Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Red Viper wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Units I'm considering: Fuegan, Wraithknight, More Spiritseers, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks (Ignores-Cover Pie-plate and Haywire support), Shining Spears (counter-assault).

Opinions? The problem with Scytheserpent is that it's quite expensive, clocking in at 345 per combo. This makes me want to maximise their threat by taking as many of them as I can fit (just one or two can be handled, four-five becomes unmanageable). This is the dichotomy between TAC and Spam-lists; TAC opens your options up, but conversely narrows your ability to hard-counter.

Any reason you aren't considering Wraithlords? They got a little pricier, but are solid all-arounders. Two weapons no longer twin-link, so it opens up a lot of options. The sword is cheap and doesn't take up a ranged weapon now. Give it two heavy guns, 2 flamers, and a sword, and I think it's a nice support piece. Plus, it may take some heat off your Serpents. Yeah, they are slower.. but it will give you a threat on the table from turn 1 onwards.

I really don't like models which only move 6" a turn, too easy to kite. They're good in a foot based list as they anchor, but this list is mobile and aggressive so it will need a Wraithknight.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Deathmarks with despairteks make you sad.
My necron build would not fear that list at all. It would not be easy, but I am confident I could deal with the small number of models.

Eh, so you Deepstrike next to me and do a lot of 2+ to wound. I get my armour saves, and you're in a lovely b2b circle for me to roast. Not to mention, how are you going to down the WS in the first place?

djn wrote:Points sink I think. A balanced tau gun line eg. a more optimised version of the list in the report below, with less points sunk into the two missilesides units and more marker sources to strip cover.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/530959.page

In fact if you're within 30 inches of my 1500 point tau/eldar gun line I could definitely take out 3 hulls on paper...probably have a chance at 4 at 24 inches.

I think if you're spamming serpents you need more hulls, 5/6+ @ 1500 and 6/7+@ 1850, guided/prescienced prisms for TAC flexibility.

You can fill with cheaper min aspects and play the range game against some armies. Scorpions with I6 fists as counter assault? I still don't think it will set the world on fire though. Anything reliant on cover to survive in a meta where Tau are king isn't going fair well imo.

Tau aren't king. Necrons are king. Tau are mid-tier because of their utter inability to contest or hold, and have weak mobility without allies. Tomb King's list was constructed with Drone Controllers giving their BS to missile drones, which doesn't actually work. The Broadsides will get a turn of shooting before getting roasted. Whether the WS die is irrelevant, because you're certainly not going to kill more than one in the first turn.

Deshkar wrote:I like the idea of a wraith/serpent core supported by fire prisms . this needs to be explored further.

Prisms are very nice for 125 points. This army doesn't lack firepower though, it lacks counter-assault and anti tank. Granted the Str9 shot is strong, but the Str 10 D-cannon shot is stronger.

Valek wrote:tbh, nids can counter this to, enough shots from the monstrous creatures, you have no coversave against Hiveguards, and they can easely charge those flamer dudes with gribbles and then get a biggy in, even an iron armed t8 dude they will be unable to wound.

Hiveguards. The most i've ever seen are four on a table, and they're BS3 24" Str 8. Not a threat. It'll take about 8 shots to put a two glanceson my WS. D-weapons insta-death regardless of Toughness, or used to. Do you really still think masses of Gants will last very long against 5 flamers? I can just walk my flamers across the table and they'll still chew through whatever Tyranid ground forces you can throw at them.

akaean wrote:Eh, I wouldn't be too worried about Hive Guard. Remember just how much good strength Dakka Wave Serpents are packing, and the fact that Hive Guard are their main predators. Then you consider that Wave Serpents can open with a Salvo at 36 inches which is comfortably outside of Hive Guard's move and shoot range.

a tl Scatter Laser Wave Serpent is putting out 4 s6 shots, and 2-7 s7 shots, all twin linked at BS4. All of this operating well outside the range of the Hive Guard. A good eldar player excercizing good judgement and target priority should not be losing to Hive Guard, since he can drown them in a torrent of fire before they get a chance to fire at any juicy targets.

This. The odds are vastly in the Waves Serpents favour.

Inigo Montoya wrote:You have to see hive guard to shoot. They do not have to see you. A good 'nid player will exploit this advantage by funnelling you into range of the hidden guard. This build is great against lot of armies, but there are a few that just aren't scared by it.

Nids had better be, because they have little to no counters against it.

MarkyMark wrote:Tested a similar list out on Vassal, first time in ages using a mech list so a few mistakes made he had a helldrake which really hurts this army!. Lost on secondaries as he went second and contested my only objective with his LoC didnt dare assault them though!. I wiped out all his scoring units, the serpent shield shooting attack is horribly good really!, with TL scatter and shurikan cannon it was a lot of shots.

It has potential I think.

