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My opinion is entirely my own.

Secondly, Sanguinius is IMO more deeply falwed than anyone else, barring Lorgar. Sanguinius' troubles and insecurities go as deep as Lorgar's and his outward and inward perfection just makes him the perfect character in my opinion. Humble.

And I have read Betraer, still doesn't override the fact that where Sanguinius is a martyr and war hero, Guilliman is the guy who cleans up. That's how people see it dispite their other actions.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Kidding. In all serious, the difference is the fanboism towards Roboute Guilliman, and that people appreciate something awesome (Sanguinius, a flying, demi-god angel who was Horus' direct counter and died fighting Horus so the Emperor might defeat him and save humanity for at least a while), over a binman (RG just cleaned up the mess with his Codex).

Reading this post of yours Deadshot makes me wonder if you have actually bothered to read anything at all about Guilliamn, other than the typical comments from the neckbeard crowd on various forums, who try to downplay Guilliman’s achievements at every opportunity they get.

 Deadshot wrote:
Honestly, who does the general public appreciate more? A war hero like Sanguinius or Wiston Churchill, or the following government who fixes the aftermath? Like Guilliman or the Labour government? To use British history as an example

I would prefer any primarch over Sanguinius to be honest. Sanguinius is so perfect; he can do no wrong and has no flaws, yawn . Guilliman on the other hand has kicked some major arse in the new HH books, while still making plenty mistakes on his own (read Betrayer and you will see what I mean)

Seconded - Sangunius.....yawn, Bobby is much more interesting....

Lion El'Jonson is named for an english poet (Friend of Oscar Wilde's) who wrote a poem named Dark Angel which was reputedly about his dual natures (His religious self and his sexuality... he was gay).

Corvus Corax is the binomial name of the common raven.

Manus Ferrus means Iron Hand or Hand of Iron in latin.

Alpharius and Omegon... I like the idea that Omegus had personally. That makes sense.

Konrad Curtz is from the book 'Heart of Darkness' by Joseph Conrad which features a character named Curtz. The book was later made into the film Apocalypse Now.

Vulkan is named for the Roman god of fire, volcanoes and smithing.

Mortarion (Slightly obvious this one) comes from the latin mors, which is death.

Not entirely sure about the others...
I know I've heard some stuff but nothing that stuck apparently...

Deadshot wrote:

Kidding. In all serious, the difference is the fanboism towards Roboute Guilliman, and that people appreciate something awesome (Sanguinius, a flying, demi-god angel who was Horus' direct counter and died fighting Horus so the Emperor might defeat him and save humanity for at least a while), over a binman (RG just cleaned up the mess with his Codex).

Honestly, who does the general public appreciate more? A war hero like Sanguinius or Wiston Churchill, or the following government who fixes the aftermath? Like Guilliman or the Labour government? To use British history as an example

Well that was just about the worst analogy ever. Should have stopped at "Kidding" and left off the "In all seriousness".

Angron - Agrion, a Greek word meaning "wild". Possibly also "Agron", a Germanic name.

Leman Russ - Russ is the name of a Norse group that fought and traded with Volga Bulgars and who ruled Russia according to the Primary Chronicle.

Vulkan - Some Roman god of industry. Also likely from the term "volcanic".

Jaghatai Khan - Derived directly from "Chagatai", a Mongolian name.

Alpharius and Omegon - Probably from the phrase "Alpha and the Omega".

Ferrus Manus - Lazy. It literally means "iron hands".

Corax - Also lazy. Derived from "corvidae", which means raven.

Lion'El Jonson - Laziest and most poorly named of all. He's named after Lionel Johnson, a poet with whom Oscar Wilde had sexual relations, which led to Lionel hating himself and becoming a stolid Catholic. Lionel then wrote "Dark Angel", which some Literary historians believe was his railing against Oscar Wilde himself.

It survives as a name in the same way that King does in English, but it was that actual title of a Mongol Emperor. Jaghatai is a less common spelling of Chagatai, Genghis' second son who succeeded him to the Khanate.

lolno. Ogedai succeeded Changaiz as the Great Khan.

Deadshot wrote:And I have read Betraer, still doesn't override the fact that where Sanguinius is a martyr and war hero, Guilliman is the guy who cleans up. That's how people see it dispite their other actions.

I believe you when you say that some people see it this way.

Now, that's a very basic and elementary way to look at things, but hey. Sanguinius was a martyr, sure, but Guilliman saved the Imperium. Both were heroes, but to reduce Guilliman to a "bin man" or "clean up guy" is ridiculous. In a time when the Imperium was in tatters, and half the loyal primarchs were dead or missing, Guilliman stepped up and led the reconquest of the worlds lost to traitor forces. He stepped into the enormous gap left by the Emperor and Malcador. None of his brothers was able to do that.

If there were to be two primarchs looked upon as heroes, Sanguinius and Guilliman would be those two. If you want to let fanboism take over and decide to reduce Guilliman to promote Sanguinius, that's fine. But it's a fairly... incomplete look at the events of the 40K timeline. After the Emperor, Guilliman is the most significant personality in the history of the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Korm wrote:
Lion'El Jonson - Laziest and most poorly named of all. He's named after Lionel Johnson, a poet with whom Oscar Wilde had sexual relations, which led to Lionel hating himself and becoming a stolid Catholic. Lionel then wrote "Dark Angel", which some Literary historians believe was his railing against Oscar Wilde himself.

