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 LValx wrote:
HWTs are pretty bad. Too much Str.6+ in the game right now. SWSs are decent if you stick em in Vendettas.

I'd keep your blobs pretty plain and gear them towards anti-infantry to make use of Lasguns. Despite what Peregrine says, 50+ Lasguns can do some damage to other infantry units, including MCs.

Firing 50 lasguns at a Tervigon assuming FRFSRF at rapid fire range (let's ignore that piling in this many guardsmen into 12' of a tervigon would probably be an incredibly rare coincidence) gets you 150 shots, of which 75 hit, of these only a sixth wound so 12 or so wounds. Of these only four pass the armor save, and if it has FNP for any reason (catalyst, or endurance) you only get roughly three wounds on it. You must feel very accomplished to use over three hundred points to do so little. Oh and if it has endurance and/or regeneration those few wounds you did get are going to get rolled away while the Nidzilla player giggles.

And because you killed nothing, you get to chew on a clusterspine while an unholy mass of fleshborer rounds eat your guardsmen.

Against a Riptide with stim injectors you only get a grand total of roughly one and a half wounds past everything. Against the Wraithknight you get no wounds because guardsmen can't wound T8 you silly man.

 LordHamshire wrote:
Couldn't I use the points I would've spent on such upgrades to get MORE Vendettas?

No. Assuming you take at least a 5-point weapon in every special weapon slot (and you're insane if you don't) you'd have to take 26 flamers/grenade launchers instead of melta guns to pay for even a single Vendetta. IOW, if you play an infantry-heavy list and take nothing but the cheapest and least effective special weapons you might be able to buy an extra Vendetta. And that single extra Vendetta will not be anywhere near as effective as the 26 melta guns.

Also, once you take more than three Vendettas you have problems with the squadron rules (everyone has to shoot the same target) and trying to maneuver that many flyers without interfering with each other. So "just take more Vendettas" is not an unlimited solution.

 greyknight12 wrote:
1 lasgun will put 0.027 wounds on a terminator and 0.054 wounds on a space marine, on average (24")
1 plasma gun will put 0.28 wounds on a terminator and 0.42 wounds on a space marine, on average (24")

Against terminators 1 plasma gun=10 lasguns and against space marines 1 plasma gun =7.78 lasguns

Mathhammer! I love it, because it shows how awesome things are.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LordHamshire wrote:
Couldn't I use the points I would've spent on such upgrades to get MORE Vendettas?

No. Assuming you take at least a 5-point weapon in every special weapon slot (and you're insane if you don't) you'd have to take 26 flamers/grenade launchers instead of melta guns to pay for even a single Vendetta. IOW, if you play an infantry-heavy list and take nothing but the cheapest and least effective special weapons you might be able to buy an extra Vendetta. And that single extra Vendetta will not be anywhere near as effective as the 26 melta guns.

Also, once you take more than three Vendettas you have problems with the squadron rules (everyone has to shoot the same target) and trying to maneuver that many flyers without interfering with each other. So "just take more Vendettas" is not an unlimited solution.

Lol, I suppose that solution is getting perhaps a bit annoying. I think I gotta do some science and play test some of these special weapons.

special and heavy weapons for imperial guard are a necessity. Autocannons are preferential to heavy bolters due to the fact that they are stronger and hit at a longer range... and heavy bolters are preferential for their weight of fire. even then, if you are moving your heavy weapon teams, i regret to inform you that you are doing something inherently wrong. By and large, you want to keep your heavy weapons out of your infantry sections, unless said infantry section also has 3 special weapons and intends to spend the entire game sitting on an objective. No objectives? then sit them in the heaviest piece of cover you can, and protect it with a squad or two of expendables.

Flamers and grenade launchers are great assault weapons, except, IG suck at assault. I use grenade launchers as mobile fire-support. Would not give a line-squad any flamers, unless I mobbed them to get more into squads. 3 flamers in a vet squad? that's an ungodly amount of wounds and armor saves you are forcing your opponent to roll... Imperial guard are strength 3 at base, and their armor is expensive, and always end up being bolt-magnets since it's the heaviest thing on the field--special and heavy weapons are necessary. Sentinels can pick up the role of heavy weapons teams, but I prefer keeping them in reserves or side-lines so that i have mobile units that can do heavy shooting... 3x3 multilaser sentinels sounds like crap, because, vendettas (apparantly......), except 1 vendetta..... multiple sentinels... If you are aiming for that ultimate cheapo list, then you want weight of numbers, so you'll want more sentinels instead.