Interesting, what was he playing?

anonymou5 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


No, it doesn't work like that. Turn one charges are extremely risky. If they're going second and scout, I can get the drop on them by moving up 6", disembarking 9" and flaming them before they can get Grimoire off. Even if they charge on the first turn it would probably be quite difficult to get all 10 hounds into attack range, and even then we're looking at 6's to glance. In any case I would probably deploy roughly 22" from them to bait the charge. Will require a little luck, but 5d3 hits is sure to kill at least the first or second charger, and that's crippling. I play a scout assault army, I know how it works.

Turn 1 Charges are risky. No denying that, I was simply describing how it can happen. If going second I either hide my Hounds, or (depending on match up and whatever other MTO units I'm running), leave them in the open to take all the fire (as far forward as scout move can take them), usually 40 wounds with a 5++ is safe from first blood, and still a decent annoyance unit afterwards.

Hounds have furious charge, it's 5s to glance. I did the math...4.5 Hounds will kill a WS, or 6.75 Hounds if multi assaulting (without accounting for explosions. 4.5 hounds x3 attacks x 2/3 hits x 1/3 HP = 2.94 HP. 6.75 Hounds x 2 attacks x 2/3 hits x 1/3 HP = 2.94 HP). That's not taking into account prescience, which is easy enough to get in a FMC list. (or rage or hatred, which a herald can bring). So, it's not unrealistic to say a full hound pack can remove at least one WS early game, if not multiples (and they can probably still killl one if they get shot to death before the Grimoire goes off really). Again, not a hard counter, but a good way to get WG on the ground and force them to walk (and eat vector strikes or whatever else. As my current tourney list has Hounds, FMCs and Heavy Artillery Carriages in it, I think I'll sacrifice some Hounds to open up barrage victims)

Ah forgot the Furious Charge. The problem is charging vehicles you may not get all into b2b, so getting 5 dogs to attack on Turn 2 is an iffy prospect. Not to mention you don't get to consolidate, meaning the Beast units are nicely clumped up for a Khorne-dog barbeque. Flamers hard counter most assault units, don't forget.

djn wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You are correct about the helldrakes. The interesting thing is if anyone is foolish enough to sink all their points in drakes/flyers you can flatout into their deployment zone and get behind their flyers before they come on. I think the SL version is much better to give you a way to deal with flyers.

I am actually liking this list more and more as I think about it.

When I first saw the new codex I was thinking something similar but with 1-2 of the scythe units getting cannons instead and the WS having SL/SC. This makes prescience useful and a cannon squad w/ prescience can be brutal against a flyer or FMC. The problem with the scythes is that prescience does nothing for them and if you switch to SL you lack anti AV13+.

As for all these arguements of a turn 2 charge and 24" range guns killing all the WS why in the world would this list deploy that close to the line against any such list? This list has 5 WS with 60" weapons and can fire to full effect moving 12" a turn. If this list deploys at the back line they can just turboboost across the board to your deployment zone if you manage to swamp their deployment zone. These are skimmers so they can go right over your troops.

They can also turbo boost for a 12+18" movement+boost on turn 1 if you can completely out shoot them. Without using the shields you may be able to strip the full points from the WS but the wraithguard will walk out of the ruins and flame your gunline then charge you. They are better in CC than basic SM by a fair margin so the majority of shooty enemies will find themselves utterly out classed in <12" ranges.

If you sit on your board edge with over a 1000 points of short ranged wraith guard plinking out on average 20 S7 shots killing 3.7 marines a turn and giving up board control I think you'll have a bad time. You really need to maximise your shooting which is accomplished by getting into the (admittedly more dangerous) sweet spot of 24 inch shuriken cannon range for another 35 S6 shots (assuming scatters too) plus twin linking. I bet those numbers look more impressive...

TL Scatters x5 = 4.94
TL serpent shield = 4.94
TL shuriken = 3.7
13.94 MEQ

Almost 4x the effective firepower plus you are closer to where the wraith guard are doing their damage when you inevitably get de-meched and nearer objectives potentially.

I'm assuming serpent shield as equipment doesn't count towards the two weapons fired by a fast moving vehicle.

No, but you lose the shield when you shoot it, meaning you can get pen'd. It'll be a fine balance between shooting the shield and soaking damage. In any case the WS are mostly disposable battle-buses, I don't really care that much about them surviving as long as one does for the last turn drop.

@djn
Problem is that SM are a terrible yard stick for all the armies you would ever consider staying back against. You would also want to at least come within the 36" range against nearly all the enemies I can think of.

A meaningful "xenos" yard stick is T4/T3 Sv5+ or Sv4+.

These break down to 6 wounds with either 4 or 3 going unsaved. ~4 of these shots ignore cover. This can certainly be worthwhile to clear away chaff that would eat your overwatch. However I do agree that this is not always the best option though I think that actually speaks to the flexibility of the list as this is not bad damage for essentially a short range list.

