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... So read the book, played a couple of games, and i think eldar are some what broken

We're BS 4 ... ok.

Most of our units have got cheaper ... really?

You can run and shoot (or vice versa) ... well that give us our speed back i guess.

Shuriken weapons effectively have rending vs people. I can't help think this is a little wrong. I know dark eldar get poison weapons but that lets you get a save. Terminators die enough to mass small arms fire without this madness ... Oh and combines with the other broken rule ....

Scatter Lasers, You fire it first, you get 4 shots, any hit (98.8% chance of one hitting by the way) everything else is TL ... Is that not slightly over powered may be you want to give us a cover save on our war warwalkers ... we can buy that? and they come with a 5++, and only 5pts more ... r

... I'm going to stop here ... Ok some of our units got weaker or more expensive... makes sense but in the scheme of things i can't help thinking there's no down side ... ok we loose some kick ass psyker tools, i'm willing to make that trade ...

I can see what we've lost but only barely over mountain that we've gained. I'm say this as a long time eldar fan boy, we're take the piss with this codex. So Dakka whats your thoughts?

Overall, they've gotten better. They might have lost a couple of goodies but what they got back is so much more. Same with Tau, who lost S10 railguns but are dominating right now even without them.

If so, it would be the 1st one of 6th

You lost reliable fortune. Which as actually pretty huge. The resiliency boost from casting fortune twice thanks to Eldrad is now gone. So is RoW.

So, you lost some resiliency, but gained speed and power. Any decent general should be able to work with that.

Overall, you're looking a lot better than before.

It's just the effect of using a new dex against old armies man. Give the meta a few months to adjust and we're back to normal

Hahahahaha I lol'd at this post.

You're not broken, not yet anyway. You still have some frail units, and your army requires synergy to work together. That being said, I'd say that the Eldar have a true 6th ed codex now, and from what I've read of it and heard it's about average.

We aren't broken in the slightest. We are just balanced and able to compete in 6th ed now. It may SEEM we are broken because of what we are used to, but in no way is that true. That is until I find out how to make a WK scarier than its cousin (WL).

The biggest issue with the previous codex was that its infantry, particularly its scoring infantry, were way too fragile. This hasn't really changed and is still the biggest weakness of the codex. Both Avengers and Guardians got more expensive, and Jetbikes still die horribly to Heldrakes. In fact the entire army still dies horribly to Heldrakes, which is why I am on the fence about whether it will be top tier. It absolutely crushes Nids and should do fine against Wraithwing as it can deal with 2 out of 3 elements (torrent to deal with the Wraiths, long range high S weapons to pop the barges). The real test for me will be whether it can deal with Fleshhound spam/Nurgle Spawn spam, as the fast assault makes the combination of short range burst + JSJ much less reliable.

Powerguy wrote:
The biggest issue with the previous codex was that its infantry, particularly its scoring infantry, were way too fragile. This hasn't really changed and is still the biggest weakness of the codex. Both Avengers and Guardians got more expensive, and Jetbikes still die horribly to Heldrakes. In fact the entire army still dies horribly to Heldrakes, which is why I am on the fence about whether it will be top tier. It absolutely crushes Nids and should do fine against Wraithwing as it can deal with 2 out of 3 elements (torrent to deal with the Wraiths, long range high S weapons to pop the barges). The real test for me will be whether it can deal with Fleshhound spam/Nurgle Spawn spam, as the fast assault makes the combination of short range burst + JSJ much less reliable.

If there is spam, BS 4 scatter walkers are there. If not then Warp Spiders are there. If not then all of the hell of shuriken weapons are there. if not then Fire Prisms. If not then you need to learn how to make a competitive list.

It seems to me GW didnt factor in the huge loss of resiliency in our key units when we lost fortune. Our costs went down in some places, yes, but our dependable units didnt see many changes for the better to compensate the loss of fortune.

