Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Gifblaur wrote:
She REALLY wants a wraithknight. Cool model so sure why not? But for actual use I just can't see how it's effective. Sure it's somewhat sturdy but it's hard to hide. It has access to some decent weapon options but so do two WL which I can get for the same points?

They are nice models, but its strength is more of a mental game on the opponent than anything else. An equal number of points spend on smaller armored units or walkers. If you play an opponent that is scared of the big nasty walker thingie then it will pay for itself in spades. It will draw a ton of fire, an opponent will move their units from their planned uses to avoid direct confrontation, and so on. If on the other hand your opponent isn't scared by the big walker thingie, you will find it less useful than spending those points on 2 fire prisms and some other support instead. Some players are very panicky when they see a big and tough target, while others easily ignore it, feeding it minor targets while they destroy the rest of the opponent's force.


I would certainly add one for occasional usage because they are really nice models and if she wants one, well then why are you asking us? Just do what you are told.

Skriker

It has 2 long range S10 cannons that have a chance to instantly kill what ever it touches. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It has 2 long range S10 cannons that have a chance to instantly kill what ever it touches. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

It has - if it makes it through the game - a maximum of 10 shots in a 5-turn game, only 6 of which will hit without buffing your Land-raider-prized Wraithknight by allocating even more assets from your army to boost it.

It's hard to get those points "back" with just 6 shots in a game (in the most ideal of circumstances). Not impossible. But hard.

That's why you swap one for a Suncannon.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It has 2 long range S10 cannons that have a chance to instantly kill what ever it touches. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

It has - if it makes it through the game - a maximum of 10 shots in a 5-turn game, only 6 of which will hit without buffing your Land-raider-prized Wraithknight by allocating even more assets from your army to boost it.

It's hard to get those points "back" with just 6 shots in a game (in the most ideal of circumstances). Not impossible. But hard.

Ai, and if it does hit, it will hurt like hell. It still has S10 melee attacks and it can hop across the field. Sure, it will attract a lot of fire, but that's what the T8 and 5W are for.
The WK worries me. If it moved 6" a turn then I could ignore it, but at 12" I have a problem.

Well, I do have tes labs, but in order to use those I have to get very close, which is a hard thing to do against something that can hop 12" away.

 Skriker wrote:

They are nice models, but its strength is more of a mental game on the opponent than anything else. An equal number of points spend on smaller armored units or walkers. If you play an opponent that is scared of the big nasty walker thingie then it will pay for itself in spades. It will draw a ton of fire, an opponent will move their units from their planned uses to avoid direct confrontation, and so on. If on the other hand your opponent isn't scared by the big walker thingie, you will find it less useful than spending those points on 2 fire prisms and some other support instead. Some players are very panicky when they see a big and tough target, while others easily ignore it, feeding it minor targets while they destroy the rest of the opponent's force.

But the best loadout is cheaper than two Prisms, even if you're not upgrading the Prisms at all. And it's more durable in the face of most things than two naked Prisms too. It's also a little hard to "feed it minor targets" when it can move 12" a turn (or 12+d6" for Iyanden) - it's no easier to engage than any tank if it doesn't want to be engaged, and it's a lot less vulnerable to S4 chargers. And those minor targets need to be able to survive in CC against it. It's just straight-up better than two Prisms if you'd mostly be using the Prisms' Lance mode in a game against anything other than lots of poison or snipers. It adds a significant CC threat to a skimmer-heavy army which can actually keep up with the skimmers and threaten the enemy from turn 2.

Last, it only takes up one HS slot, which is a big deal when you have the option of taking the incredibly point-efficient but slot-inefficient artillery batteries.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That's why you swap one for a Suncannon.

You can't. It's either ditch them both for a suncannon + shield, or keep them both.

Well, there's also the ghost glaive, but at S10 Ap2 base, I don't really see why you would give him a cc weapon.

Right, but can't you take a brightlance for its shoulders?

Suncannon and Brightlance is a good armament.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Right, but can't you take a brightlance for its shoulders?

Suncannon and Brightlance is a good armament.

Starcannon and Brightlance.

Suncannon is something scarier.

Only tried it once with its basic configuration.
It killed 2 x vindicators, 2 x demon princes, 1 x rhino and his last marine hiding behind an objective
I dare say it made its points back and more.
First prince it charged and smacked down in melee, and the other died to a snap shot as his black mace prince tried to charge him.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It has 2 long range S10 cannons that have a chance to instantly kill what ever it touches. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

It has - if it makes it through the game - a maximum of 10 shots in a 5-turn game, only 6 of which will hit without buffing your Land-raider-prized Wraithknight by allocating even more assets from your army to boost it.

It's hard to get those points "back" with just 6 shots in a game (in the most ideal of circumstances). Not impossible. But hard.

It's really not, there are plenty of expensive T4-5 Targets out there, without EW that it's Wraithcannons are excellent against. It's also great against Vehicles. You've also got a Str 10 HOW, and 4-5 Strength 10 Init 5 attacks as well. It's really brutal.

