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How much BLoS are you guys even playing with? It shouldn't be an issue. Deepstrike or outflank some shooty mans into its butthole and be done with it!

Then let me Propose my way of doing it.
First shot is fired (gain all cover saves) if target is not within LOS 4+ cover 3+ if they go to ground.
First shot is fired, if it deviates it deviates the distance from the target. The rest of the shots roll deviation die and only move from where the previous one hit, if at any time it goes off the table, that shot and any that follow are gone.

Also, the rules themselves are not clear as to how to do this and it CAN be interpreted this way.

but how do you justify a cover save against a "high-trajectory" weapon like Barrage? It's kind of the point of the rule.

I don't justify, I just say, if "duck and cover" would save me from a nuke, than, shooting at something you can't see can duck and cover.

But Duck and Cover won't save you from a nuke, that was just morale-raising propaganda. :p

It could be Propaganda, then again it might not be - I've never had a nuke dropped on me. All silliness aside. it doesn't have to make sense or even have a valid reason as to why. It just has to work for gameplay sake. if something is over powered, that needs to be corrected

If everything in 40k did that, Orks would never have to take a leadership test and if their warboss was killed, they would rally. Also they would merge smaller groups into larger ones.
why on earth would any Ork stop fighting if they didn't have to. That's all they want to do.

 Sleg wrote:
It could be Propaganda, then again it might not be - I've never had a nuke dropped on me. All silliness aside. it doesn't have to make sense or even have a valid reason as to why. It just has to work for gameplay sake. if something is over powered, that needs to be corrected

If everything in 40k did that, Orks would never have to take a leadership test and if their warboss was killed, they would rally. Also they would merge smaller groups into larger ones.
why on earth would any Ork stop fighting if they didn't have to. That's all they want to do.

It is propaganda, all hiding under a desk in the face of a nuke would accomplish would be you leaving your shadow etched into the ground instead of leaving no trace.

Thank you Kain, But will that really happen? - sorry can't help myself.
First, this is an Artillery unit and it's not launching a Nuke. Second the artillery unit is firing without a spotter in the field to mark targets. Third, this is a game - things do not have to make sense.
Otherwise all psychic attacks against Demons would do nothing. If the SAG opens up a portal to the warp, the demons would just bring down more friends instead of getting sucked into it. Tyranids would just dig tunnels under ground and slowly suck down the units they want to kill. Why would they ever do a face to face.
The imprirum, wouldn't send in troops they would just blow up the planets that are infested by aliens - if they have an outpost there, they would just Kill them as well.

Why is it so difficult to believe that units would get their cover from a Barrage?

because they don't. period.

Unless you're hiding under the one in a million desk, lol. A church wall still stands about 6' away from where the Hiroshima bomb detonated. Everything around it? Rubble. That one wall? Untouched.

Sleg, Orks used to be able to do just that - the Mob Up rule meant that if an Ork unit fled into another Ork unit, they joined it.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
because they don't. period.

That has to be the worst, retort for changing the rules I've ever heard. That would be like me say the solution to the Barrage problem is to take Barrage completely out of the game.
Any game I play, we have the special rule, no barrage, it just a template weapon, you have to have both range and LOS to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Sleg, Orks used to be able to do just that - the Mob Up rule meant that if an Ork unit fled into another Ork unit, they joined it.

I know and I wish they brought "Mob Up" back. Along with all the random chaos they stripped out. Long range for grot troops. The Freebooter army which have become useless Flash Gitz (basically just taking up space in the Ork codex) or just to have the Blood Axes take units from the other codex's. I used to play Ork and didn't even break a sweat whn over half my force was killed. Now I worry everytime, my Ork Boyz lose a figure. Now we have no battle brothers, the codex is so old that you have to make up new rules so it will work with 6th and don't get me started with how unhelpful the GW errta/FAQ is.

Get me into the dev team and I promise you I will fix all that, lol.

I want the old rules for Lootas back - buy weapons from other codices and on a roll of 1 you hit your own unit. Nothing better than 4 Plasma Cannon Lootas wiping out their entire squad....

The only real issue with barrage weapons is the ability to "snipe", which is a byproduct of the general wound allocation rules. Aside from that, barrage weapons aren't super common, the only armies that can field barrage weapons in any big way are Eldar, Imperial Guard, and, oddly enough, Orks. While they can be devastating to infantry, that's also the point.

Most barrage weapon toting units also generally have some sort of major weakness. Artillery tanks usually have crappy armor (the Eldar tank is the only exclusion) while "Artillery"-unit-type units have crappy leadership and are effectivelly auto-killed in close combat by most things.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The only real issue with barrage weapons is the ability to "snipe", which is a byproduct of the general wound allocation rules. Aside from that, barrage weapons aren't super common, the only armies that can field barrage weapons in any big way are Eldar, Imperial Guard, and, oddly enough, Orks. While they can be devastating to infantry, that's also the point.