Harlequins went from our most dependable unit to the least dependable that i can imagine. Not only do you need doom for offense, veil on ld9 for inability to shoot, but also fortune for overwatch

However you have a 95% chance to get fortune 4 rolls with eldrad. The inability to cast 2 of the same power pretty much negates his additional warp charges (he will often cast all his powers and still have more charges).

Overall im seeing a shift away from deathstars and expensive units for eldar and into MSU. If you have 20 units on the board, your opponent will be hard pressed to do enough damage to your army to stop you from returning the favor. KP you suffer, but thats only 1/6 o the missions. I think WS w wraithguard is a trap that will get many new players into the idea that eldar can "tank" the damage and return it out. They cant. It may work vs less experienced players, but many tourney lists will hard counter that out pretty easily.

FW Corsairs seem to compliment this list well and i plan on running them as allies whenever i can. Still have to get a game in to test out some of the "maybe" units, but we will see how that works.

How about when it is clear you can make a list with wraith guard as troops and stick them all in waves serpents. Hello resilient, fast troops!!!!
I predict the 6 x 5 wg in prisms list because an effective 2000 point list.

Not broken at all. You're just used to a POS codex.

Powerguy wrote:
The biggest issue with the previous codex was that its infantry, particularly its scoring infantry, were way too fragile. This hasn't really changed and is still the biggest weakness of the codex. Both Avengers and Guardians got more expensive, and Jetbikes still die horribly to Heldrakes. In fact the entire army still dies horribly to Heldrakes, which is why I am on the fence about whether it will be top tier. It absolutely crushes Nids and should do fine against Wraithwing as it can deal with 2 out of 3 elements (torrent to deal with the Wraiths, long range high S weapons to pop the barges). The real test for me will be whether it can deal with Fleshhound spam/Nurgle Spawn spam, as the fast assault makes the combination of short range burst + JSJ much less reliable.

No Eldar are not broken. This argument proves Heldrakes are broken.

RancidHate wrote:

No Eldar are not broken. This argument proves Heldrakes are broken.

Helldrakes are not broken, they just didn't have a counter until this new Codex. Eldar now have the best anti-helldrake unit available, the Crimson Hunter. 4 Str8 Ap2 Lance shots, re-rolling pens, and in the hands of a skilled player, can avoid being Vector Strike'd all game long.

RancidHate wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
The biggest issue with the previous codex was that its infantry, particularly its scoring infantry, were way too fragile. This hasn't really changed and is still the biggest weakness of the codex. Both Avengers and Guardians got more expensive, and Jetbikes still die horribly to Heldrakes. In fact the entire army still dies horribly to Heldrakes, which is why I am on the fence about whether it will be top tier. It absolutely crushes Nids and should do fine against Wraithwing as it can deal with 2 out of 3 elements (torrent to deal with the Wraiths, long range high S weapons to pop the barges). The real test for me will be whether it can deal with Fleshhound spam/Nurgle Spawn spam, as the fast assault makes the combination of short range burst + JSJ much less reliable.

No Eldar are not broken. This argument proves Heldrakes are broken.

Not really, they are terrible against horde lists. In my local meta 3 x Nurgle Spawn is much more popular than Drakes, because several of our top players brought lists with heaps of cheap infantry to several tournaments and rapidly demostrated that they can reliably beat Drakes. Basically Heldrakes are such a nightmare for most armies because they don't have access to cheap troops, they just hurt Marines/MEQ armies badly and they happen to be the most common armies, hence the complaining.

@zephoid. Why do they need Doom for offense any more than they used to, they still have Rending and WS5? They used to have this form of Veil and they were still perfectly viable, you are more durable against long range shooting (i.e you can't be shot at all). All you have to do is add a Spiritseer into the unit and they are twice as good as they were, you have to roll to see them and they still get 3+ cover while moving through terrain (or S5 if you roll it). You should also be charging through terrain with them most of the time to overwatch shouldn't hurt too much, and Veil will definitely help against Tau (who are the ones who hurt the most on overwatch) since Supporting Fire units are usually further away. Yes having to cast Veil every turn sucks, but they certainly aren't even close to being a bad unit.

