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I know this is a british case, and its highly egotistical to believe there system is similar to America's courts, but at least in the U.S., a jury verdict doesn't mean much.

Juries are notoriously... confused, if not downright stupid. They don't understand the law, and they tend to pursue group think ideas, no matter how legally wrong they are. I bet once you see the full list of counts, very similar things will be ruled both ways, despite being essentially the same.

Second, the actual ruling itself, at least in the american system, is simply persuasive to other judges. Until it goes to an appeals court, and the appeals court rules, other lower level courts can easily 'distinguish and dismiss' this court case's rulings.

The biggest pain is going to be how expensive appeals are. If CHS wins anything, it would be getting a denial of appeal, so this case doesn't enter a lengthy, and expensive appeals process.

Again, though, just ignore everything I said, because I'm not familiar with the UK legal system, only the U.S. one.

It is a US case.

I was thinking the exact same thing, WRT stupidity of juries.

Just pure speculation, here, but I think its possible something like this could have happened:

Jury thinks that GW wouldn't have brought so many claims unless they had SOMETHING to go on. Very similar to the preexisting mindset that someone doesn't go on trial unless there is evidence they did SOMETHING wrong. This is a very real thing.

Jury gets into the mind set of well, we have to give GW something. So they give GW 1/3 of the claims. Its only fair. GW worked SO HARD and spent SO MUCH...

This is why the final results are going to be so interesting.

Goresaw wrote:
I know this is a british case, and its highly egotistical to believe there system is similar to America's courts, but at least in the U.S., a jury verdict doesn't mean much.

Juries are notoriously... confused, if not downright stupid. They don't understand the law, and they tend to pursue group think ideas, no matter how legally wrong they are. I bet once you see the full list of counts, very similar things will be ruled both ways, despite being essentially the same.

Second, the actual ruling itself, at least in the american system, is simply persuasive to other judges. Until it goes to an appeals court, and the appeals court rules, other lower level courts can easily 'distinguish and dismiss' this court case's rulings.

The biggest pain is going to be how expensive appeals are. If CHS wins anything, it would be getting a denial of appeal, so this case doesn't enter a lengthy, and expensive appeals process.

Again, though, just ignore everything I said, because I'm not familiar with the UK legal system, only the U.S. one.

Great News! The trial was actually held in Chicargo, IL, under US law, because Chapterhouse is a US company.

Things to keep in mind about the $25K judgment and why it isn't really that significant.

Firstly, the judgment doesn't mean that CHS has to immediately stroke a check for $25K and hand it over to GW. It doesn't mean that GW suddenly has access to CHS's bank accounts or other assets to seize those funds. Depending on whether or not either side decides to appeal, the penalty may not even require payment for years. Additionally, assuming the owner of CHS had decent legal advice, he was probably putting money aside specifically to assit in paying any judgment that came up.

Secondly, it is more than likely that CHS was insured. The company seemed to have it's business together, even back to years ago where the owner contended that he had legal representation telling him that what he was doing was allowed within the confines of US law. If the owner was the type of person to do the due diligence to find out if his actions were legal (rather than assuming they were), it's more than likely that he also insured his business. If he does have insurance, his only out of pocket expense will be the deductible that isn't likely to be more than a few thousand dollars.

Even if the owner doesn't have the money, must pay now, and has no insurance, he can still file Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Contrary to popular belief, a business filing bankruptcy does not mean the business closes its doors and goes away. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is merely a debt restructuring. At the very least, a Ch11 bankruptcy would force GW to accept payments that the trustee deemed to be acceptible for the judgment; but it's equally likely that the trustee could set aside the entire balance of the judgment. Since CHS is a basement enterprise, it is unlikely that they have any significant amount of assets (real estate, vehicles, heavy machinery, stock/bond/investment, etc.) that a creditor could demand be liquidated. For a company like CHS, a simple Ch11 bankruptcy would barely impact their ability to business at all. (This is, of course, assuming the business is incorporated or something. If not, he could file personal bankrtupcy, which is even more favorable to the debtor.)

