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 Sasori wrote:
Fear needs work. Half the armies in the game being immune to a USR, is stupid.

It'd be nice it ATSKNF just gave a reroll against fear, instead of being immune. The only thing that should be immune to fear, is Fearless.

And They Shall Know Somewhat Less Fear?

pantsonhead wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Fear needs work. Half the armies in the game being immune to a USR, is stupid.

It'd be nice it ATSKNF just gave a reroll against fear, instead of being immune. The only thing that should be immune to fear, is Fearless.

And They Shall Know Somewhat Less Fear?

And They Shall Know That Warpspawn Is a Big Deal And Regroup For The Moment.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

Aaaand to finish it off.... Psykers and warlord traits in general! First of all, the randomness is terrible. It makes no sense that the hardened psykers (any imperial psyker especially Space Marine and inquisitor psykers, any CSM or Daemon Psyker, any Eldar psyker, any Mastery Level 4 psyker) will have no clue what spells they are using before the battle immediately begins. And our warriors that aren't named seem to not know what they are good at until randomly rolled. Now my biggest problem with the randomness is that it promotes GW being lazy. They can freely throw in broken, balanced, and underpowered spells in the excuse that you have an equal chance of getting any of them. Cool concept for warlord traits, terrible execution.

And then Psykers themself. No offense but it isn't fun for my Pink Horror shooting to be denied 1/6th of the time, 1/3rd of the time, and 1/2 of the time. A Nid gets close enough and they become meaningless, the enemy a Space Marine player with a librarian, useless, GK, well Daemons..... Somehow the assault spells are considered bad and the spells that are good are bufffing spells. The spells decent are debuff spells. I'd rather each be equal and have merit. (also guardsman denied the witch what O.o).

I honestly don't get all the massive whining and b****ing over random psyker powers...
Fantasy players have had "random wizard spells" for over 15 years and don't bat an eyelash at it. We just get on with things and plan accordingly once we generate our "random powers" and manage to do just fine.

If you build a list that literally revolved around needing 1 or 2 specific psyker powers to work, then that's your own fault when things don't work out the way you wanted them too.
Random powers at least mean there's now some variety in the game. Player chosen powers were just awful because you only ever saw the most powerful option/s being used. You know what, I was pretty bored of dual Lash after the first 5 games, it was horribad having to put up with it for what, 5 years of always seeing the exact same pairing of CSM psychic powers?! (yay, here's Lash+Breath for the million'th time! It's so amazing that CSM's have 5-6 powers to choose from... oh wait a tick. )


As for Deny the Witch, outside of 2 armies is pretty avoidable with psychic shooting. 1/6 odds of an enemy unit nullifying your potential 4D6 hit-on-4's + 3D6 hit-on-3's with re-rolls/S6 shots is called balance.
Sure, Space Wolves & GK's especially are complete dicks to Daemons & Eldar psykers, but so what? One book is an edition behind and the other was moronically designed to roflstomp all over Daemons!

Libbies are avoidable - don't shoot anything within what, 6" of 'em and you're laughing. SitW is likewise avoidable - especially for Horrors who only have a "poor" 30" threat range and Ld10 for their tests.

The main way to 'fix' psykers would be to simply go full-tilt and bring back the entire Psychic Phase with casting & dispel dice and remove Deny the Witch entirely.
Add in an additional stipulation that you can't have more than 1 copy of a non-Primaris power and you instantly fix the spaming of key 'problem powers' like multiple Ironarm 'Nids/Nurgle MC's.

First of all.... good day! Pleasure to speak to you 626. Apologies. Popped in the High Elf argument and I remember your name. Anyways... Might I rudely ask something... I've always wanted to try out Fantasy. However my friends and my local group play 40k. So I missed the chance to play fantasy. However... from what I have heard fantasy has a literal turn just for magic and the spells there are much more influential and devestating correct? Also... how many mastery level 4s are there and how internally balanced are the spells? Apologies for the multitude of questions. I alas don't know very much about fantasy... so please understand every single little thing I say is based on personal opinion and only knowing 40k (and also I play Tzeentch. He is my guy. I'll use his models when I can even if not always the best unit).