@GTKA666. Not saying that its impossible for Eldar to deal with fast assault lists like that, I'm just saying they seem like they will be one of their harder matchups. Eldar will absolutely destroy slow assault lists (i.e anything moving 6" per turn) as they can kite them and shoot them to death without even being touched. Scatter Walkers aren't going to drop 40 Flesh Hounds by themselves even if you took 9 of them and nerfed your army by removing all your sources of long ranged anti tank. Spiders/Bikes etc have great burst, but that is only 12" range. Even with the 2 or 3D6 jump back you are taking a chance, a bad roll and the unit is toast (rather than leaving your opponent with at least a 9" charge). Prisms do literally nothing to Spawn, and aren't going to do much to Flesh Hounds either.

I havent played against that unit yet, but are they like orks? if so then my descrption still stands. If not then shoot over their T value and movement and I will help you out.

36A, 25H, only 4 rend (shadowseer denies challenge). Against terminators or such, thats only 3 dead or less, maybe 1 more from regular wounds. Thats assuming no casualties from fire or overwatch. That is insufficent for a 5++ save T3 unit. Doom was required to go through 10 man squads of marines/terminators effectively or against MCs, which were the main targets for harlequins.

Veil is now a psychic power on ld9. That never was the case before. Now they have the worse incarnation of veil, and still have to cast for it. Plus then chancing perils with your 1 wound psyker that is the only defensive thing the whole squad has.....

HQ slots are already in tough competition. Spiritseers are probably not going to see play between autarchs, farseers, and PL.

to the OP, give it six months for everyone to punch holes in the new codex... just like every other rwlease...

EVERY codex (with the possible exception of the crapfest that is 5th ed. Nids) immediately gets called either cheese or trash by players for the first few days of release. Ask this question again in a month and/or after the next FAQ and we'll all be in a better position to answer it...

 Tri wrote:
... So read the book, played a couple of games, and i think eldar are some what broken

We're BS 4 ... ok.

Most of our units have got cheaper ... really?

You can run and shoot (or vice versa) ... well that give us our speed back i guess.

Shuriken weapons effectively have rending vs people. I can't help think this is a little wrong. I know dark eldar get poison weapons but that lets you get a save. Terminators die enough to mass small arms fire without this madness ... Oh and combines with the other broken rule ....

Scatter Lasers, You fire it first, you get 4 shots, any hit (98.8% chance of one hitting by the way) everything else is TL ... Is that not slightly over powered may be you want to give us a cover save on our war warwalkers ... we can buy that? and they come with a 5++, and only 5pts more ... r

... I'm going to stop here ... Ok some of our units got weaker or more expensive... makes sense but in the scheme of things i can't help thinking there's no down side ... ok we loose some kick ass psyker tools, i'm willing to make that trade ...

I can see what we've lost but only barely over mountain that we've gained. I'm say this as a long time eldar fan boy, we're take the piss with this codex. So Dakka whats your thoughts?

Some things got better, much better. But is it enough?

Well, in the previous edition I used to run a Seer Council that usually made the difference when it became tough. The Council is still there with more goodies (Warlock powers) but eventually without fortune and more expensive. Compensating the old(!) Council by another unit is not going to work, this can only be done by increased synergy.
As it stands, I'll reconsider a mech Serpent force. The Serpents give protection to the units inside, have anti-air capability, and are rather resilient.

Serpents really feel like the only thing in the book that might qualify for OP.

Give a devilfish skyfire ability like that and I'd say the same about them, though, so *shrug*

Belly wrote:

RancidHate wrote:

No Eldar are not broken. This argument proves Heldrakes are broken.

Helldrakes are not broken, they just didn't have a counter until this new Codex. Eldar now have the best anti-helldrake unit available, the Crimson Hunter. 4 Str8 Ap2 Lance shots, re-rolling pens, and in the hands of a skilled player, can avoid being Vector Strike'd all game long.

