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Chance of death= 1/6 (immobile result)+2/6 (Dead result)=1/2
Chance of death with decoys: 2/6 (dead result)+1/12(immobile reroll kill/immobile)=5/12

Survivability: normal/decoy=[ 6/12 ] / [ 5/12 ] = 20% increase

Great option IMO. Tau now have a decent fast attack option to take and skimmers seem to survive well with over 6' glancing rule. I would probably use them with the burst cannon option to hunt infantry and secure objective so the rest of your force could concentrate even more on making things go away. Mech Tau seems to be a great fit.

They make great flankers and also even though the gun drones don't count as scoring you can essentially get 2 fast attack slots out of one piranha squadron. Not too shabby. Capt K

Over on Advanced Tau Tactica they just pointed something out very recently that makes Pirahnas extremely dangerous given the tankhunting utility of the rest of the Tau list.

They can speed along at 24" a turn and only have to maintain 4" coherency. That's more than enough to block, for example, all the entry points on a Rhino or even a Land Raider! Then blow it up and the units inside can't escape. Working moniker is "feeding frenzy".

Do people still put units in transports in V4?

(really laughed out loud at Eds comment there.) And no is the answer of anyone competative i'd assume.

Just gonna throw a random observation into the mix. I find it interesting that GW introduced a "super light"skimmer yet at AV11. Coupled with the AV14 FirePrism rumours, do you think its too early to assume that GW has realised they nerfed vehicles a bit much and are trying to compensate for that?

Piranha's seem to be the light fighter's perfect unit. They're fast, comparably priced (if not equipped range-wise) against Marine Speeders, and can detach a pair of drones to soak up small arms fire while the Piranha itself continues on. Think active mines that shoot back.

I can't imagine these would be very good in large games where their opponent has multiple vehicles (that is, to say, unless the commander is one tactically savvy bastard), but in smaller games where heavy armor is a rarity, and anti-tank weapons are less likely to be taken as a result, this little fish could do some serious damage. Think character-killer with a melta, and light infantry-rapist with a burst cannon. While your mechs mop up the enemy troops, your Piranha's suddenly become agile flankers, capable of raining down hails of accurate fire at close range, thereby decimating anti-armor groups when paired up themselves. Two's company, three's a whole lotta killage.

CK

Posted By mauleed on 03/30/2006 11:55 AM

So let's suppose you take one, just to grab objectives.

Do decoy launchers make sense?

They add 8% to the cost of the thing.

The let you reroll 17% of the damage results, saving you from death just then 50% of the time, so improving your survivability ~8%.

So some math guru explain what I overlooked.

Decoys don't make sense because an opponent will ignore a stunned piranha rather than waste more shots on it, and will kill it next turn. Plus, you shouldn't be getting your piranha shot at.

Do people still put units in transports in V4?

They do when running shooty armies.

Do people still put units in transports in V4?

*waves hands*

I do, I do.

Sisters don't count!

Mech Tau.

Ezz

The mounted units in mech tau are only there so the list is legal. I'm sure the opponent would be thrilled if you put all your efforts into killing fire warriors in a mechanized Tau list.

I use one unit of dual melta Stormtroopers in a Rhino in my Daemonhunter lists. Of course, I never put anything in a Chimera even though I use quite a few of them.

mauleed, the math goes like you mentioned. if it gets glanced once per game, it kinda breaks even. i wouldnt bother with decoys simply to break even. i think its better to just not get them shot at.

if the piranha costs more, the decoys are more worth it. but, that kinda means seekers, to make it really expensive, and if it still has seekers on board then it should be more hidden than a hiding thing which is hiding so it cant be seen.

also if you get it glanced more than once per game then decoys are of more use. depends how often you find them getting glanced.

anyway you're right 60 pts is the breakeven points cost for a open topped skimmer, to benefit from a 5 pt decoy if it gets glanced once per game.
i wouldn't bother with them.

I could see a place for a stripped 60 pointer used purely for the pruposes of objective grabbing. I doubt any upgrades, other than perhaps the decoy launcher, are worth it.

I could see a place for a stripped 60 pointer used purely for the pruposes of objective grabbing. I doubt any upgrades, other than perhaps the decoy launcher, are worth it.

The decoy launcher reduces the chance of the Piranha getting killed by 8.3... %. The cost of the decoy launcher is about 7.x... % of the total cost of the vehicle including the launcher. In other words, you get to very slightly better than break-even with the decoys on.

Do the Piranha's drones count towards its VP total? They are not separately costed and have no VPs of their own, which suggests not.

For scoring purposes the drones are part of the vehicle i.e. it scores at 60 points basic.

For scoring purposes the drones are part of the vehicle i.e. it scores at 60 points basic.

So, if you shoot down a Piranha with the drones on, you get 60VPs. If you shoot down a Piranha which has detached its drones you get 60 VPs. If you shoot the detached drones, you get 0 VPs.

yep

Thats actually incorrect Moz, the crisis suits extra system can be a targetting array, and the new rules for equipment on page 25 will allow someone in a battlesuit to have up to 100 points of wargear

So yes you can use have a squad of crisis suits with plasma rifles, missile pods, hw multi-trackers, hw blacksun filters, hw drone controllers, hw target locks, and bonding knives. . .