While I have no idea what impact this judgment will have on how GW does business, I am confident in saying that it will have no significant affect on CHS. CHS will modify how they advertise things on their website (which they first did immediately after being served with the suit papers) and avoid marketing entire models that are too close to the GW aesthetic (like the Doomseer). That's about it.

Great News! The trial was actually held in Chicargo, IL, under US law, because Chapterhouse is a US company.

As posted previously the choice of where the case is going to be held is just as important as trying the case.

The reason why I called the verdict correctly is the years of dealing and knowing what kind environment that is our legal system.

Jury thinks that GW wouldn't have brought so many claims unless they had SOMETHING to go on. Very similar to the preexisting mindset that someone doesn't go on trial unless there is evidence they did SOMETHING wrong. This is a very real thing.

Posted previously of what GW's game plan was. The analogy is "Throwing mud into the wall and see what sticks". Again to what I've seen this is more of a standard procedure and the results, right or wrong is what I believe happened in the current verdict.

Now this case is not yet over however I'm greatly amused on how things went.

This thread is a bit pre-mature, no?

 SickSix wrote:
This thread is a bit pre-mature, no?

Sort of agree as this is not over yet. Things can still happen.

 SickSix wrote:
This thread is a bit pre-mature, no?

Sort of, but it serves to stop this discussion (which is off topic) clogging up the other thread.

 Gymnogyps wrote:
It is a US case.

I was thinking the exact same thing, WRT stupidity of juries.

Just pure speculation, here, but I think its possible something like this could have happened:

Jury thinks that GW wouldn't have brought so many claims unless they had SOMETHING to go on. Very similar to the preexisting mindset that someone doesn't go on trial unless there is evidence they did SOMETHING wrong. This is a very real thing.

Jury gets into the mind set of well, we have to give GW something. So they give GW 1/3 of the claims. Its only fair. GW worked SO HARD and spent SO MUCH...

This is why the final results are going to be so interesting.

That is how I feel too.

 Sidstyler wrote:
That's kinda hard to do however when it's GW's honest belief that they "own" even the most generic of sci-fi concepts that have predated their company's existence by many years.

Pretty much everyone making models of soldiers and tanks is at risk.

This is great news! Not only do they own them, but they created them. From their own minds!

Really the speculation of the financial impact of to CHS is useless at this point. It's unlikely to be the final damage number, and no one knows CHS financials beyond personal income, and the total taken in over 4 years because that came out in the trial (unlike GWs financial report, which are public, and released quarterly). Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it seems like wishful thinking every time someone posts about how the damages could kill CHS.

This is nothing but massive win for CHS. Anyone who says otherwise just isn't paying attention.

CHS has a legal precendent that their business does not infringe on IP, and that allows a lot of smaller businesses in the similar '3rd party Warhammer accessories' field to work with greatly reduced fear.

Overly simplistic 'CHS had to pay so they lost!' statements are absurd. 25k paid in some slow payment scheme is absolutely nothing for a business that makes apparently a few hundred k a year, for protecting your business from a giant that's pissed away over a million dollars in pursuing this case.

If there isn't a major shakeup in GW leadership after this; they may actually be trying to torpedo the business.

I read the quotes by the IP manager...I feel like that thought finishes itself

I happen to enjoy GWs products but not thier methods, they deserved a kick in the teeth; hopefully this will be taken as one. It likely will not.

 Killionaire wrote:
This is nothing but massive win for CHS. Anyone who says otherwise just isn't paying attention.

CHS has a legal precendent that their business does not infringe on IP, and that allows a lot of smaller businesses in the similar '3rd party Warhammer accessories' field to work with greatly reduced fear.

Overly simplistic 'CHS had to pay so they lost!' statements are absurd. 25k paid in some slow payment scheme is absolutely nothing for a business that makes apparently a few hundred k a year, for protecting your business from a giant that's pissed away over a million dollars in pursuing this case.

CHS doesnt "make" a few hundred k per year.

For GW it will be business as usual and a tax write off for the attorney fees.

It's a hit to both sides, it's simply a question of who can better absorb the hit. I suspect that's GW.

I don't know CHS' financial situation, but the usual figure I hear quoted is that they pull in 100K a year in gross revenue. Losing 25% of your gross isn't a small deal.