I think way too many people, like I was before, are being offput by it on paper. You really need to throw on the tabletop a few times to understand how good it is.

 Sasori wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It has 2 long range S10 cannons that have a chance to instantly kill what ever it touches. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

It has - if it makes it through the game - a maximum of 10 shots in a 5-turn game, only 6 of which will hit without buffing your Land-raider-prized Wraithknight by allocating even more assets from your army to boost it.

It's hard to get those points "back" with just 6 shots in a game (in the most ideal of circumstances). Not impossible. But hard.

It's really not, there are plenty of expensive T4-5 Targets out there, without EW that it's Wraithcannons are excellent against. It's also great against Vehicles. You've also got a Str 10 HOW, and 4-5 Strength 10 Init 5 attacks as well. It's really brutal.

I think way too many people, like I was before, are being offput by it on paper. You really need to throw on the tabletop a few times to understand how good it is.

Yep, and it can even down T6+ with the distort rule. Those heavy WC are nothing to sneeze at.

Actually, I agree that it really shines in stock format. On paper I like the suncannon loadout but I found the basic one better for a number of reasons.

1)Cost. Those 60pts freed up help in my wraith list. Stuff is already expensive so where ever I can skimp is helpful

2)Anti-Tank. initially I thought that my WG would take care of anti-tank duties, at least the bigger ones. But I've found that I prefer to use them to obliterate squads of squishies. The wraithknight does rather well in killing some of the stuff that I have to deal with.

3)Fear Factor. Yes, it scares certain opponents. But I've found that said people are scared of it regardless of it's loadout. Again, I can cheap out to make my other guys even more nasty.

As a side note: Wraith Guard with scythes are hilarious.

 Xeriapt wrote:
Im planning on using a barebones wraithknight in my foot wraith list. The long range anti-tank and mobility it brings is pretty useful.

This would make sense. He is jump MC and so can complete well a lumbering army.

pantsonhead wrote:
But the best loadout is cheaper than two Prisms, even if you're not upgrading the Prisms at all. And it's more durable in the face of most things than two naked Prisms too. It's also a little hard to "feed it minor targets" when it can move 12" a turn (or 12+d6" for Iyanden) - it's no easier to engage than any tank if it doesn't want to be engaged, and it's a lot less vulnerable to S4 chargers. And those minor targets need to be able to survive in CC against it. It's just straight-up better than two Prisms if you'd mostly be using the Prisms' Lance mode in a game against anything other than lots of poison or snipers. It adds a significant CC threat to a skimmer-heavy army which can actually keep up with the skimmers and threaten the enemy from turn 2.

Last, it only takes up one HS slot, which is a big deal when you have the option of taking the incredibly point-efficient but slot-inefficient artillery batteries.

Mate, war and war games is all about limiting the impact your opponent's big boys have on the battle. That is the best tactic when dealing with something that eats as many points as the wraithknight. The efforts to isolate and limit do not need to be perfect. The units don't have to be the best you have, they just have to be in the way at the right time to get the job done. They don't even need to SURVIVE the CC against it. That is the role of sacrificial lambs after all.

Yes it has its uses, but at times having all your points tied up into a single model is less tactically useful or sound. The biggest baddest hammer isn't not the only tool in the box and isn't the only answer either. It definitely depends on the scenario, what you need/want to accomplish and the experience and abilities of your opponent. A good opponent will do their utmost to limit the impact your big hammer has on the fight, meanwhile destroying as much of the rest of your army at the same time so that you have your cool toy, but no troops to hold objectives, or enough forces at all to win the game.

it is all about options and while the wraithknight is a cool model and can bring some pain, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't ALWAYS the answer.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

it is all about options and while the wraithknight is a cool model and can bring some pain, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't ALWAYS the answer.

When is it ever the answer? That's the more relevant question.

This is just a fool's gold unit.

Hmmm, so it's primarily a fire magnet, then?

Good to know. I'll remember this.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It has 2 long range S10 cannons that have a chance to instantly kill what ever it touches. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

It has - if it makes it through the game - a maximum of 10 shots in a 5-turn game, only 6 of which will hit without buffing your Land-raider-prized Wraithknight by allocating even more assets from your army to boost it.

It's hard to get those points "back" with just 6 shots in a game (in the most ideal of circumstances). Not impossible. But hard.

Hey, another model suffering from Rupturecannonitis!

 Skriker wrote:

Mate, war and war games is all about limiting the impact your opponent's big boys have on the battle. That is the best tactic when dealing with something that eats as many points as the wraithknight. The efforts to isolate and limit do not need to be perfect. The units don't have to be the best you have, they just have to be in the way at the right time to get the job done. They don't even need to SURVIVE the CC against it. That is the role of sacrificial lambs after all.