Here's something cheeky:

Eldar with Dark Angels Allies

Spritseer 70

5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent with Scatter-Laser, Shuriken Cannon 130pts

5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent with Scatter-Laser, Shuriken Cannon 130pts

5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent with Scatter-Laser, Shuriken Cannon 130pts

5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent with Scatter-Laser, Shuriken Cannon 130pts

Librarian, Bike, Power Field Generator 105

3 Command Squad, Grenade Launcher 120

Scouts 60

3 Black Knights, Grenade Launcher 126

Black Knights provide counter-assault and T reduction, which is hugely helpful with the flamers. Librarian provides 4++ for all the WS.

Hiveguards. The most i've ever seen are four on a table, and they're BS3 24" Str 8. Not a threat. It'll take about 8 shots to put a two glanceson my WS. D-weapons insta-death regardless of Toughness, or used to. Do you really still think masses of Gants will last very long against 5 flamers? I can just walk my flamers across the table and they'll still chew through whatever Tyranid ground forces you can throw at them.

Hiveguard are BS4 and I've seen 6 to 8 recently. My experience is that they are overrated, this happened both to my mech Eldar (5th ed) and my Necrons (6th ed). If you need to get in for the killing blow, do it. For me, it has always worked.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

djn wrote:Points sink I think. A balanced tau gun line eg. a more optimised version of the list in the report below, with less points sunk into the two missilesides units and more marker sources to strip cover.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/530959.page

In fact if you're within 30 inches of my 1500 point tau/eldar gun line I could definitely take out 3 hulls on paper...probably have a chance at 4 at 24 inches.

I think if you're spamming serpents you need more hulls, 5/6+ @ 1500 and 6/7+@ 1850, guided/prescienced prisms for TAC flexibility.

You can fill with cheaper min aspects and play the range game against some armies. Scorpions with I6 fists as counter assault? I still don't think it will set the world on fire though. Anything reliant on cover to survive in a meta where Tau are king isn't going fair well imo.

Tau aren't king. Necrons are king. Tau are mid-tier because of their utter inability to contest or hold, and have weak mobility without allies. Tomb King's list was constructed with Drone Controllers giving their BS to missile drones, which doesn't actually work. The Broadsides will get a turn of shooting before getting roasted. Whether the WS die is irrelevant, because you're certainly not going to kill more than one in the first turn.

Well have to agree to disagree as to who has the crown, Necrons are on the wane IMO. Time will tell as GT results come in.

Agree regarding allies. Tau can get some very cheap very mobile contesting, two lots of twin linkage plus nerfed psychic defence for one unit with a bike seer plus two min bike squads.

Not TK's exact list but one similar built around two bubble wrapped missileside squads I think would wreck wraith serpents.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

djn wrote:

If you sit on your board edge with over a 1000 points of short ranged wraith guard plinking out on average 20 S7 shots killing 3.7 marines a turn and giving up board control I think you'll have a bad time. You really need to maximise your shooting which is accomplished by getting into the (admittedly more dangerous) sweet spot of 24 inch shuriken cannon range for another 35 S6 shots (assuming scatters too) plus twin linking. I bet those numbers look more impressive...

TL Scatters x5 = 4.94
TL serpent shield = 4.94
TL shuriken = 3.7
13.94 MEQ

Almost 4x the effective firepower plus you are closer to where the wraith guard are doing their damage when you inevitably get de-meched and nearer objectives potentially.

I'm assuming serpent shield as equipment doesn't count towards the two weapons fired by a fast moving vehicle.

No, but you lose the shield when you shoot it, meaning you can get pen'd. It'll be a fine balance between shooting the shield and soaking damage. In any case the WS are mostly disposable battle-buses, I don't really care that much about them surviving as long as one does for the last turn drop.

4/5 serpents will go down at that points level IMO. Your tough expensive slow troops will be fighting through expendable bubble wrap whilst being hammered by the missilesides and other elite shooting.

The list is just to onesided and a lot of hardcounters exist for it, only is the question, how many can the opponent pack, and has the list enough body to claim objectives and keep them, granted T6 troops with flamers of doom to have a good chance, but so has massed S6-7 fire to down them.

I dont think full wraithspam is needed, 2 or 3 of those wraithserpetns added with some more tactical choises will be a contender.

You are overestimating the ability of flamer overwatch to deter assault. The average 10 hits will kill only a single flesh hound or 4 seekers. That isn't enough given the lackluster close combat ability of the wraithguard.

Deathmarks only kill a couple, but 2 despairteks in the squad finish them off. 5 deathmarks and 2 despaiirteks will kill 5 wraithguard.

How do you open the wave serpent? Well, I have a few guns of my own, and if you actually want to win a game, you have to come to my side of the board (and eventually disembark to claim an objective.)