Other assets, like priests and commisars, are very important as well and let your special weapons survive longer. If you have a vet squad with 3 flamers, you probably should put a priest in to maximize the squad's effectiveness when you get in on that melee. Commissars are important for doing heavy lifting in throw-away squads, so that they really do fight and die to the last man, earning your shooters another turn of shooting.

And most flyers out there are 11-12 AV. For flying monsters, really all you gotta do is hit. A lasgun that hits has a chance of grounding a Bloodthirster. Don't even try to conceptualize how that would look

It's like shining a laser pointer in somebody's eye, plain and simple. Markerlights do the same thing.

 poda_t wrote:
x3 multilaser sentinels sounds like crap, because, vendettas (apparantly......), except 1 vendetta..... multiple sentinels... If you are aiming for that ultimate cheapo list, then you want weight of numbers, so you'll want more sentinels instead.

No, you want Vendettas. A single Vendetta out-guns three Sentinels, is more durable, (usually) costs fewer points, and is a transport. The "weight of numbers" provided by the Sentinels is an illusion, putting lots of models on the table is not the same as having genuine weight of numbers.


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 Gyrtop wrote:
It's like shining a laser pointer in somebody's eye, plain and simple. Markerlights do the same thing.

To be fair, the markerlight at least is a powerful laser guidance system capable of marking a target for an incoming missile that has to see it from miles away. That's certainly a lot more than a lasgun is doing.

One interesting note is that large squads, especially blobs, should take at least one weapon with range >24" to extend their "danger zone" for shooting. One of my friends frequently fields 40-man blobs with one sniper rifle in order to allow his lasguns (and sometimes plasmas) to kill enemies over 24" away.

LordHamshire wrote:Couldn't I use the points I would've spent on such upgrades to get MORE Vendettas?

Good luck. If you have 7 squads that have empty heavy weapons slots (which you will, if you're playing foot guard), you could spend those points on a vehicle that shows up late, dodges interceptor fire, throws down two hits, or maybe four, and then has to fly off the board, or turn away towards an angle without worthwhile targets. Or, you could get 4 hits per turn starting turn 1, and on 65 infantrymen that can't be wiped out by a single vehicle destroyed result.

Weapon upgrades are the most efficient way of getting more killing power into your list, which means, in this case, you can cram in more killing power over all.

LordHamshire wrote:I'm back to the question of why would a infantry squad waste shots on a vehicle?

What else are those infantry squads doing for the first few turns of the game?

I'd much rather they do some damage and fish for first blood than doing nothing.

 Kingsley wrote:
One interesting note is that large squads, especially blobs, should take at least one weapon with range >24" to extend their "danger zone" for shooting. One of my friends frequently fields 40-man blobs with one sniper rifle in order to allow his lasguns (and sometimes plasmas) to kill enemies over 24" away.

Don't waste a plasmagun slot on a sniper rifle to do that. Spend 10 points for an autocannon so you can keep all five plasma guns.

Appreciate what you got!
I play csm without ig ally.I wish my cultist can carry meltaguns, plasmaguns, ac,ml, lc etc... Get special commands, divide into platoons, etc...

I would love to spend 50pts for a bag of lasguns instead of auto pistols. Imperial guardsmen are so much more flexibly, versitle and specialized.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
One interesting note is that large squads, especially blobs, should take at least one weapon with range >24" to extend their "danger zone" for shooting. One of my friends frequently fields 40-man blobs with one sniper rifle in order to allow his lasguns (and sometimes plasmas) to kill enemies over 24" away.

Don't waste a plasmagun slot on a sniper rifle to do that. Spend 10 points for an autocannon so you can keep all five plasma guns.

So in an official tourney, I can have a squad of 40 ig guards man with atleast 1 heavy weapon with a ac range 48" and all the other 24" lasgun gets to reach out 48" and wound the enemy?

That does not sound right and I do not believe gw intended that to be the rule even if they wrote it as so.

If ig gets to do that then why cant the csm squad with 1 ac cannot do it like wise?