So then my first question.... what makes it so that 1-2 specific psyker powers are any different than building an army of Thunder Hammer Storm Shield wielders, Deathstar units, etc. What makes it so that I must randomly roll for my psyker powers whilst others don't. And, if memory serves me, fantasy spells are influenced by winds of chaos. In 40k psykers simply will things to happen usually with more restricted focuses. And how does random poewrs make it any more variable? I play a nid player. He rolls on biomancy and that is about it. When I get my hands on divination, I pretty much roll on divination and if not that telepathy or biomancy. Pyromancy? I've never seen a single competitive list with any spell from anything other than these 3 psyker tables (Universal codeces wise).

Yet 1/6th is nothing to scoff at. Imagine your lasguns, meltagun, etc failing on a 1/6th. You have to go through a ld test which has a chance of failure. And then there is still a chance that the enemy will deny the witch. And so what about it being 4d6? Let us calculate the total price for that many shots. You mean nullifying a minimum (only 16 pink horrors and 1 hq with only the upgrades you mentioned) of 214 points? 214 points that approximately once per game (5 turns. Probably around 4-6 turns of shooting them depending on the deployment?) will do literally nothing but sit on their pants. And have to also pass a leadership test? Sure they will pass it most of the time but that doesn't deny there are 3 rolls that will make you fail to shoot a single shot. Also 4d6 shots seem awesome until we factor in the fact that this means you will get an average of 14 shots from your 16 troops! Yeah 3d6 adds (rounding up) 11 shots. So a total of 26 shots for 16 pink horrors and one herald. Now re-roll the failed to hits (which remind you requires another ld check). Now you must roll to wound (2+). Yeah it instant deaths T3 models. And I do confess AP4 is awesome. However AP4 means nothing to about half of the game and the ones that fear it tend to bring cover to the battlefield which nullifies the terror of AP4. But wait! There is more. It is Soul Blaze. Which is one of the most irritating things to track he he. And then the most disliked part, warpflame. Autogive those MCs a FNP, upgrade those Plague Marine's FNP, give those Marines FNP, and heck even give IG FNP! Sure it kills d3 when they fail it but when more than half the game has a 2/3 chance of passing the test.... eeeeeh.....

I do agree that these codeces are old.... however it does not deny the fact that they will be a thorn in psyker sides for a long time to come.

Actually, if memory serves me.... Libbies have a field of 12" I believe. I admit SitW is relatively avoidable but can't you have flying SitW? That can get to you by turn one? Also, if you get stuck within that range it becomes a half percent chance of failing even at a ld of 10.

Now I agree with adding the Psychic Phase! It would reduce the chances of players forgetting when to trigger it and I would love to have magic battles. The only problem I can see is... I presume there are more armies that have 0 psykers of their own. Perhaps give them ways to counter it? Not quite sure.... My gripe with the current Deny the Witch is that it makes it so offensive psyker spells aren't really worth it unless they can do massive amounts of devestation. In reality, spells like Flickering Fire of Tzeentch do just about as much damage as Tau Firewarriors with no upgrades.

Now onto another rule that I forgot... CHAMPIONS OF CHAOS!
Good lord this is one of the worst invented special rules I know of. Want to make your juggerlord worthless? Watch as it mutates into a DP or Spawn! Then you have a random table that gives you good, okay, or even worthless abilities whilst forcing you to declare challenges whenever possible always giving the enemy an advantage (and often making you lose your higher leadership that you needed to make up for the lack of cheesy And they Shall Know no Fear)

 Troike wrote:

 Hurley wrote:

 Troike wrote:
The entire Faith system for the SoB. Doesn't scale at all, really hamstrings the army in higher point games. The randomness of it is also pretty dumb. Why would the faith of an army of fanatics be random?


Apparently it used to be better before, with SoB units generating faith and faith carrying over through turns. Not too familiar with it though, since I wasn't playing at the time.

Matt Ward hates.. HATES! sisters i think he was raped by a very militant nun at some point in his life. he is the reason for the faith points being strange, or at least so i'm told. also it's hard to deny this when he put that bit in the Grey Knights book.

Edit: it seems i'm one of the few with a hard copy of the old book. it was pretty cool if you ask me. God only knows why they did what they did.