This wasn't lazy. It was intentional.

Some people don't realize that the original 40K was very silly, and tongue in cheek in nature. Hence Angryon the demon primarch of the Chaos God of being Really Angry, and Mortarion, the demon prince of the Chaos God of disease and decay and death, who looked like Death, and carried a scythe.

bahzakhain wrote:
Wait, you're saying super-arrogant and not-really-ultra Roboute is tolerable? I've heard things making more sense come out of a Chaos Spawn!

That's not at all how he is depicted in the Horus Heresy novels.

No, in the Horus Heresy Guilliman is depicted as an extremely skilled, if arrogant, strategist. That is where most of my fluuf knowledge comes fro and he is pretty awesome then.

He never even is depicted as arrogant, just always being Mr. Perfect about everything, which would irritate the gak out of anyone (and fostered in Lorgar a sense of inferiority).

It's like that guy who is a Rhodes scholar and McArthur genius grant recipient, and has 5 superbowl rings, and is a world-renowned racecar driver, and is married to supermodel twins. feth that guy.

 Omegus wrote:
He never even is depicted as arrogant, just always being Mr. Perfect about everything, which would irritate the gak out of anyone (and fostered in Lorgar a sense of inferiority).

It's like that guy who is a Rhodes scholar and McArthur genius grant recipient, and has 5 superbowl rings, and is a world-renowned racecar driver, and is married to supermodel twins. feth that guy.

Don't we call that a Mary Sue/Marty Stu?

Maybe not arrogant, but he is definitely not described as Mr. Perfect. Mr. Perfect does not get most of his legion destroyed in an ambush by a legion who's perfect city he destroyed.

EDIT: I'm not disputing he is not always written well, and this is getting to thread derailment, but Guilliman is my favourite primarch and it get's annoying to see everyone hate him because of Ward.

Mr. Perfect gets half of his Legion destroyed in an unprecedented betrayal, and still comes out the winner and your spiritual fething liege.

 Kain wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
He never even is depicted as arrogant, just always being Mr. Perfect about everything, which would irritate the gak out of anyone (and fostered in Lorgar a sense of inferiority).

It's like that guy who is a Rhodes scholar and McArthur genius grant recipient, and has 5 superbowl rings, and is a world-renowned racecar driver, and is married to supermodel twins. feth that guy.

Don't we call that a Mary Sue/Marty Stu?

Those of us who know what a Mary Sue is don't.

 Omegus wrote:
Mr. Perfect gets half of his Legion destroyed in an unprecedented betrayal, and still comes out the winner and your spiritual fething liege.

And Guilliman commanded what forces on the ground war? The victory at Calth had less to do with Guilliman and more to do with his training allowing any officer to lead forces competently.

I'm not a roboute fanboy at all but he is an awesome character and great primarch.... I stay away from matt ward's stuff. the HH novels make him out to be a great character. He's full of character flaws but his accomplishment during the crusade and how his legion functioned speaks for itself.

It's a pity his name is so close to Girlyman, though.

Sanguinius suspected the flaw in his legion and hid I from everyone, he's not as perfect as everyone is led to believe.. This is what makes him a great character too

Magnus The Mauve wrote:
It's a pity his name is so close to Girlyman, though.

Guilliman, G-U-I-L-L-I-M-A-N <-- How is that in any way close to Girlyman?? I don't get the connection.

 Redcruisair wrote:

Magnus The Mauve wrote:
It's a pity his name is so close to Girlyman, though.

Guilliman, G-U-I-L-L-I-M-A-N <-- How is that in any way close to Girlyman?? I don't get the connection.

It's very common on these forums for people who don't like him to call him 'Rowboat Girlyman' ... It's just a joke, don't worry about it too much. Much in the same way people who don't like Russ call him 'Wee-man Wuss' meaning small and wimpy.

These names have been around for years

 Omegus wrote:

 phantommaster wrote:
Alpharius and Omegon - Alpha and Omega, both codes used in stealth techniques.

"Stealth techniques"? That's hilariously nonsensical.

Anyway, my personal pet theory regarding the twins is that they are named after Alphard (or Alpha Hydrae), which is the brightest star of the Hydra constellation. As a barium star, it most likely has a companion or twin star, but it is hidden from sight. Then add the first and last letter of the Greek alphabet, as mentioned before, and you get an adaption of Alpha and Omega to get Alpharius and Omegon.

Of course, that's probably giving the designers too much credit, so the alphabet was probably the entirety of their inspiration. Hell, Angron was named after an angry guy named Ron, so they weren't putting too much thought into it.

First and last letters of the Greek alphabet (as noted) + used to describe Jesus "the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end". It's a reference that pops up from time to time, I remember a comic with a seemingly harmless kid named Alphie O'Meagan who turns out to be the most powerful psyker in history.

I also seem to recall that Angron the Rather Angry also shares a name with a historical gladiator (one of Sparticus' men?) so it may not be quite as terrible as it sounds.

I would bet money Roubert Guilleman is named for some guy names Robert Williams.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I also seem to recall that Angron the Rather Angry also shares a name with a historical gladiator (one of Sparticus' men?) so it may not be quite as terrible as it sounds.

There were some Illyrian kings with the name Agron. And a character in the Spartacus: Tits & Decapitations show (amusingly enough, apparently German, but hey, that show cared little for any pretence of historical accuracy) named Agron, but he wasn't a real world person.