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 CaptObvious wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Well, if your opponents enjoy playing against the most optimized lists, then it is gentlemanly. It's pretty simple. You play what is appropriate to the group of people you play with.

True.

Then what do you change to avoid a rock-paper-scissors scenario? In extreme list building, you win by list, not by tactic.

If everyone agrees that it's a contest of list building, that's fine. You should try MTG, it's fun.

I disagree. Two competitive lists and players of similar skill will result in good tactical games. At least that has been my experience. At the higher levels of competition i've experienced I always thoroughly enjoyed my games as they were quite challenging and a battle of wits. I've rarely had games with players turn into completely one-sided affairs, provided that the criteria above were met.

I played with an extremely competitive list. I spent close to 2 years (since 6th came out) perfecting a Tyranid list that exploited every aspect of the old codex with the new 6th edition rules. It was perfect. I can argue and debate til the day I die that no one could ever make a better list with the way the rules are currently written.

I started practicing/creating this list by playing a few friends out of my brother's house. I made it as optimized as possible. As I played the list over and over again, I knew I was slowly becoming a WAAC player. Competitive genes ran in my family after all. After crossing my T's and dotting my I's, I decided to enter some local tournaments at my FLGS.

I played in two tournaments with a total of 6 games. I won 5 of them and lost 1 due to a huge tactical error. I pointed out the loss only because I made the mistake; the list was perfect. Out of the 5 wins, I tabled 4 players and on the 5th game he only had a LR left. If the game continued to Turn6, it would have been a tabling as well. While playing I got comments like "I thought this was a friendly tournament" and "This list is brutal, man", and don't forget "Nids are suppose to be an assault army, why do you have 60 TL-S6 shots?!" I began feeling bad.

Shortly after, I spent days just looking into the mirror. "Look at yourself, you're a WAAC'er. You disgust me!" After some deep thought and rehab, I turned a new leaf. I sold my Nid army and started looking into new armies. To my surprise, the one army that stood out the most was another CC-oriented army (as this was my original intent when I started Nids in 5th).

I chose: Black Templars. Yum. Nothing like a 4th edition codex to purge the Xenos out of your system! Bye-bye WAAC'er, hello dual-LRCs!

Hope you enjoyed the story, kids!

 LValx wrote:

I disagree. Two competitive lists and players of similar skill will result in good tactical games. At least that has been my experience. At the higher levels of competition i've experienced I always thoroughly enjoyed my games as they were quite challenging and a battle of wits. I've rarely had games with players turn into completely one-sided affairs, provided that the criteria above were met.

Tournament play, or your buddy tailors a list to beat yours?

 CaptObvious wrote:

 LValx wrote:

I disagree. Two competitive lists and players of similar skill will result in good tactical games. At least that has been my experience. At the higher levels of competition i've experienced I always thoroughly enjoyed my games as they were quite challenging and a battle of wits. I've rarely had games with players turn into completely one-sided affairs, provided that the criteria above were met.

Tournament play, or your buddy tailors a list to beat yours?

Tournament play and "casual" play. Most of the folks I play(ed) with were competitive-minded and attended events so none of them ever tailored (neither do I). IMO, that is poor etiquette. You build a TAC list and though you might make modifications based off of perceived weaknesses, etc. You should never change your list to beat one opponent in particular, especially if you dont plan on keeping those changes permanently.

Saythings wrote:
I played with an extremely competitive list. I spent close to 2 years (since 6th came out) perfecting a Tyranid list that exploited every aspect of the old codex with the new 6th edition rules. It was perfect. I can argue and debate til the day I die that no one could ever make a better list with the way the rules are currently written.

I started practicing/creating this list by playing a few friends out of my brother's house. I made it as optimized as possible. As I played the list over and over again, I knew I was slowly becoming a WAAC player. Competitive genes ran in my family after all. After crossing my T's and dotting my I's, I decided to enter some local tournaments at my FLGS.

I played in two tournaments with a total of 6 games. I won 5 of them and lost 1 due to a huge tactical error. I pointed out the loss only because I made the mistake; the list was perfect. Out of the 5 wins, I tabled 4 players and on the 5th game he only had a LR left. If the game continued to Turn6, it would have been a tabling as well. While playing I got comments like "I thought this was a friendly tournament" and "This list is brutal, man", and don't forget "Nids are suppose to be an assault army, why do you have 60 TL-S6 shots?!" I began feeling bad.

