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Spawn aren't bad tank busters really. Lots of S5 attacks on the rear armor.

 Ailaros wrote:

mercer wrote:Using Abaddon with Rhino Chosen. Had 150 points spare

There are cooler things you could do with those points than just spawn, though.

I don't quite get the point of them, honestly. They can mangle light infantry, but practically everything else in the codex can do this already. I'd think that something a little heavier hitting would be more useful, whether a maulerfiend (which is fast, tough, and can seriously wreck harder targets), or 4x combi-plasma terminators (because ouch), or even just passing out a ton of destructor blades for everything and watch with glee as you do 4 or 5D6 S5 hits or so in a single turn without even needing to pile out of their rides to do it.

I think their main benefit is they are cheap for what they do. 30 points for a T5 W3 beast? Or perhaps 36 points for a T6 W3 beast? The benefit of these monsters is they are much smaller than something like a maulerfiend meaning they are easier to give cover or even entirely block the enemi's line of sight. On top of that they provide a better form of transport than rhinos for Juggerlords and can do relatively well carrying about a Nurgle Lord on bike as well. They lack any guns (like a maulerfiend) and they only have a WS of 3. To make up for this, they are hitting with S5 I3. Whilst this means they are slower than marines, the weapons that are most likely to wound them are in limited quantity and, for the most part, they will be hitting before the scary weapons (Unwieldy). With a d6 attacks. A single model can possibly get 7 attacks on the charge with approximately 3.5 of them successfully hitting. They get rage making them even more threatening on the charge and fearless means they can tarpit with ease. Finally, they get either an armour save of 3 (which for the most part is only passed by either slower-than-spawn weapons or power swords, the latter of which I haven't seen used as much honestly), a 2d6 roll to increase the odds of getting a higher roll of attacks, or they get poison 4+ meaning they can wound even MC and can re-roll failed to wounds usually. Personally I think it is namely due to these combinations that they are so popular.

The units you used in your argument also have vital uses. Maulerfiends are scary but they are built to be anti-vehicle, aren't so great in CC, and suffer from having a giagantic target sign over their head and you cannot hide them, nor can you hide a lord, within their ranks. Combi-plasma terminators are very efficient but personally I feel they fill a different roll just as Maulerfiends fill a different roll. And destroctor blades? Eeeeh.... If on a raider or something with a high av value sure but rhinos..... probably going to pop by the time they get to the enemy.

But maulerfiends are also very cheap, and they can actually kill stuff - stuff that your small-arms can't (and are IMMUNE to small arms fire).

Plus, Terminators can be T5 with a 2+ save for the same price, and the terminator armor seems rather more durable than W3 against most stuff. And terminators can deepstrike, and can take real close combat weapons like lightning claws and chainfists, and can take BS4 combi-weapons, which means they're likely doing more damage.

It's like, what niche do spawn really fill? They're a fast unit in a codex with several fast choices (bikes, raptors, dudes in land raiders, maulerfiends, huron infiltrating, etc.), and they're good against infantry in a codex with a baleflamer and a burning brand, and great terminators and cheap bolter dudes. I guess I can see the juggerlord delivery system, but even then... meh. I think I'd rather give the khorne lord terminator armor and use the points saved on spawn as a down-payment towards a land raider, or to mount him on a bike, and just take more bikes, etc.

Oh no worries. Personally I am looking forward to your army if you post batreps of them. Chosen, Termie, and maulerfiend heavy armies are pretty interesting to me! My main problem with maulerfiends is simply that, to me at least, I play games where it is too expensive to deploy just one. My foes play with tons of high ap weapons that can pop my vehicles (also we are much more lax meaning our group's current best players are a Chaos Daemon/CSM player that tends to use CC in combination with ranged and a Tyranid Player who loves himself some MCs and genestealers (and occasionally dabbles in a Nurgle Slaanesh daemon army). SO... I guess that has more to do with my raiders.

Maulerfiends themself are great if used in multiples (from the few times I have seen them deployed). The difficulty is that one tends to become the hey we needed to use our guns to kill the mech anyways. Now if you play an army that is fast (moves an average of 12 inches or so) then this isn't as much a problem. I suppose the greatest problem with Maulerfiends is that they are situational

Termies can have that. However they still suffer from lacking And they Shall know no fear or have to pay for fearless.

I suppose what Spawn bring to the game is a tarpit unit that is fast and doesn't have to worry about cover. Bikes have to avoid certain forms of terrain. Raptors I cannot judge. Dudes in Land Raiders are great except you can only fit 10 guys in Chaos Raiders and it is an expensive purchase, and whilst Huron is great for infiltrating, not everybody wants to use Huron. I presume some people enjoy to play with other HQs (especially since one of the greatest parts of the Chaos Codex is the HQ subsection and he doesn't make any of the elites troops).