The problem here, from GW's perspective, is two-fold.

First off, no matter how much it bunches your panties when GW issues C&D orders, understand that they have to. If you don't defend your trademarks, you lose them. So it's not like GW has a lot of choice in matters like this; they're obliged to make the attempt even when the infringement is less than blatant.

Secondly, and this is the big one, we run into a potential issue of GW themselves being accused of IP theft by the third-party manufacturers that parasitize their business.

Take, for an example of something actually produced by Chapterhouse, Tyranid Shrikes. Sure, it's a conversion kit for Warriors, so the issue can get fuzzy, but if GW were to produce a Shrike kit of their own, they'd be at risk of a lawsuit if they made one that closely resembled the CHS version.

Part of the answer for GW is to just stop making rules for models they don't actually have ready to produce, so if you want to consider that a win for CHS, go ahead, but in the long run it'll just mean less variety in what shows up in future codices.

Additionally, even for "original" kits by third-party groups, if GW were to in the future decide to produce something similar, they might run into trouble. It's less of an issue than they might face for kits they know they want to produce eventually (eg, Shrikes), but it still limits their options slightly for future products. If a 3rd-party studio made a Flakk Rhino conversion kit, then GW might run into trouble if they made one of their own, for example.

We won't really know what the consequences will be until we get a good look at the exact rulings on individual products.

 Raesvelg wrote:
The problem here, from GW's perspective, is two-fold.

First off, no matter how much it bunches your panties when GW issues C&D orders, understand that they have to. If you don't defend your trademarks, you lose them. So it's not like GW has a lot of choice in matters like this; they're obliged to make the attempt even when the infringement is less than blatant.

I freely admit I'm a little ignorant in this area, but isn't issuing a C+D out of the blue somewhat akin to punching someone in the face as soon as they say something you don't agree with? Wouldn't there be a more cooperative method of both defending their IP and not being so heavy handed?

Secondly, and this is the big one, we run into a potential issue of GW themselves being accused of IP theft by the third-party manufacturers that parasitize their business.

Take, for an example of something actually produced by Chapterhouse, Tyranid Shrikes. Sure, it's a conversion kit for Warriors, so the issue can get fuzzy, but if GW were to produce a Shrike kit of their own, they'd be at risk of a lawsuit if they made one that closely resembled the CHS version.

Taking that example, I believe CHS released the Shrike kit sometime last year. How long have Shrikes existed in the Tyranid codex? GW were flat out wrong in their approach to releasing things, and were leaving themselves open to this. One only has to look at how the release pattern has changed recently to see the evidence of that.

Part of the answer for GW is to just stop making rules for models they don't actually have ready to produce, so if you want to consider that a win for CHS, go ahead, but in the long run it'll just mean less variety in what shows up in future codices.

Well, every new unit in every Codex released in the last what, twelve?, months has had a model to accompany it. It's often reported that models are ready many months if not years in advance of production, so all this likely means is they simply have to get their gak together and be better organised. It won't restrict new releases, as new units are clearly their chosen method of generating income from existing players, because its much less risky than updating models that people may or may not prefer to the ones they replace.

Additionally, even for "original" kits by third-party groups, if GW were to in the future decide to produce something similar, they might run into trouble. It's less of an issue than they might face for kits they know they want to produce eventually (eg, Shrikes), but it still limits their options slightly for future products. If a 3rd-party studio made a Flakk Rhino conversion kit, then GW might run into trouble if they made one of their own, for example.

There's room for more than one version of a given model, GW will have to you know, be original if this situation exists.

We won't really know what the consequences will be until we get a good look at the exact rulings on individual products.

Very true, but every one that has been ruled on is obviously one GW feels is important, as they dropped a bunch before the court case.

 Killionaire wrote:
This is nothing but massive win for CHS. Anyone who says otherwise just isn't paying attention.

CHS has a legal precendent that their business does not infringe on IP, and that allows a lot of smaller businesses in the similar '3rd party Warhammer accessories' field to work with greatly reduced fear.

Overly simplistic 'CHS had to pay so they lost!' statements are absurd. 25k paid in some slow payment scheme is absolutely nothing for a business that makes apparently a few hundred k a year, for protecting your business from a giant that's pissed away over a million dollars in pursuing this case.