Yes it has its uses, but at times having all your points tied up into a single model is less tactically useful or sound. The biggest baddest hammer isn't not the only tool in the box and isn't the only answer either. It definitely depends on the scenario, what you need/want to accomplish and the experience and abilities of your opponent. A good opponent will do their utmost to limit the impact your big hammer has on the fight, meanwhile destroying as much of the rest of your army at the same time so that you have your cool toy, but no troops to hold objectives, or enough forces at all to win the game.

it is all about options and while the wraithknight is a cool model and can bring some pain, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't ALWAYS the answer.

I don't think we disagree. I certainly wasn't claiming the WK is always the answer. It's obviously not great against lots of snipers or poison. Melee weapons with ID regardless of toughness are scary for it. Dire Avengers are surprisingly effective against them on a per-point basis. Its offensive capabilities are limited against some hordes where there's simply no good target for its guns and where the enemy units are unlikely to fail their morale checks when losing combat.

My point was that against lots of armies it actually has ranged firepower commensurate with its points cost - if Railheads or Fire Prisms can be worthwhile in games where their blast fire isn't used, WKs are useful as weapons platforms in those games too. It's also a lot harder to bog down in CC than many other MCs because it's very fast. Plus if played with a few Serpents with Guardians or Dire Avengers it's going to be pretty easy for the Eldar player to blow away the tarpit unit without the WK needing to slow down.

What do you have in mind for trying to isolate and limit the WK? How do you isolate a unit that can move just as fast as the skimmers or jetbikes or warp spiders coming at you along with it? You're unlikely to ever be able to charge it with a tarpit unit because of its 12" move, so anything that you want to use to slow it down has to last more than two phases of CC, and if they're not Fearless or similar they're going to be taking morale checks each phase at a significant penalty with a huge risk of getting swept.

It's also just not that expensive. As I noted, it's cheaper than two naked Fire Prisms. It costs almost exactly the same as a minimum squad of Guardians in a well-equipped Serpent. It is significantly less expensive than a minimum squad of Wraithguard (let alone Scytheguard) in a Serpent.

It's a phenomenal addition to just about every list that already includes a few skimmers, and frees up extremely valuable HS slots relative to comparable long-range anti-tank options. I can fill out my HS slots with a large number of T7 and T8 wounds with 2 S10 shots and 6 S6/7 barrage blasts, plus a huge CC threat, for 420 points. 3 Prisms with only holofields cost the same, only do better at AT against high AVs, and actually have less anti-infantry punch in most situations, plus they need to avoid CC at all costs and don't put a whole lot of early pressure on your opponent such that they might have something better to shoot at than your approaching Serpents. Plus Prisms without Spirit Stones are really vulnerable to losing all of their offense for a turn /except/ their ability to shoot worse-than-wraithcannon snapshots.

pantsonhead wrote:
I don't think we disagree. I certainly wasn't claiming the WK is always the answer. It's obviously not great against lots of snipers or poison. Melee weapons with ID regardless of toughness are scary for it. Dire Avengers are surprisingly effective against them on a per-point basis. Its offensive capabilities are limited against some hordes where there's simply no good target for its guns and where the enemy units are unlikely to fail their morale checks when losing combat.

Apologies if I misunderstood. My whole point is to remove the uber unit mentality from the situation. Reading your follow up makes it clearer where you are coming from and everything you wrote works for me.

In many instances, though, the most impact a large new unit like that has is psychological more than perfection on the table top. Panic at seeing it there and then letting that one model's movement and actions supercede all of your own battle plans gives it even more power in the fight than it deserves. Sometimes having such an obvious target is advantageous, but at other times it isn't. The key is to know which and when and if facing one to realize that it is just one unit in the opposing army and not let it control *your* game.

Sadly none of my regular opponents play eldar so I won't likely have a chance to fight against one any time soon.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

pantsonhead wrote:
I don't think we disagree. I certainly wasn't claiming the WK is always the answer. It's obviously not great against lots of snipers or poison. Melee weapons with ID regardless of toughness are scary for it. Dire Avengers are surprisingly effective against them on a per-point basis. Its offensive capabilities are limited against some hordes where there's simply no good target for its guns and where the enemy units are unlikely to fail their morale checks when losing combat.

Apologies if I misunderstood. My whole point is to remove the uber unit mentality from the situation. Reading your follow up makes it clearer where you are coming from and everything you wrote works for me.

In many instances, though, the most impact a large new unit like that has is psychological more than perfection on the table top. Panic at seeing it there and then letting that one model's movement and actions supercede all of your own battle plans gives it even more power in the fight than it deserves. Sometimes having such an obvious target is advantageous, but at other times it isn't. The key is to know which and when and if facing one to realize that it is just one unit in the opposing army and not let it control *your* game.

Sadly none of my regular opponents play eldar so I won't likely have a chance to fight against one any time soon.

Skriker

There is always Vassal...

...when they update to accomodate the new units anyway.