 Filch wrote:
So in an official tourney, I can have a squad of 40 ig guards man with atleast 1 heavy weapon with a ac range 48" and all the other 24" lasgun gets to reach out 48" and wound the enemy?

That's exactly how it works.

If ig gets to do that then why cant the csm squad with 1 ac cannot do it like wise?

CSM can do it just like everyone else can.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Filch wrote:
So in an official tourney, I can have a squad of 40 ig guards man with atleast 1 heavy weapon with a ac range 48" and all the other 24" lasgun gets to reach out 48" and wound the enemy?

That's exactly how it works.

If ig gets to do that then why cant the csm squad with 1 ac cannot do it like wise?

CSM can do it just like everyone else can.

What is this madness?! The way I'm reading Kingsley's post, theoretically you could have a weapon that has a 48" range in your squad and suddenly all your shorter range weapons have 48" range?!

 Wilytank wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Filch wrote:
So in an official tourney, I can have a squad of 40 ig guards man with atleast 1 heavy weapon with a ac range 48" and all the other 24" lasgun gets to reach out 48" and wound the enemy?

That's exactly how it works.

If ig gets to do that then why cant the csm squad with 1 ac cannot do it like wise?

CSM can do it just like everyone else can.

What is this madness?! The way I'm reading Kingsley's post, theoretically you could have a weapon that has a 48" range in your squad and suddenly all your shorter range weapons have 48" range?!

no..... Lastguns remain 24" range weapons, and the AC reamains 48 inches. Anything outside of range of 24" sadly, autmoatically misses, irresspective of the fact that there really could be 45 lasguns aiming at the exact same point of space, the lasguns hit a magick wall at the 48 inch range, and the laser beam misteriously and forever disspates. No weapon may fire past the indicated range, ever, under any circumstances.
I mean, you can have a squad of las-gunners fire at a target 60 inches away down the length of the board. But that would be stupid. Very stupid. As they would automatically miss when they could have been running, or shooting the squad of khorne berzerkers 3 inches from base contact.
Let's say I had a vet squad with AC and 3 sniper rifles. That heavy weapon and 3 sniper rifles will shoot up to 48 inches. The rest of the squad--assuming they haven't been given shotguns--can only shoot up to a maximum of 24 inches, as indicated in the lasgun profile. Now let's add ironhand straken and his heavy bolter. He gets to shoot up to 36, AC and snipers up to 48, and the rest of the guardsmen can only hit anything within 24 inches, otherwise they automatically miss.

EDIT:
i stand corrected. You cannot shoot at anything that is beyond your maximum range. However. I direct you to page 12 of the dark vengeance rulebook for clarification. Specifically, the last paragraph on the page.

How do people even think it is possible to believe that a squad with atleast 2 different gun ranges that the shorter range gun gets to shoot as far as the long range one? It is a gross misinterpretation and manipulation of the fundamental rules. I really do not like players especially in M:tg who lawyer the rules to the point that they cheat.

Filch, I think you may be misunderstanding. Each weapon still has to check range to see whether it's eligible to roll to hit. Adding a longer ranged weapon to the squad doesn't remove this restriction. Your lasguns won't do anything if they're not within range of at least one eligible target.

However, the 6th edition BRB FAQ adds an additional restriction -- you can no longer allocate wounds to targets that aren't within range of at least one of the firing unit's guns. If only one enemy model is within range of your unit's guns, that's all you get to kill. But since you measure relative to the range of the entire unit, a longer ranged gun will help you circumvent this restriction.

This is perhaps unfortunate, but it's also inevitable. When you roll to wound, you do it simultaneously, with all weapons. Any successful rolls go into the same wound pool. By the time you've rolled saves, there's no way to associate a given unsaved wound to the range of the weapon that inflicted it. All you can do is check that the model is within range of at least one weapon in the squad.

The only way to fix this would be to create a separate wound pool for each weapon type, checking saves for each one at a time. Doing this would be cumbersome, complicated, and usually unnecessary -- but you'd never know until you reached the allocation step. So we're left with the present circumstances.

Do note that in 5th edition and early 6th, you didn't even need the additional weapon. There was no check for range during wound allocation. Flamers would regularly kill targets well beyond their actual weapon range. Just ask the burnaboyz.