And it can be shot down by any chump with a bolter. Heldrakes are CSM, that's quite a few bolters.

MarsNZ wrote:

Belly wrote:

RancidHate wrote:

No Eldar are not broken. This argument proves Heldrakes are broken.

Helldrakes are not broken, they just didn't have a counter until this new Codex. Eldar now have the best anti-helldrake unit available, the Crimson Hunter. 4 Str8 Ap2 Lance shots, re-rolling pens, and in the hands of a skilled player, can avoid being Vector Strike'd all game long.

And it can be shot down by any chump with a bolter. Heldrakes are CSM, that's quite a few bolters.

Assuming that the bolters aren't busy gunning down things that don't need a 6 to hit.

Eldar are top tier, now welcome to an adaptable meta.

Nids are happy. Runes of warding are gone, they can buff freely, and are an even match for eldar.

Same goes for GK.

D weapons mean CSM will abandon spawn for more hell turkeys.

Necrons now have even more reasons to field more wraiths. Eldar don't have an easy solution to wraiths, just volume of wounds. Also expect to see more storm teks. Double voltaic staff is one way to drop a serpent.

Eldar don't have an easy answer for a tfc, expect more in marinelists.

rune staffs have not been nerfed yet.

DE are happy to see heavy wraith guard lists.

The meta will adapt.

Imo Nids don't match up well against Eldar at all. The amount of quasi Rending in the codex should make Nid MCs very nervous. Unless they FAQ it badly Eldar aren't going to care if you are Iron Armed to T9 either. The only issues are the Flyrants, since you need 6's to hit them, but otherwise Eldar could easily drop 2-3 MCs a turn.

Grey Knights are also a pretty bad matchup imo, Psyriflemen have dropped off the radar somewhat which means most GK lists are very much focused on the 24" range band. Most list I see only have a couple of units with more than 30" reach (and its effectiveness drops off as soon as it moves), usually just scoring Razors (which aren't overly punchy) and Ravens (which are a pain but are nice targets for Crimson Hunters). A based on my limited testing so far a Jetbike based list will take GK's apart, the infantry just isn't going to hold together under that much Rending firepower which then jumps back out of range and doesn't even get hit.

That statement about volume of wounds being the ONLY answer Eldar have to Necron Wraiths makes no sense because volume of wounds IS the counter to Wraiths lol. They also have a bunch of ID weaponry (including the Nightspinner) which hurts the Wraiths rather badly, and the fact that half your firepower is Rending makes tanking with the D Lord much harder. With Bright Lances being cheaper, Prisms hitting harder and new stuff like the Wraithcannons I think Eldar can handle the Barges as well. The issue is the fliers, since even if you go 3 Crimson Hunters you still probably lose to a moderate Necron Airforce (its purely a question of numbers, both fliers probably one shot each other if they get to fire, but Crons usually have 3-4 fliers minimum).

Edit: Just been doing some Mathhammer which I might as well share. Obviously you have to time it right (or you just get eaten alive by Gaunts), but 9 Jetbikes and a Warlock do 5.66 wounds in a single round to shooting against a T6 3+ save model, so if you ground a Flyrant its going to get smoked and a Tervigon will be pretty easy to finish off. That doesn't factor in psychic powers (for either side) or cover, but its still a pretty impressive number imo and it only gets better against Marines.

Purely from a wounds vs cost perspective, Scatter Walkers look like our most efficient option for dealing with Necron Wraiths, followed by Spiders (although the Nightspinner is the clear leader if you manage 5 hits with its pie plate, since it ID them for only 115pts). Spiders have a slight edge over Walkers against Nurgle Spawn but it swaps back round again against Flesh Hounds. As I expected Jetbikes are pretty damn good though, at close range they are only slightly behind the Spiders (but have a 24" profile as well, and are scoring and slightly more mobile) except against Marines and Nid MCs, where they actually come out marginally on top. That was including the cost of the 50pt Warlock in the squad as well, who doesn't bring much offensively.