It was apparently Cruddance who wrote the rules, actually. Ward just stuck to the fluff (and did an allright job of it, IMO).

And personally, I'm not so disappointed in the Bloodtide these days. It (perhaps unintentionally) says that some Sisters are pure enough to be more uncorruptible than even the Grey Knights.

Ulcis wrote:

 Troike wrote:
The entire Faith system for the SoB. Doesn't scale at all, really hamstrings the army in higher point games. The randomness of it is also pretty dumb. Why would the faith of an army of fanatics be random?


Apparently it used to be better before, with SoB units generating faith and faith carrying over through turns. Not too familiar with it though, since I wasn't playing at the time.

I've got a PDF of the old Witchhunters codex, from back when GW had it up for free download on their site, along with Daemonhunters (unfortunately, both were removed when the Grey Knights codex came out, and they moved Kkaramazov over to the GK).

Faith points were generated by 'Faithful' units. Cannoness added 2, the lesser version added 1, etc. Each BSS gave 1 too. Was a far better system, which scaled with the size of the army. Oh, yeah, and Celestine added 3 points.

That sounds pretty nice. Hopefully we'll get something like that when a new SoB codex drops, whenever that may be...

ugh Cruddance is almost as bad as ward IMO.

ATSKNF is basically 40k on Training Wheels.

*sigh*, the perks of being a marine player shall be forever denied to me...

Iranna.

The WS to-hit table.

You can be WS10 vs WS1 and still not hit any better than WS2.

Even getting hit on a 5+ requires a HUGE gap in skill. Beyond WS5 there's almost no point (except hitting others characters with lower WS on a 3+).

Ah yes.... the WS table. Good gosh that thing is terrible in comparison to the bs table! Ha ha.

People have said this many times over the years, but saves work in deeply weird ways.

Guardsmen are just as likely to kill a Terminator if it's nighttime and the Terminator's foot is just barely visible sticking out behind a massive wall as they are if it's broad daylight and the Terminator is standing in an open field. The interaction between cover and armor saves means that sometimes you'd rather have Scatter Lasers than Reaper Launchers when shooting Marines.

The interaction between AP and armor saves creates these strange situations where the most cost-effective guns to use against 2+ armor saves are AP1/AP2 and AP5+. It feels really weird to not want to "waste" your armor-penetrating rockets on some heavily-armored thing because your anti-horde weapons are much more efficient.

I'm not saying we should immediately move to let models take all of their saves or that we should go back to armor save modifiers; I'm just saying that these rules could be better.

The WS table looks just fine from where I'm sitting... I like being able to actually hit stuff on a 5+. Yay Tau and their average army WS of 2!

pantsonhead wrote:
People have said this many times over the years, but saves work in deeply weird ways.

Guardsmen are just as likely to kill a Terminator if it's nighttime and the Terminator's foot is just barely visible sticking out behind a massive wall as they are if it's broad daylight and the Terminator is standing in an open field. The interaction between cover and armor saves means that sometimes you'd rather have Scatter Lasers than Reaper Launchers when shooting Marines.

The interaction between AP and armor saves creates these strange situations where the most cost-effective guns to use against 2+ armor saves are AP1/AP2 and AP5+. It feels really weird to not want to "waste" your armor-penetrating rockets on some heavily-armored thing because your anti-horde weapons are much more efficient.

I'm not saying we should immediately move to let models take all of their saves or that we should go back to armor save modifiers; I'm just saying that these rules could be better.

Back in 2e, your chances of killing a Hammernator in cover with a lasgun were "never".

 Sephyr wrote:

pantsonhead wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Fear needs work. Half the armies in the game being immune to a USR, is stupid.

It'd be nice it ATSKNF just gave a reroll against fear, instead of being immune. The only thing that should be immune to fear, is Fearless.

And They Shall Know Somewhat Less Fear?

And They Shall Know That Warpspawn Is a Big Deal And Regroup For The Moment.

And They Shall Know Not The Meaning Of Half The Rules In The Rulebook..