Burning brands are on limited units and the baleflamer is why chaos spawn, bikers, and other fast units aren't seen as often. In the end it really depends on your meta. In mine, bringing a Heldrake is unfair and makes the games unentertaining whilst throwing in berzerkers is responded to kindly with our greatest zest being using letdown units to beat the more infamous units.

To Aliaros:

But maulerfiends are also very cheap, and they can actually kill stuff - stuff that your small-arms can't (and are IMMUNE to small arms fire).

Cheap but if you take them, you pass on other HS which can kill stuff from afar from turn one, not 2-3. If small arms are shooting at spawn, it actually is good, because usually those marines in rhino can relax and they are much easier to kill than spawn.

Plus, Terminators can be T5 with a 2+ save for the same price, and the terminator armor seems rather more durable than W3 against most stuff. And terminators can deepstrike, and can take real close combat weapons like lightning claws and chainfists, and can take BS4 combi-weapons, which means they're likely doing more damage.

Imagine those 5T helps against small arms... Yet how many plasma shots do you need to kill them? Nurgle spawn are highly resistant to small arms fire also to plasma and other low AP / high str weapons which owns terminators, raptors and the like. Deep strike is so overrated. If you would play chaos often, you would see it as a hindrance, not as a plus, because there is no other method of deploying terminators. You forget that you have to plan for that 66% chance where you scatter 2d6, not for that 33% where you hit. Yes, you might do more damage for the opponent unprepared, but because of scatter - combi melta is much riskier (take pair of obliterators for that mission really) and as plasma hits hard, its usually hard to kill their points worth. Yes, you can take CC weapons, but you pay for them and you usually hit at I1 and you have 1 wound and only 5++. And last but not least you will have to wait for one round of enemy fire and only then assault. Rarely will that happen.

It's like, what niche do spawn really fill? They're a fast unit in a codex with several fast choices (bikes, raptors, dudes in land raiders, maulerfiends, huron infiltrating, etc.), and they're good against infantry in a codex with a baleflamer and a burning brand, and great terminators and cheap bolter dudes. I guess I can see the juggerlord delivery system, but even then... meh. I think I'd rather give the khorne lord terminator armor and use the points saved on spawn as a down-payment towards a land raider, or to mount him on a bike, and just take more bikes, etc.

Regular anti-spawn weapons would be poisoned, fleshbane weapons which are quite rare in the shooting form and while you are fast you should plan not to impale yourself on them in the melee form. Spawn also reacts very kindly to any survivability buffs - good cover, invisibility, endurance etc. As you run towards the enemy, you can alter spawns, so that wounded ones can get into the rear which can help tremendously. LR is expensive and ambiguous - suboptimal; raptors die like flies when any anti-meq weapon points at them (its a bit harder to shoot them because of their mobility, but still); bikes are great, but they have a bit different role and less wounds; maulerfiends are quite weak for me as they are AV12. They work if you build a list around them, yet spawn can serve almost in any list - you need to place your nurgle lord somewhere.. Why not on a bike, with spawn, getting that fist and brand to your enemy lines? You want choppiest thing in codex.. Well, you just gave your Jugger Lord 15 more wounds. Spawns hit more than LR and they are MUCH harder to kill than LR. Bikes gives you 2 speacial weapons and few bolter shots, while spawn hits harder and has better staying power in CC.

It surprises me you can even compare them with LR or terminator clumsiness (lets not forget you can't sweep) or raptor fragility. I think you highly overrate deepstrike, chaos LR's and highly underrate T6 3W beasts, fleet.

I like them. Are they a deathstar? I don't think so personally. But I think that for what they can do and how much they cost they are great. I played a game with 5 of them, and I gave them the mark of nurgle. They didn't really massacre anything but they tied a number of units up, and they took a lot of fire power that could have been thrown at other stuff. I think they can work really well.

A Nurgle terminator is twice as durable against lasguns than a nurgle spawn, and a terminator shoots BS4 combi-meltas and their close combat attacks ignore armor saves, and can be S8. The damage output isn't even close.

In this case, spawn are really only better against weapons specifically designed to kill terminators, while terminators are better against everything else. That's not a ringing endorsement for spawn.

Again, poo-pooing other stuff in the codex doesn't give you a reason to take spawn, which is really what I'm grasping for. When would you ever take a sigh of relief and say "well thank goodness I had SPAWN that game"? What do they do that's both necessary and can't be done by other units in the codex better or for cheaper?