]

It may be a massive win for CHS, or it may be a big disaster

we just don't know enough yet (although things look reasonably positive so far).

The verdict has to survive the Judge and any possible appeals

If there are appeals then CHS has to keep their pro-bono representation (can their lawyers leave now if they want to or are they forced to carry on representing them?)

Then they have to be able to pay the fine (or avoid it via chapter 11 or similar) and survive as a going concern

Only then will it have been a massive win

 Raesvelg wrote:
The problem here, from GW's perspective, is two-fold.

First off, no matter how much it bunches your panties when GW issues C&D orders, understand that they have to. If you don't defend your trademarks, you lose them. So it's not like GW has a lot of choice in matters like this; they're obliged to make the attempt even when the infringement is less than blatant.

Yes, but only the trademarks, not the copyrights.

 Raesvelg wrote:
Secondly, and this is the big one, we run into a potential issue of GW themselves being accused of IP theft by the third-party manufacturers that parasitize their business.

Take, for an example of something actually produced by Chapterhouse, Tyranid Shrikes. Sure, it's a conversion kit for Warriors, so the issue can get fuzzy, but if GW were to produce a Shrike kit of their own, they'd be at risk of a lawsuit if they made one that closely resembled the CHS version.

Not true, GW have an automatic right to produce derivative works from their own work.

Ouze, you might want to change the thread title to: "GW vs Chapterhouse" since GW initiated the suit.

I think they will rename the tyranid tervigon, eldar jetbike and other pieces of their IP they have lost.

Eldarzord screamerflyer and Tyranid termipooper. etc.

This was how they handled the paint range, re-release everything with a new and stupid name.

This was how they handled the paint range, re-release everything with a new and stupid name.

I believe the same way on how they handled the paints.

 scarletsquig wrote:
I think they will rename the tyranid tervigon, eldar jetbike and other pieces of their IP they have lost.

Eldarzord screamerflyer and Tyranid termipooper. etc.

This was how they handled the paint range, re-release everything with a new and stupid name.

Off topic, I know, but holy crap; congrats. You just made me snarf my water all over my desk with the "termipooper" name. I would gladly own one of those.

Absolutely hilarious.

You know whats sweet?
starting a discussion of the consequences of a verdict, and then giving no hint as to what the verdict is or how to find out what it is.

 Seaward wrote:
It's a hit to both sides, it's simply a question of who can better absorb the hit. I suspect that's GW.

I don't know CHS' financial situation, but the usual figure I hear quoted is that they pull in 100K a year in gross revenue. Losing 25% of your gross isn't a small deal.

Considering the amount of credit card offers I receive in the mail--and the fact he has a (now legally defined/defensible) 100k/year business--I imagine he could put a majority of that on a small business loan and/or credit card, then make payments. 25,000 dollars is a car.



I think this was a catastrophe for Games Workshop. They likely spent 1+ million dollars on a case--that just granted websites the ability to post "Space Marine/Eldar compatible bits"--along with losing 2/3 of their claims (that actually made trial--remember many got tossed before a jury brought a verdict). Which, the moment those losing claims are published--you'll see 3rd party sites updating their web carts.

In return, it appears they received 25,000 dollars and 30 or so defensible actions on what was likely blatant (DoomSeer) violations. I doubt that 25,000 even covered travel costs for this trial.


What happens if they sue Moskin and company for malpractice? Does that endanger the verdict if they were to win that?

As far as I can see Moskin played very hard indeed and in the case of the US Copyright Office letters arguably may have done something unethical.

However the core weakness in the GW case was the weakness of their claims and the terrible job they did in gathering evidence.

Leaving aside the issue of trademarking a word like "tactical", GW claimed consumers were confused between the Chapter House products and official GW products, but apparently were unable to produce any evidence to support this claim.

 Raesvelg wrote:
Additionally, even for "original" kits by third-party groups, if GW were to in the future decide to produce something similar, they might run into trouble. It's less of an issue than they might face for kits they know they want to produce eventually (eg, Shrikes), but it still limits their options slightly for future products. If a 3rd-party studio made a Flakk Rhino conversion kit, then GW might run into trouble if they made one of their own, for example.