That makes no sense what so ever..48 inch range lasguns?

48 inch range laspistols then?

How about a 48 inch range krak 'nade then?

Please read my post in its entirety. A heavy weapon does not remove the requirement that a model check range before rolling to hit. It only alleviates issues relating to wound allocation -- an entirely separate test which didn't even exist in 5th or the start of 6th edition.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
That makes no sense what so ever..48 inch range lasguns?

48 inch range laspistols then?

How about a 48 inch range krak 'nade then?

Well as supersonic units travel 36' inches we can deduce that a 48 inch krak 'nade is traveling at least mach 1.3, meaning that the guardsman tossing it has a throwing arm strong enough to fold Vin Diesel up like a pretzel.

 LordHamshire wrote:

Nope. I'm a huge fan of Autocannons this edition in my blobs. Cheap, effective, and with orders/prescience can drop most flyers/monsters.

Wouldn't you rather a Heavy Bolter than an Autocannon? I mean I don't think I'm a fan of either, but then at least you would have more chances at snap shots.

I just can't see my infantry squad shooting at something heavier than infantry. Wouldn't I just save my points for some Vendettas to do that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
The only thing I put in my infantry blobs is Guardsmen with flamers/meltas/plasmas, grenade launchers just do a worse job than meltas and plasmas, when you could just spend that extra 5pts for a much better weapon. I usually use flamers or plasmas, depending on what I'm going up against, and I usually keep my Heavy Weapons out of my blobs and whack them in Command Squads, because they have a better BS and I can give them carapace armour, so they're less likely to die.. However, this may be because I field an Armoured Company consisting of loadsa' Russes, Vendettas, Chimeras and a single blob of minimal infantry to take objectives..

I can't see why people like plasma guns. It's only a couple shots, and 3x the cost of a grenade launcher.

That AP2 just helps me to monster terminators and stuff, and it's 2 shots (1 more than the GL..) So for 3x the cost of the GL, you're getting S7 AP2 instead of S6 AP4 (who even has a 4+ save nowadays anyway??) and 1 more shot ;D Take Veterans with plasguns and Carapace Armour, so worth it ^_^

 Kain wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
That makes no sense what so ever..48 inch range lasguns?

48 inch range laspistols then?

How about a 48 inch range krak 'nade then?

Well as supersonic units travel 36' inches we can deduce that a 48 inch krak 'nade is traveling at least mach 1.3, meaning that the guardsman tossing it has a throwing arm strong enough to fold Vin Diesel up like a pretzel.

You, sir, have just made my once slow boring day at work a very laughter-filled one. For that, you have my applause *claps*

 Kain wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
That makes no sense what so ever..48 inch range lasguns?

48 inch range laspistols then?

How about a 48 inch range krak 'nade then?

Well as supersonic units travel 36' inches we can deduce that a 48 inch krak 'nade is traveling at least mach 1.3, meaning that the guardsman tossing it has a throwing arm strong enough to fold Vin Diesel up like a pretzel.

Oh the joys of science

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
[q..

I can't see why people like plasma guns. It's only a couple shots, and 3x the cost of a grenade launcher.

Don't forget that GL' also dispense drag rounds, useful for when you dump multiples into a unit. 4 GLs can do a fair bit of harm popping off frags into a cluster of haunts, boys and other guardsmen. I remember getting condescending sneers for picking straight GLs as special weapons in a 500 point game. After the third round of firing after having shredded most of his tactical squads down to nubs, that sneer was replaced with a healthy fear of the wee cartridge dispenser.

.......I give up. Drag rounds? I hate iPads. Never buy one.they are fancy overpriced trash.

loner wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
[q..

I can't see why people like plasma guns. It's only a couple shots, and 3x the cost of a grenade launcher.

That AP2 just helps me to monster terminators and stuff, and it's 2 shots (1 more than the GL..) So for 3x the cost of the GL, you're getting S7 AP2 instead of S6 AP4 (who even has a 4+ save nowadays anyway??) and 1 more shot ;D Take Veterans with plasguns and Carapace Armour, so worth it ^_^

Plasma guns can are also better able to sred light tanks. 2 shots at s7 vs 1 shot at s6. IG accuracy means only hitting half the time. With two shots, you are hitting once every round.