Gangrel767 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
The inability to cast 2 of the same power pretty much negates his additional warp charges (he will often cast all his powers and still have more charges).

He is an extremely safe caster as those "extra" warp charges can be used to power his ghosthelm.

 Kirasu wrote:
The problem is there is no reason to have a fair trade when creating unit rules. Every unit should be decent, and making guardians better yet making dire avengers worse doesn't make a lot of sense in a game governed by points and FOC restrictions. Taking an ability away from one unit and buffing another unit ONLY makes sense if the units interact together to produce more powerful combos such as old seer council + farseer with fortune. Spamming the same unit is the main threat to balance.

They could have buffed guardians AND kept dire avengers the same since they generally perform different battle field roles due to range/type of weapons. Yet, they made dire avengers worse and regulated them to relative obscurity due to Jetbikes being buffed by a huge degree. Armies are rarely overpowered because all of their units are thoughtfully designed to be GOOD because again, we are restricted by points and the FOC. The most egregious balance issues are a result of 1 or 2 overpowered units that are taken in triplicate.

I think that many people just aren't seeing the addition of counterattack as something that is pretty awesome for our dire avengers. Not to mention plasma grenades. Now, I'm not disputing that GJB are incredible and guardians certainly got a boost, but the dire avengers have the ability to hold objective points instead of jumping out there and glass cannoning yourself to death. They're like mini Grey Hunters in our codex. I honestly think that in Footdar armies dire avengers could be the key to holding that midrange anti infantry, M/C firepower. You can rush forward with your guardians who are there to throw down tons of shuriken fire and die, then follow up with the dire avengers which progressively get tougher to destroy.

I know they aren't "jump off the page awesome" like the jetbikes, but I feel like they could have a tactical role. I haven't used them yet, so I'm just trying to gleen their benefits and find a theoretical position for them. I don't want to write off any of our units yet. It's way too early for that.

Powerguy wrote:
The biggest issue with the previous codex was that its infantry, particularly its scoring infantry, were way too fragile. This hasn't really changed and is still the biggest weakness of the codex. Both Avengers and Guardians got more expensive, and Jetbikes still die horribly to Heldrakes. In fact the entire army still dies horribly to Heldrakes, which is why I am on the fence about whether it will be top tier. It absolutely crushes Nids and should do fine against Wraithwing as it can deal with 2 out of 3 elements (torrent to deal with the Wraiths, long range high S weapons to pop the barges). The real test for me will be whether it can deal with Fleshhound spam/Nurgle Spawn spam, as the fast assault makes the combination of short range burst + JSJ much less reliable.

 Kain wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
The biggest issue with the previous codex was that its infantry, particularly its scoring infantry, were way too fragile. This hasn't really changed and is still the biggest weakness of the codex. Both Avengers and Guardians got more expensive, and Jetbikes still die horribly to Heldrakes. In fact the entire army still dies horribly to Heldrakes, which is why I am on the fence about whether it will be top tier. It absolutely crushes Nids and should do fine against Wraithwing as it can deal with 2 out of 3 elements (torrent to deal with the Wraiths, long range high S weapons to pop the barges). The real test for me will be whether it can deal with Fleshhound spam/Nurgle Spawn spam, as the fast assault makes the combination of short range burst + JSJ much less reliable.

Soon we will have our revenge. For one day we too shall have a 7th edition WHFB daemons of chaos level broken book.

I'll be ready to drink your tears then.

 ansacs wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
The biggest issue with the previous codex was that its infantry, particularly its scoring infantry, were way too fragile. This hasn't really changed and is still the biggest weakness of the codex. Both Avengers and Guardians got more expensive, and Jetbikes still die horribly to Heldrakes. In fact the entire army still dies horribly to Heldrakes, which is why I am on the fence about whether it will be top tier. It absolutely crushes Nids and should do fine against Wraithwing as it can deal with 2 out of 3 elements (torrent to deal with the Wraiths, long range high S weapons to pop the barges). The real test for me will be whether it can deal with Fleshhound spam/Nurgle Spawn spam, as the fast assault makes the combination of short range burst + JSJ much less reliable.

Soon we will have our revenge. For one day we too shall have a 7th edition WHFB daemons of chaos level broken book.

I'll be ready to drink your tears then.

Been there done that. Get yourself a copy of the 3.5 edition codex: Craftworld Eldar. It had some of the coolest units and forces you could field but some of the options were just broken beyond reason.

Powerguy wrote:
@DarthDiggler. That is why you give Jetbikes Cannons, so you can JSJ from the 24" range bracket. Against the vast majority of units you are pretty safe getting inside 12" (again you want the Cannons here so you can extend the kill zone) and then jumping back out, since at worst you are going to end up 8" away, which is a reasonable charge at the best of times. On average you leave them 19" away, which isn't even a theoretical charge. However as you mention the issues arise against fast assault units moving 12" per turn, since you are basically just taking your 2D6 against their 2D6. Fortunately BS4 Cannons are still pretty punchy, so you can JSJ from the 24" bracket for a couple of turns before you commit to the 12" burst (usually because you run out of board space). Its also lets you completely jump out of range of bolters and the huge number of other 24" range weapons (common on GKs, Necrons etc).

 ansacs wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
The biggest issue with the previous codex was that its infantry, particularly its scoring infantry, were way too fragile. This hasn't really changed and is still the biggest weakness of the codex. Both Avengers and Guardians got more expensive, and Jetbikes still die horribly to Heldrakes. In fact the entire army still dies horribly to Heldrakes, which is why I am on the fence about whether it will be top tier. It absolutely crushes Nids and should do fine against Wraithwing as it can deal with 2 out of 3 elements (torrent to deal with the Wraiths, long range high S weapons to pop the barges). The real test for me will be whether it can deal with Fleshhound spam/Nurgle Spawn spam, as the fast assault makes the combination of short range burst + JSJ much less reliable.

Soon we will have our revenge. For one day we too shall have a 7th edition WHFB daemons of chaos level broken book.

I'll be ready to drink your tears then.

Been there done that. Get yourself a copy of the 3.5 edition codex: Craftworld Eldar. It had some of the coolest units and forces you could field but some of the options were just broken beyond reason.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

I think that many people just aren't seeing the addition of counterattack as something that is pretty awesome for our dire avengers. Not to mention plasma grenades. Now, I'm not disputing that GJB are incredible and guardians certainly got a boost, but the dire avengers have the ability to hold objective points instead of jumping out there and glass cannoning yourself to death. They're like mini Grey Hunters in our codex. I honestly think that in Footdar armies dire avengers could be the key to holding that midrange anti infantry, M/C firepower. You can rush forward with your guardians who are there to throw down tons of shuriken fire and die, then follow up with the dire avengers which progressively get tougher to destroy.

I know they aren't "jump off the page awesome" like the jetbikes, but I feel like they could have a tactical role. I haven't used them yet, so I'm just trying to gleen their benefits and find a theoretical position for them. I don't want to write off any of our units yet. It's way too early for that.

 Farseer_Kaiser wrote:
At ~12" they actually outshoot Firewarriors!

 shamikebab wrote:
I think the only problem with DA is the price. Adding a Wave Serpent makes them damn expensive and I'm not sure if they can really footslog? I think quite a few units suffer from our very expensive transports.