Now to seriousness. My biggest gripes so far are random charge and the still derptastic WS table. High BS? BEST AWESOME NEVER MISS I AM THE TWIN LINKED ALL THE TIME HAHAHAHA. High WS? Ok... am I 2x your WS? your chance to hit me reduces slightly. My chance to hit you... changes not. A high WS should seriously matter more. Hey Joe the lone guardsman! you can totally go up and poke the ultimate evil masochistic space elf gladiator, whom is said to be able to dodge a hit from all but the best opponents in the entire galaxy! No seriously, you have a 1/3 chance at worst to do so!! Go poke her with your bayonet.

 dementedwombat wrote:
The WS table looks just fine from where I'm sitting... I like being able to actually hit stuff on a 5+. Yay Tau and their average army WS of 2!

I guess it is something that you can only see when you look at it from army's with high WS characters, DE's Lelith for example is really all about her WS9ness, that we pay quite a lot of points for, yet she has the same chance at hitting a guy who probably has trouble holding a sword straight(WS1) and a superhuman spess mahren(WS4), I mean, really? The only "advantage" of her WS9 is that even those superhuman spess mahrens have trouble hitting her, but at the same time, that superhuman has the same chance at hitting as a WS1 Herpity Derpity, where is the sense in that?

I don't understand the need to give pure shooting unit a chance in assault, it's not like assault units haven't already paid the price of having endure a turn or 2 of shooting without much ability to do anything in return, as well as possibly paying quite a hefty amount of points to make that early turn assault possible(buying assault vehicles, etc..).

Night fighting: it shouldn't be very common.

It's ridiculous: apparently almost every battle in the 40k universe is fought either at night or just before night. It's terrible for military operations and it ruins a long-range strategy. In my opinion a single night fighting roll should be made on turn one: on a 6 it is night fighting. It makes more sense than half of battles being at night, and the portion only increases at turn five.

What are you talking about man? Attacks have been staged at night since people have been grabbing sticks and hitting each other with them, and it's only gotten more prevalent since the rise of firearms. Night is especially important in small scale engagements like those portrayed in 40k.

If anything, it should be "on a 6 it is *not* night fighting"

 Dakkamite wrote:
What are you talking about man? Attacks have been staged at night since people have been grabbing sticks and hitting each other with them, and it's only gotten more prevalent since the rise of firearms. Night is especially important in small scale engagements like those portrayed in 40k.

If anything, it should be "on a 6 it is *not* night fighting"

Small Scale
Warhammer 40K.. lol
i agree though night fighting is pretty much correct to what i feel it should be.

I agree nightfighting sounds about right.

A battle that starts at the break of dawn or is ending late in the twilight just feels..... right.

Even though I play Tau, I agree the WS chart is a bit wonky. Under no circumstance should I hit Space Marines on a bloody 4+ in Fisticuffs.

Get rid of challenges or make some armys less susceptible to them. Random charge distances are unnecessary. Removing casualties from the front is also lame. I see where they were going with that one, but it really cripples some armys. This edition is far too shooty.

Removing casualties from the front is one of the things I like, it's just right and makes sense, really.

I both get it and don't. The previous edition of feth you I'm taking units from the back or the most worthless ones meant the enemy could shove their most expensive units in the front and laugh at the enemy. It let a lot of cheap tactics be used when it didn't make sense (plus how did the guy with the plasma gun always somehow survive being shot at whilst the boltergunners all died first?)

However removing it from the front brings up the same gripe with me. It doesn't make sense! So you mean to tell me the closest guy ALWAYS gets killed? Even when a flamethrower blasts a line through a squad, even when a missile smashes right into a blob of 3 dudes, etc etc, somehow the guy that didn't even get hit by the flamethrower dies? And why is it that the soldiers always aim for the closest guy? Along with this, I think it further impedes assault armies. Shooty armies only have to worry about their valuable guns being taken out. Assault units have to worry about their great assault weapons being killed but also how even if they move 6" it is very much a possibility that they can lose 5" just due to shooting. I've literally seen games where ork tides fought Tau and never advanced an inch. And if every army gets overwatch to represent advancing forwards, why not let me remove models from random points of my army (the back) to represent them advancing forwards. Finally, and this is more of just a style thing... I hate how now I always have to shove the other CSM/SM/Daemon grunts in front of my commander. 40k is a world where these dudes lead by example but in the game putting them in the front is begging for them to be slaughtered.