 Ailaros wrote:
A Nurgle terminator is twice as durable against lasguns than a nurgle spawn, and a terminator shoots BS4 combi-meltas and their close combat attacks ignore armor saves, and can be S8. The damage output isn't even close.

On paper - maybe. You should take cover (50% night fighting) which improve those odds of survivability. Terminators die faster against any ap2, while spawns don't really care that much about any AP. My point is, most lists are designed to handle TEQ and those guns pointed at spawn (Lascannons, plasma, artillery) ain't no good against spawn. I'm saying there are certain guns which can kill spawn, but the regular ones are suboptimal. Maybe I'm repeating myself, but that why they are more survivable than terminators. This and any buffs / cover really. Damage output is lesser... But if you get the charge (and you should), you swamp enemy with wounds. Full tac squad is going to have hard time killing them..

 Ailaros wrote:
In this case, spawn are really only better against weapons specifically designed to kill terminators, while terminators are better against everything else. That's not a ringing endorsement for spawn.

Big generalization again. Weapons can be specifically designed to kill armor, MEQ and terminators.. While some armies may not have that good answer to spawn, which are hard to wound, hard to instant death and are forced to shoot low AP weapons at them, you are happy those weapons aren't killing someone who actually has armor. I think it would be simple to just do math how much rapid fire salvo from full tac squad could do to spawn and how much to terminators. Not to mention plasma cannons, who are just drooling to see some clustered termies..

 Ailaros wrote:
Again, poo-pooing other stuff in the codex doesn't give you a reason to take spawn, which is really what I'm grasping for. When would you ever take a sigh of relief and say "well thank goodness I had SPAWN that game"? What do they do that's both necessary and can't be done by other units in the codex better or for cheaper?

I think CSM codex has really bad internal balance and I'm going to poo-poo whats worth poo-pooing. Reason to take spawn: 1. Tarpit shooty squad 2. Tarpit choppy squad 3. Get top tear killers into melee (terminators can't do this right) 4. affect opponents deployment for first 3 reasons 5. take heat of high AP weaponry off your MEQ`s, TEQ`s. Those are that I can think off now.

Terminators certainly can't do what spawn are doing, because deep strike is so unreliable: they can't escort Lord, because only 4 fits into expensive LR; they are too slow to foot slog; if they deepstrike with lord, you are risking huge amount of points coming too late and loosing board presence in the first turn at least. Bikes has less wounds and certainly does less damage in melee.

My nurgle bike Lord and spawn are my main pushing force, so I don't make a sign of relief - I rely on them for a large part of killing which they do. I'm really opposing this terminator idea, because I had to use them for a long time and I really don't like them and I think your love for them comes from playing different army. I'd rather take a rhino of plague marines, than some terminators. But maybe thats my meta.

 RedAngel wrote:
Right, I used 4 x Nurgle Spawn last night and they did very well. I managed to charge a unit of 4 B.A bikes and rolled a 6 for attacks - 8 attacks per Spawn. They destroyed the entire unit.

I don't have the chaos book so I'm not sure how this was done. 32 attacks =16 hits. 16 hits equals 8 wounds. 8 wounds 2-3 unsaved wounds. If they had FNP that's less wounds suffered. Did the spawn have FC? Was there another USR they benefitted from I'm unaware of? Or was it a case of wildly good luck on your part & probability smashing bad luck on the BAs side?

Probably just good luck for me and bad luck for him. I cannot remember the exact rolls I made. On mathshammer you're correct though.

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Thinking crazy thoughts but what about MoTz on Spawn for some tiny constant save?

only with allied grotznik. Cybork spawn get a 4++

Wait, wait, don't you need to be battle brothers for this to work?

Grotznik says in the same army, nothing about bb or not. It works


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
A Nurgle terminator is twice as durable against lasguns than a nurgle spawn, and a terminator shoots BS4 combi-meltas and their close combat attacks ignore armor saves, and can be S8. The damage output isn't even close.

In this case, spawn are really only better against weapons specifically designed to kill terminators, while terminators are better against everything else. That's not a ringing endorsement for spawn.

Again, poo-pooing other stuff in the codex doesn't give you a reason to take spawn, which is really what I'm grasping for. When would you ever take a sigh of relief and say "well thank goodness I had SPAWN that game"? What do they do that's both necessary and can't be done by other units in the codex better or for cheaper?