 Tri wrote:
Most of our units have got cheaper ... really?

You can run and shoot (or vice versa) ... well that give us our speed back i guess.

Shuriken weapons effectively have rending vs people.

I wanted to pick up on these points in particular:

Every 6th edition Codex so far has made its core squads cheaper. Substantially so, in the case of Daemons, though at the cost of putting some of their innate abilities with Heralds.
Foot Eldar needed some way of making speed back what with the changes to how Fleet works.
The Shuriken weapon change made Guardians better, but Dire Avengers got weaker losing the old Bladestorm rule as a result. Seems like a fair trade.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Tri wrote:
Most of our units have got cheaper ... really?

You can run and shoot (or vice versa) ... well that give us our speed back i guess.

Shuriken weapons effectively have rending vs people.

I wanted to pick up on these points in particular:

Every 6th edition Codex so far has made its core squads cheaper. Substantially so, in the case of Daemons, though at the cost of putting some of their innate abilities with Heralds.
Foot Eldar needed some way of making speed back what with the changes to how Fleet works.
The Shuriken weapon change made Guardians better, but Dire Avengers got weaker losing the old Bladestorm rule as a result. Seems like a fair trade.

The problem is there is no reason to have a fair trade when creating unit rules. Every unit should be decent, and making guardians better yet making dire avengers worse doesn't make a lot of sense in a game governed by points and FOC restrictions. Taking an ability away from one unit and buffing another unit ONLY makes sense if the units interact together to produce more powerful combos such as old seer council + farseer with fortune. Spamming the same unit is the main threat to balance.

They could have buffed guardians AND kept dire avengers the same since they generally perform different battle field roles due to range/type of weapons. Yet, they made dire avengers worse and regulated them to relative obscurity due to Jetbikes being buffed by a huge degree. Armies are rarely overpowered because all of their units are thoughtfully designed to be GOOD because again, we are restricted by points and the FOC. The most egregious balance issues are a result of 1 or 2 overpowered units that are taken in triplicate.

I

 zephoid wrote:
The inability to cast 2 of the same power pretty much negates his additional warp charges (he will often cast all his powers and still have more charges).

He is an extremely safe caster as those "extra" warp charges can be used to power his ghosthelm.

 Kirasu wrote:
The problem is there is no reason to have a fair trade when creating unit rules. Every unit should be decent, and making guardians better yet making dire avengers worse doesn't make a lot of sense in a game governed by points and FOC restrictions. Taking an ability away from one unit and buffing another unit ONLY makes sense if the units interact together to produce more powerful combos such as old seer council + farseer with fortune. Spamming the same unit is the main threat to balance.

They could have buffed guardians AND kept dire avengers the same since they generally perform different battle field roles due to range/type of weapons. Yet, they made dire avengers worse and regulated them to relative obscurity due to Jetbikes being buffed by a huge degree. Armies are rarely overpowered because all of their units are thoughtfully designed to be GOOD because again, we are restricted by points and the FOC. The most egregious balance issues are a result of 1 or 2 overpowered units that are taken in triplicate.

I think that many people just aren't seeing the addition of counterattack as something that is pretty awesome for our dire avengers. Not to mention plasma grenades. Now, I'm not disputing that GJB are incredible and guardians certainly got a boost, but the dire avengers have the ability to hold objective points instead of jumping out there and glass cannoning yourself to death. They're like mini Grey Hunters in our codex. I honestly think that in Footdar armies dire avengers could be the key to holding that midrange anti infantry, M/C firepower. You can rush forward with your guardians who are there to throw down tons of shuriken fire and die, then follow up with the dire avengers which progressively get tougher to destroy.

I know they aren't "jump off the page awesome" like the jetbikes, but I feel like they could have a tactical role. I haven't used them yet, so I'm just trying to gleen their benefits and find a theoretical position for them. I don't want to write off any of our units yet. It's way too early for that.

Hahahahahhahahah, no. Just no.

troll post...?