Bit off topic but where do you get this from? Pg 25 says that a model in a suit that has access to the Armoury can take up to 100pts of wargear, but the actual entry for suits doesn't say anywhere that regular squad members get that access. Only 'ui and up. I wish you were right though.


As for the Piranah, I can see it being used mainly for two things: Seeker platform in squads of 3+ and objective grabbing. Yeah they can hunt tanks with the fusion blaster but in the main, the Railhead is the vehicle of choice for that and a squad of 3 Fusion-armed suits can DS in to kill of things like Basilisks a bit more reliably I would think. That being said, the Fusion may be the way to go for the vehicle anyway, if only to give the army that extra bit of low AP hitting power when needed in a pinch. Time will tell I guess.

speeking as a player who uses fast vehicles(landspeeders) the pirahanas are most certainly worth it and better than suits-

the ups

they cannot be locked in CC

they do not fall back

they do not take leadership tests for anything

they can move 12" and fire all thier guns including heavy weapons(with multitracker)

they have front arour 11

with proper vehicle upgrades they can shoot at diffferent targets, survive immobilized results, and do pretty well in hand to hand if they are assaulted thanks to the new fletchet rules

you can run squads of 5

the downs

they are open topped

the side/rear armour is still 10

they have less shots than a land speeder

.the gun drones are BS2

with the upgrades they get rather pricy points wise

 

 

 

The decoy launcher reduces the chance of the Piranha getting killed by 8.3... %. The cost of the decoy launcher is about 7.x... % of the total cost of the vehicle including the launcher. In other words, you get to very slightly better than break-even with the decoys on.

do not make the mistake of failing to include the qualifier "assuming you get glanced once per game" when making the above statement.

the main reason i might want piranha is in a suit heavy, no tank army, which is not great at scoring due to mainly hugging terrain.

also, with the fusion, the piranha is an acceptable asssassin of certain things that are a huge threat to the expensive suit squads, ie. hidden indirect ordnance.

Well, another consideration that someone reminded me of in another thread is the "skimmer wall". 2 or 3 little skimmers moving up to block assaulters from advancing. I use this tactic all the time with my speeders, and I don't know why I didn't realize how useful it would be for the Tau. The only headache is that the piranha model is rather large, so when it goes down the next turn it'll hide the enemy fairly well.

But you still get that free round of shooting where they can't advance until they deal with the skimmers.

That alone makes them worth it in my opinion. Hide 3 piranhas behind a piece of terrain near your firebase, and when the enemy starts to approach with their fast movers move the piranhas in to intercept them. The only concerns I would have about that is them getting shot down, as you mentioned, or the enemy assaulting them, meaning they would get closer. The piranhas would then need to move away to be effective giving an open charge lane.

Personally I like the models enough to make them work in my forces. I think even if all of the tactics suggested so far don't work, they are still a great fast response unit and would be wonderful at supporting crisis suit teams.

Posted By Rogue Sun on 04/04/2006 11:01 PM
That alone makes them worth it in my opinion. Hide 3 piranhas behind a piece of terrain near your firebase, and when the enemy starts to approach with their fast movers move the piranhas in to intercept them. The only concerns I would have about that is them getting shot down, as you mentioned, or the enemy assaulting them, meaning they would get closer. The piranhas would then need to move away to be effective giving an open charge lane.

Personally I like the models enough to make them work in my forces. I think even if all of the tactics suggested so far don't work, they are still a great fast response unit and would be wonderful at supporting crisis suit teams.

I'd imagine you must play with some pretty big terrain, then, as piranhas aren't exactly landspeeders when it comes to size.  Additionally, I wonder how many other vehicles you play with, as I find my deployment starts running out of vehicle hiding places around three tanks (depending on the scenario and terrain, obviously).  Hammerheads and devilfish are big, and piranhas aren't much smaller.  Who gets kicked out to to the first volley of fire if you lose the roll to go first?  Or do you buy disruption pods?

Posted By Morticon on 03/30/2006 8:49 PM
(really laughed out loud at Eds comment there.) And no is the answer of anyone competative i'd assume.

Just gonna throw a random observation into the mix. I find it interesting that GW introduced a "super light"skimmer yet at AV11. Coupled with the AV14 FirePrism rumours, do you think its too early to assume that GW has realised they nerfed vehicles a bit much and are trying to compensate for that?

 

While I think the Tau "Lil' Chompy Fish" is decent, it's certainly no Vyper or Falcon.  Should be decent as a support unit though since small arms fire will bounce off, and fast moving skimmers of any army are pretty darn hard to take out.  That gives it a lot more viability than many other light vehicles.

I think the GW trend will probably continue to make vehicles more of a factor against mass las-cannon and mass brightlance armies.  But still, an av 14 fire prism?  I don't think anyone on the planet above the age of 10 has *ever* uttered the words "My Fire Prism is just too much of a target to ever live long enough to be effective.  Spirit Stones and Holo Fields just aren't enough!  Sure would be cool if they were as tough as they are in DOW!"

I don't think anyone on the planet above the age of 10 has *ever* uttered the words "My Fire Prism is just too much of a target to ever live long enough to be effective. Spirit Stones and Holo Fields just aren't enough! Sure would be cool if they were as tough as they are in DOW!"

But that's because none of us own a fire prism.

To paraphrase a great poster.....

"Friends don't let friends use Fire Prisms"