Spawn are fast(ignore terrain, 12" move, and fleet) while terminators are slow slow
Spawn are fearless while terminators run off the board or get pinned

adding nurgle to one and not the other for durability comparisons? Wait, nurgle cultists are more durable than regular cultists, but that doesnt mean they are good.
Lets look at bolters, unmarked. 36 bolter hits will kill 3 terminators. 36 bolter hits will kill 4 spawn out of cover. Spawn ignore terrain, so they should always be in cover, making them more durrable against shooting than termaintors
unmarked vs lasguns (same as with nurgle against bolters) 36 lasgun hits will kill 2 terminators. 36 lasgunhits will kill 2 spawn. So even out of cover the spawn are as durable against lasguns(or bolters with nurgle).


Nothing else in the chaos codex can rapidly move up the board, engade either a scary choppy squad or dangerous shooty squad and keep them for 3-4 rounds of combat without fail. Most things in the chaos book are likely to run, are not fast, or are not cheap(most arent any of these).

Wow....so much here is just so funny.

Terminators have lots of downsides, they are more expensive than spawn if you are giving them non-standard PWs(fists, claws), combis, and Nurgle Marks, Nurgle Spawn = 36 points, Terminator with fist, Combi and Nurgle is what almost 50 points.

Spawn are much easier to get into combat, they move 12" with Fleet, terminators can only move 12" with an additional 200+ point transport, and never have fleet.

Terminators cannot sweep, so should they win combat other squads easily get away, which means they eat more shooting on average.

Terminators need a transport, or to deepstrike, which means they are either far more expensive or not hitting Combat unitl turn 3 at the earliest.

Termiantors are not fearless unless you run them with an Icon or fearless character.

NOt saying terminators are bad, they are not, but saying they are flat better than spawn is a mistake.

As for Durability:

Against a bolter it takes 27 bolter shots to kill 1 Nurgle Terminator and 27 bolter shots to kill 1 Nurgle Spawn with no cover, so exactly the same. If the spawn pics up a 5+ cover save they go up to needing 40.5 Bolter shots. 4+ cover take 54 shots. Cover does not raise terminator Durability at all against bolters


Against Lasguns with no cover a terminator is twice as good, so equivalent to spawn getting 4+ cover.

Against Plasma it takes 2.7 Plasma Shots to kill a terminator and 6.75 to kill a spawn. So the spawn without cover is 2.5 times as durable.

Against S8 Ap 2 or better the spawn are still twice as durable as the terminator.


If the spawn with No buffs fight the termies

Assuming the spawn charge because they should.

Termies kill 1 spawn (assuming all wielding power mauls because it keeps the points even, and is their best base weapon choice) and put a wound on another.

Spawn average 5.5 attacks each and chance are they kill 1 terminator. Though because of their random nature this can fluctuate a lot, if they get 8 poisoned attacks each (best case), they kill 2 Terminators..

SO it is a fairly even fight.

I'm also not saying spawn are amazing, but they are a unit that benefits from synergy better than the terminators in most cases, and are every bit as durable in general.

You just got exalted my friend

 Ailaros wrote:

. When would you ever take a sigh of relief and say "well thank goodness I had SPAWN that game"?

My answer to this is all the freaking time. My spawn consistently perform well (with my sorcerer attached in my last game they killed 5 Paladins in Close combat, Previously they have turn 1 charged a squad of 30 cultists and wiped them out (and the attached character) in 3 rounds of combat, they are great when the score in the scouring, I had 3 kill a 20 man Kroot squad, they are a very tactical unit (I frequently use them to tie up specific weapons and charge another unit it to do lots of killing, like tying up your fist/hammer, then hitting you with a Mauler fiend or Soul Grinder.... go ahead put a wound on my spawn while I wipe out your squad.). I have had them roll through half an oppoents army in games more than once. Now there have been times where they were not great as well, but far less often (for example against Venom Spam).

 Ailaros wrote:

mercer wrote:Using Abaddon with Rhino Chosen. Had 150 points spare

There are cooler things you could do with those points than just spawn, though.

I don't quite get the point of them, honestly. They can mangle light infantry, but practically everything else in the codex can do this already. I'd think that something a little heavier hitting would be more useful, whether a maulerfiend (which is fast, tough, and can seriously wreck harder targets), or 4x combi-plasma terminators (because ouch), or even just passing out a ton of destructor blades for everything and watch with glee as you do 4 or 5D6 S5 hits or so in a single turn without even needing to pile out of their rides to do it.

They are fast and resilient. In a Codex that needs ways to tie up the enemy early while it can bring it's slower moving CC to bear, these are extremely important traits to have.

