90 degrees once during its move. Its actually quite easy to get out of vector strike range.

If you're all up ons his board edge, which is what this conversation is about, you can't avoid two vector strikes if that's what he wants to do. Fly on at a 45 degree angle or less striking one of your guys, next turn, turn and fly off over your guys.

 ansacs wrote:

djn wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You are correct about the helldrakes. The interesting thing is if anyone is foolish enough to sink all their points in drakes/flyers you can flatout into their deployment zone and get behind their flyers before they come on. I think the SL version is much better to give you a way to deal with flyers.

I am actually liking this list more and more as I think about it.

When I first saw the new codex I was thinking something similar but with 1-2 of the scythe units getting cannons instead and the WS having SL/SC. This makes prescience useful and a cannon squad w/ prescience can be brutal against a flyer or FMC. The problem with the scythes is that prescience does nothing for them and if you switch to SL you lack anti AV13+.

As for all these arguements of a turn 2 charge and 24" range guns killing all the WS why in the world would this list deploy that close to the line against any such list? This list has 5 WS with 60" weapons and can fire to full effect moving 12" a turn. If this list deploys at the back line they can just turboboost across the board to your deployment zone if you manage to swamp their deployment zone. These are skimmers so they can go right over your troops.

They can also turbo boost for a 12+18" movement+boost on turn 1 if you can completely out shoot them. Without using the shields you may be able to strip the full points from the WS but the wraithguard will walk out of the ruins and flame your gunline then charge you. They are better in CC than basic SM by a fair margin so the majority of shooty enemies will find themselves utterly out classed in <12" ranges.

If you sit on your board edge with over a 1000 points of short ranged wraith guard plinking out on average 20 S7 shots killing 3.7 marines a turn and giving up board control I think you'll have a bad time. You really need to maximise your shooting which is accomplished by getting into the (admittedly more dangerous) sweet spot of 24 inch shuriken cannon range for another 35 S6 shots (assuming scatters too) plus twin linking. I bet those numbers look more impressive...

TL Scatters x5 = 4.94
TL serpent shield = 4.94
TL shuriken = 3.7
13.94 MEQ

Almost 4x the effective firepower plus you are closer to where the wraith guard are doing their damage when you inevitably get de-meched and nearer objectives potentially.

I'm assuming serpent shield as equipment doesn't count towards the two weapons fired by a fast moving vehicle.

Where are you getting you should stay back against a shooty army (SM) in a post where I have in the next paragraph advocated turbo boosting into a gunline?

Get close enough to flame them against SM. They will die in droves. Against ork, nid, or daemon hordes you may have needs to stay out of range so you can get rid of chaff that would waste your overwatches or you may simply be better off. The 24" comment is in response to the hive guard "threat".

I think you're missing the point that you're only shooting the serpents at 1/4 capacity if you stay back against ANY army. That's not including the wasted wraith guard shooting too. The MEQ related stats are for illustration purposes as they are generally the yard stick for calculating shooting effectiveness, I'm not talking about a specific match up vs SM.

In principle I don't disagree that you would need to play conservatively against some lists and hang back for a turn or two. My point is you're not going to actually do much damage to anyone at 60 inches.

Against wraith guard you can likely hang at 36 inch range as theireffective threat range is 30 inch. That will more than double your firepower output.