Some other rules that I find obnoxious are challenges.

FInally, MC, and cover saves, and ruins altogether. Draw a line to MC if it runs through anything else then cover save. Simple and fine yet it really doesn't make sense. We have a nid player that makes mobile gaunt meatshields give his MC a cover save for intervening models. Which is a rather large problem considering the fact that this means our battlehardened marines are too stubborn to aim just a bit higher and literally not even have to worry about missing a shot at the MC. Ruins is just as odd. Somehow a MC cannot fight in higher floors even when their models are so tall they can stand up to the 3rd-4th floor or are reality defying warp monstrosities that laugh at physics. Now laugh as you hide in the ruins and shoot the guys that have little to no dakka and cannot hit you in cc

pantsonhead wrote:
People have said this many times over the years, but saves work in deeply weird ways.

Back in 2nd ed, it worked very differently. Cover reduced your BS, so reduced your chance to hit to begin with. AP reduced your save rather than the yes/no mechanic we have now... and Invulnerable saves worked more or less the same, but weren't called Invulnerables yet and only came as special rules or wargear, so they were much less common.
Terminators still had a 3+... but on two dice. So they still had a chance to save against weapons as strong as even lascannons, which were a whopping -6 AP (enough to knock out anything else bar Invulnerables).

This made more sense - but trying to apply it to the sizes of armies we have now would just make things take way too long. You'd have to split wound pools according to each weapon and *then again* for mixed saves if it applied... a lot of the time you'd be taking saves individually. It was one of the biggest changes moving from 2nd to 3rd ed, and all things considered I'm kind of glad about it.

I think invulnerable saves and fnp should be switched, where fnp is the save you take when armour is negated and invulnerable is always taken on unsaved wounds

kingleir wrote:
I think invulnerable saves and fnp should be switched, where fnp is the save you take when armour is negated and invulnerable is always taken on unsaved wounds

Blergh! NO. You've not thought that through. That would shift the balance entirely the wrong way - already nerfed units like Blood Angels and Nurgle get weaker, and beatsticks that are tough enough already like Draigo and Hammernators become nigh on unkillable.

WS should grant rerolls depending on stats.

Higher WS grants Re-rolls to hits, if your lower WS, you re-roll successful hits.

It can still be 3+ and 5+, but at least show some of that skill!

Phaeron upgrade.

I mean, really.

I really like the idea of having a WS re-roll say your guy is 3 better on WS he gets a re-roll of 5+. 4 better take a 4+ anything over that why not a 3+? I think that makes a good deal of sense.

I always wondered why the To Hit chart wasn't modified to extend from 2+ to hit through 6's to hit. Surely it could be done and people would soon enough learn the rubric to figure it quickly (currently over double your Ws is 5+, so presumably over three times your Ws could be 6's?)

One rule that doesnt make any kind of sense is shooting at walkers.

They have rear armour, usually 10. So shooting them from behind makes them pretty easy to kill.

assault them, and they turn around to face you, and you have to deal with their front armour.

Why can they turn around in the enemy turn, but ONLY if they're assaulted, just so they can overwatch and fight back?

They hadn't thought of making every dreadnoughts/walkers into MC when they wrote those rules.

Dragonzord wrote:
One rule that doesnt make any kind of sense is shooting at walkers.

They have rear armour, usually 10. So shooting them from behind makes them pretty easy to kill.

assault them, and they turn around to face you, and you have to deal with their front armour.

Why can they turn around in the enemy turn, but ONLY if they're assaulted, just so they can overwatch and fight back?

Edit: MY GOD EMPERA IM SEROUSLY GOING BLIND TODAY AND CANT READ PROPERLY

 StarTrotter wrote:
Ah yes.... the WS table. Good gosh that thing is terrible in comparison to the bs table! Ha ha.

Give the whole recent IT'S A SHOOTING GAME SUCK IT shift, I'm half glad they didn't just make all melee attacks hit on a 4+ across the board and ditched the WS trait entirely.

I remember when some friends and I ran test games with the 'leaked' 6th edition book that had a WS table that actually went from 2+ to 6+ and it was immensely fun.