Spawn are very, very good. The only issue is that they compete with possibly the best unit in the game.

They don't hit hard, but will generally win through attrition. Their speed also gives them a nice threat radius. They will beat up on most troops choices quite easily and can even do a number to gunlines.

I think they do best when they transport an IC (I like nurgle lord with mace for blobs and other xenos).

I would usually run 1 squad of Nurgle Spawn and 2 Heldrakes if I were a CSM player.

I have always had good results with spawn. They have tied up 50 man guard squads all game, went toe to toe with fleshhounds and reduced a full squad of them t9 one model in 4 turns and assainated tervigons like no ones business. Its 15 wounds at T6 for a 180 points. This doesnt even cover attaching an hq to them. My personal favorite is a unmarked biker sorcerer with a burning brand. If you happen to get endurance 9r invisibility 8t makes for a nigh unstoppable unit. The reason ilike them m9re than bikes is that they perform well against almost anything. Bikes have alot of problems with helldrakes and broadsides and similar high strength ignore cover weapons. They are n9t for everyone but they are a great choice in general.

I love using spawn. So good for what you have to pay to bring them. Escorting a nurgle biker lord, a juggy lord or just being fast T6 nouisances with 3 wounds each. Easily one of the stand out units of the codex. Like others have said it competes with drakes. 2drakes 5spawn is how I usually roll for my fasts.

I like the idea of giving them MoS to get them up to I4 but seeing as they are cover huggers without grenades, it might be for nothing.

I like the idea of giving them MoS to get them up to I4 but seeing as they are cover huggers without grenades, it might be for nothing.

I've tried this and it worked fine untill I met Manticores, Vindicators, Dreadnoughts/Smashing MC's etc. Which actually happens quite a lot once your meta gets used to you taking Spawn. This is the only reason I switched to the MoN variant. I won't go back on this decision soon I think.

 Cilithan wrote:

I like the idea of giving them MoS to get them up to I4 but seeing as they are cover huggers without grenades, it might be for nothing.

I've tried this and it worked fine untill I met Manticores, Vindicators, Dreadnoughts/Smashing MC's etc. Which actually happens quite a lot once your meta gets used to you taking Spawn. This is the only reason I switched to the MoN variant. I won't go back on this decision soon I think.

Fair point. I normally consider MoN as a bonus against small arms but removing the instant death threshold is a very good thing.

Have you ever tried spawn as an allied detachment to chaos daemons? I have been enjoying fast Daemons for a few games. You bring your choice of: Flesh hounds, beasts of nurgle, plague drones, seekers, fiends, and screamers.

I bring 10 hounds with a Khorne herald, a unit or two of beasts and a unit of drones for icon fun. Toss in a flying greater daemon and a back field herald for glyph and you have a very fast CC that can be very durable pending on what you brought.

 Ailaros wrote:
When would you ever take a sigh of relief and say "well thank goodness I had SPAWN that game"? What do they do that's both necessary and can't be done by other units in the codex better or for cheaper?

I say this practically every game. I take the following:
Chaos Lord, Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Black Mace, PAxe, Sigil of Corruption, and I rotate between Meltabombs and VotLW or Gift of Mutation, and 5 Nurgle Marked Chaos Spawn.

The Spawn provide much needed ablative wounds to get my Lord across the board and into combat without being massacred as he moves across the board. They're fast and a dangerous unit to deal with because of their mutation, T6, S5, Rage, and random attacks (sometimes you roll well for this, other times... not so much ). The spawn bog down everything in their way and give the Lord the space to sit near the back and hack away with one of his weapons based on his needs (this is usually after he wins a challenge).

Are they a perfect unit? No they have their downsides, but they're a fantastic shield for my Lord, and NO ONE expects to see a unit of spawn running across the board. I was in a tournament two weeks ago, and as soon as everyone knew I was playing Chaos, they expected to see 2 to 3 Heldrakes, when a unit of Spawn are jammed down their throat, no one seemed to care about a plane that wasn't on the board, and were more worried about the 15 wound shield and the Melee-centric Lord charging into their lines.

If I felt that Chaos Bikers had even half of the survivability of the Spawn I'd take them instead, but they don't in my experiences.

I took spawn for the first time yesterday in two games and I'm a believer.

Against a coteaz monkey spam list I rolled shrouded on my lord's gift. 2+ cover from ruins got the spawn into his lines and wrecked shop.

Against chaos daemons, they helped a maulerfiend with a daemon prince. He wanted to smash the spawn to avoid losing combat, but the maulerfiend would have taken him down to only 1 attack. He had trouble dealing with it.