Most barrage weapon toting units also generally have some sort of major weakness. Artillery tanks usually have crappy armor (the Eldar tank is the only exclusion) while "Artillery"-unit-type units have crappy leadership and are effectivelly auto-killed in close combat by most things.

Don't forget the Tyranids and our ability to spam Biovores.

Right, lol forgot about that, I can't recall the last time I saw a Biovore used so I forgot about them

 Sleg wrote:
Then let me Propose my way of doing it.
First shot is fired (gain all cover saves) if target is not within LOS 4+ cover 3+ if they go to ground.
First shot is fired, if it deviates it deviates the distance from the target. The rest of the shots roll deviation die and only move from where the previous one hit, if at any time it goes off the table, that shot and any that follow are gone.

Also, the rules themselves are not clear as to how to do this and it CAN be interpreted this way.

What about; "if firing without LOS the shot always scatters, even if a HIT is rolled"

Makes sense to me. They're firing blind after all.

doean't it scatter on a HIT already?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
doean't it scatter on a HIT already?

Sure does. Dakkamite, you seem to have a very soft grasp of the barrage rules, maybe next time something tickles you the wrong way check how it actually works before going on a rant about it?

is it time to lock this now?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Right, lol forgot about that, I can't recall the last time I saw a Biovore used so I forgot about them

Biovores are so useful for killing cover camping Tau, Necrons, and Eldar that it's simply amazing.

 Kain wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Right, lol forgot about that, I can't recall the last time I saw a Biovore used so I forgot about them

Biovores are so useful for killing cover camping Tau, Necrons, and Eldar that it's simply amazing.

They are useful for killing directional-cover camping models (and only certain kinds of models) from those armies. Not area terrain.

Could someone tell me where the rulebook says that?

I'm looking at the Barrage entry on p.34.

"when firing indirectly, the BS of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance: unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2d6"

Damn I left mine at my parent's house. Well if I'm wrong I'll happily admit it and apologize for calling you on an error on my part.

 motyak wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Right, lol forgot about that, I can't recall the last time I saw a Biovore used so I forgot about them

Biovores are so useful for killing cover camping Tau, Necrons, and Eldar that it's simply amazing.

They are useful for killing directional-cover camping models (and only certain kinds of models) from those armies. Not area terrain.

Given that everyone has an aegis, taking it away by gutting their troops lets my flyrants run freely.

yup... the little arrow on the HIT side does nothing. hmmm...

out of all the guys I play regularly, I see barrage so infrequently I thought it was still part of the rule.

Either way, the Barrage rule is fine. If you are playing against Barrage weapons, spread out and don't rely on cover. It's easier to modify one's tactics than the rules.

The truth is after everything said, Barrage seems like a cheap way to eliminate expensive models with no backlash or downside, scattering seems like a benefit, instead of a hinderance and that should always hinder the effectiveness of a template weapon. with the exception of a flamer template, the blast always allowed for cover saves. With the exception of barrage no other blast template weapon has ignores cover. Cover saves are determine by where the hole is, KFF would be null because of the 6 inch rule, Exhaust Cloud will still provide get cover even if the hole is directly over the biker, and if the hole is inside the ADL, they do not get cover from it. If the Models go to ground, they still get their +1 cover.

What makes barrage different? I thought it was only that the second shot flips the template in the direction of the scatter die. According to the rules that's all it seems to do.
It doesn't say you go back to the target. If the first shot scatters off the target - the second shot hits in the same place as the first, if that's a miss it's a miss. If there is a 3rd shot it flips in the direction of the scatter die, starting from the 2nd shot. That's how I still read it. it never goes back to the original target, unless the die never scatters.

 Sleg wrote:
The truth is after everything said, Barrage seems like a cheap way to eliminate expensive models with no backlash or downside, scattering seems like a benefit, instead of a hinderance and that should always hinder the effectiveness of a template weapon.

I don't see how it's a benefit to have your S9 AP3 large blast drift off that unit of space marines, but hey. Or your S moderate AP moderate blast drift off some Eldar Guardians.

 Sleg wrote:
with the exception of a flamer template, the blast always allowed for cover saves. With the exception of barrage no other blast template weapon has ignores cover.

They don't ignore cover, they ignore directional cover. That's a huge difference. Trees shield you just as well as they always have.

The Benefit is that if the shot scatters and you have 3 models, they all scatter over their target, instead of following the first shot. Believe me it a huge Benefit against models behind an ADL. If your first shot scatters away, your second or 3rd shot wont.That's a huge benefit.

I don't quite understand your point. Are you saying in say a squad of three barrage weapons, when the first shot scatters off and lands on three models, the rest of the shots will scatter onto these models as well, and that if your first shot scatters away your second two won't?