This doesn't concern me in the slightest. For one thing, it's already happening with everything companies out there are producing anyway. If GW wanted to add "clockwork angels" to Sisters, they can't because Privateer already did theirs, etc. The entire industry's already affecting GW in many ways, that some of it's "closer to home" is hardly relevant. For another example, all the "fantasy football" stuff out there means GW will never be comfortable with making a new Blood Bowl iteration since they cannot control that genre.

timd wrote:
Ouze, you might want to change the thread title to: "GW vs Chapterhouse" since GW initiated the suit.

You're right, of course. That's done. Unfortunately due to the vagaries of Dakka it will remain the original way in subsequent posts I believe.

You can always change the title of the post you're composing/have composed.

Some users do that for 'stealth comedy' reasons...

 azreal13 wrote:

I freely admit I'm a little ignorant in this area, but isn't issuing a C+D out of the blue somewhat akin to punching someone in the face as soon as they say something you don't agree with? Wouldn't there be a more cooperative method of both defending their IP and not being so heavy handed?

How? The only other option they really have would be to license the work to a third party, and if they don't want to (and clearly they don't, for obvious reasons), then you can't expect them to be held ransom by companies that go ahead and violate (or skirt the edge of violating) their trademarks and copyrights anyway.

C&Ds may be rather blunt, but the content wouldn't vary if you were really polite about telling someone to stop ripping off your products.

 azreal13 wrote:

There's room for more than one version of a given model, GW will have to you know, be original if this situation exists.

One would question why people seem to be holding GW to a higher standard than the third-party groups who haven't been particularly original themselves, but that's not relevant to this specific point. Which I'll get to in a second.

 Baragash wrote:

Not true, GW have an automatic right to produce derivative works from their own work.

Not just automatic, but exclusive, mind. Which is where we get into trouble with a few of the rulings we do know about.

Is a Flakk Rhino conversion kit a derivative work?

If the answer is yes, then it's a non-issue; a company without the license can't make one to begin with.

If, however, the argument is made that you can't copyright/trademark a simple shape (as appears to be the case with the Marine shoulder pads), then the shape of any empty part of a Rhino kit is fair game. Hell, a company could spend another 2% of cost to create a base element that also accepts that shape, call it a weapon emplacement and sue GW for sticking it on top of a Rhino someday.

This of course raises the issue of design aesthetic and all that, but GW probably isn't going to be happy with the idea of having to go back and sue twenty more people who think that because you can't copyright the shape of a Rhino door, you can produce your own aesthetically-identical weapon sponsons, or find themselves getting sued by the guy who make the Flakk turret that just-so-happened to look overwhelmingly 40K-Imperial. That's almost undoubtedly not a suit that the turret-maker could win, mind, but given the way that IP trolls have played out in other media, it's not unreasonable to assume that someone wouldn't try in the hopes of a quick settlement.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

This doesn't concern me in the slightest. For one thing, it's already happening with everything companies out there are producing anyway. If GW wanted to add "clockwork angels" to Sisters, they can't because Privateer already did theirs, etc.

Except that they can, so long as it's not possible to confuse their Clockwork Sisters for Privateer's models. The concept of a clockwork soldier hasn't been (and probably cannot be at this point) copyrighted. The issue isn't whether a given concept is being used, it's whether it's being used in a fashion that treads on someone else's IP.

Just because Honda made the Civic doesn't mean I can't create my own inexpensive compact car. It does mean that I can't take a Honda Civic, slap a wing on the back and call it a Blonda Blivic without Honda suing me into oblivion.

Ultimately it's all speculation until the judge rules, and we know exactly what products got ruled in which fashion. It's easy to say that CHS wins because they got 2/3rds of the rulings in their favor, but given that probably 2/3rds of the contested products were things like shoulder pads and vehicle doors, it's not too hard to arrive at that number, since we're told that the jury said you can't copyright the shape of a SM shoulder pad, after all.

Okay Raesvlg who are you... really? You are coming off too polished on certain aspects of your reply.

Curious I am.