All of this is supposition, though. You have nothing but guesses and what-ifs for eldar, and I have been playing crons competitively for a good while - i know what the death and despair squad will kill.

I like the Nightwing models, so I'd just bring two of those to bolster the list with maybe a squad of Warp Spiders. Warp Spiders are very hard to counter without accurate deepstrike or Barrage. They are VERY fast and able to LoS you as good as if not better than Tau.

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
Deathmarks only kill a couple, but 2 despairteks in the squad finish them off. 5 deathmarks and 2 despaiirteks will kill 5 wraithguard.

How do you open the wave serpent? Well, I have a few guns of my own, and if you actually want to win a game, you have to come to my side of the board (and eventually disembark to claim an objective.)

All of this is supposition, though. You have nothing but guesses and what-ifs for eldar, and I have been playing crons competitively for a good while - i know what the death and despair squad will kill.

Seems like a rather silly comment.

The Eldar are new so you don't know what you can do, but I know what I can do to them without knowing what they are capable of!

Don't have to come to your side of the board to win every game, depends on the mission parameters and if he can get First Strike.

I know what I can do to wraithguard. It is not rocket science. I know exactly how my army works and I know how to deal with elusive targets, hard targets, fast vehicles, units in cover... ...there are no new mechanics involved here, so while you have no clue as to how the eldar will actually work, I know exactly how how I deal with specific threats with my army. You present 5 mid to high toughness models in a skimmer, and I know what I need to do to eliminate the threat.

Eldar are going to be good, but no one has a clue how good or what is going to work well. I absolutely know what works well against the fundamental strengths of eldar!

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
I know what I can do to wraithguard. It is not rocket science. I know exactly how my army works and I know how to deal with elusive targets, hard targets, fast vehicles, units in cover... ...there are no new mechanics involved here, so while you have no clue as to how the eldar will actually work, I know exactly how how I deal with specific threats with my army. You present 5 mid to high toughness models in a skimmer, and I know what I need to do to eliminate the threat.

Eldar are going to be good, but no one has a clue how good or what is going to work well. I absolutely know what works well against the fundamental strengths of eldar!

Well it's not rocket science either, I disembark from my fast skimmer which you have no way of preventing and then roast your footslogging despairteks and deathmarks with five flamer templates from my WG, Rinse, repeat. Abyssal staffs wound Wraithguard on a 6 (Str8 vs LD10). What sort of ranged Ignores Cover weaponry do you have to kill WS from across the board? None whatsoever.

Post your list up instead of hyperbolic Necron arguments. Not a single top tier Necron finisher in any recent GT has run D&D, so I have doubts to their actual utility. I still get cover saves against Despairtek weapons.

They are not footslogging, they are in a scythe. Really? Footslogging.
Abyssal staves in a deathmark squad wound wraithguard on a 2. Yes. 2 S8 AP1 templates wounding on a 2. No cover saves allowed from template weapons. Plus 10 sniper shots wounding on 2 and rending on 6s.

Opening a serpent with mass S7 is not that hard. They beam out of the scythe with no scatter and wipe the squad. I run 2 of those squads, so that should eliminate half of the scoring wraithguard units there. I then have the rest of my army to figure out how to kill 2 more. Pretty doable, don't you think?

You are validating the point I was making: I know how to deal with any given threat with my list - I have played it literally dozens of times against solid opponents in many tournaments. You haven't tried to use the prospective list at all. It is clear as to how it has to be dealt with, and my list has the tools to deal with it. You, however, have no idea how to use it to beat the necrons - you don't even know how the necrons work!

Enough what -ifs, though. We have at least 3 eldar players locally, so I will be playtesting against them soon enough. I highly doubt any of them will run this "all of your eggs in one basket" build, though. Too risky.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Red Viper wrote:

Hiveguards. The most i've ever seen are four on a table, and they're BS3 24" Str 8. Not a threat. It'll take about 8 shots to put a two glanceson my WS. D-weapons insta-death regardless of Toughness, or used to. Do you really still think masses of Gants will last very long against 5 flamers? I can just walk my flamers across the table and they'll still chew through whatever Tyranid ground forces you can throw at them.

So you don't know the profile of a WG before posting, then you misunderstand your opponents and disregard them?

Sorry but that list is no better then any Mechdar list in the past, they buzz around trying to be resilient all game then grab objectives late game. They weren't great in 5th and definitely aren't in 6th. Two major problems:

1. All mech are much worse in 6th, even WS are MUCH easier to kill then they were in 5th

2.You need to deploy in order to score or deny unlike 5th.

In a variable game length you need to disembark turn 5 to score or deny objectives, in order to due this, like ALL transports, you can only move 6 first before getting out.

This list is durable but not even remotely competitive IMO.