Shortly after, I spent days just looking into the mirror. "Look at yourself, you're a WAAC'er. You disgust me!" After some deep thought and rehab, I turned a new leaf. I sold my Nid army and started looking into new armies. To my surprise, the one army that stood out the most was another CC-oriented army (as this was my original intent when I started Nids in 5th).

I chose: Black Templars. Yum. Nothing like a 4th edition codex to purge the Xenos out of your system! Bye-bye WAAC'er, hello dual-LRCs!

Hope you enjoyed the story, kids!

And now I'm curious about this perfect list!

But of course, perfect for me and perfect for you could be quite different. Still congratulations of making an army work for you, especially if you now are playing Templars!

But personally, any time I come into the FLGS for a game, I bring Chaos and Nids. I really can't turn off my Nids as competitive, that's all I play them as. But my Chaos includes 0 spawn, 0 bikers, 0 Heldrakes and 0 Oblits... just because!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/503064.page

For those interested in the list. I edited to match the latest roster. It is a very fun list, well, fun for you. The other player - not so much.

I'm aiming for my new BT army to be done in August. I've been proxying the list for awhile and I like it. Just don't have the models done and definitely not painted! haha.

Sorry Saythings...my horde of poison gants is definitely not scared of your superlist.

But It's definitely good for the current meta.

Saythings wrote:
I played with an extremely competitive list. I spent close to 2 years (since 6th came out) perfecting a Tyranid list that exploited every aspect of the old codex with the new 6th edition rules. It was perfect. I can argue and debate til the day I die that no one could ever make a better list with the way the rules are currently written.

I started practicing/creating this list by playing a few friends out of my brother's house. I made it as optimized as possible. As I played the list over and over again, I knew I was slowly becoming a WAAC player. Competitive genes ran in my family after all. After crossing my T's and dotting my I's, I decided to enter some local tournaments at my FLGS.

I played in two tournaments with a total of 6 games. I won 5 of them and lost 1 due to a huge tactical error. I pointed out the loss only because I made the mistake; the list was perfect. Out of the 5 wins, I tabled 4 players and on the 5th game he only had a LR left. If the game continued to Turn6, it would have been a tabling as well. While playing I got comments like "I thought this was a friendly tournament" and "This list is brutal, man", and don't forget "Nids are suppose to be an assault army, why do you have 60 TL-S6 shots?!" I began feeling bad.

Shortly after, I spent days just looking into the mirror. "Look at yourself, you're a WAAC'er. You disgust me!" After some deep thought and rehab, I turned a new leaf. I sold my Nid army and started looking into new armies. To my surprise, the one army that stood out the most was another CC-oriented army (as this was my original intent when I started Nids in 5th).

I chose: Black Templars. Yum. Nothing like a 4th edition codex to purge the Xenos out of your system! Bye-bye WAAC'er, hello dual-LRCs!

Hope you enjoyed the story, kids!

6th is just a year old now... so you didn't hone the list for that long. lol I am curious though, what did you end up taking in this opponent tabling nid army? I ask because the nid player in our group has been very successful since 6th dropped, and I'm curious if his choices were similar to yours.

Look 2 posts up

Thanks. I somehow missed that.

My mistake on the dates! I started Nids 2 years ago, and I've worked on the list since 6th came out! Pardon the miscommunication!

The Nids player I played against had a similar list as well. Instead of 3 Carnifexes in pods, he ran 3 Mawlocs and 5 Ymgarl Genestealers. Besides that, the list was the same. Oh, he also got Iron Arm on his Doom (1/6 chance, yay!). Another note about the game is it was Kill Points. That didn't go to well for the 5 Spods. Regardless, it was a close game.

I assume this question is a character test.

I will proceed with a plan in the following order:

1) DESTROY my opponent with my clever army selection and deployment. Failing that, on to step 2:

2) Select a target and proclaim loudly that his command unit will DIE AND THERE IS NOTHING HE CAN DO ABOUT IT. Failing that, on to step 3:

3) Target the unit/model that has been hurting me the most and try to kill it. If successful loudly proclaim: "YOU FELL FOR MY RUSE: UNIT xxx WAS MY TARGET! YOU ARE DOOMED". Failing that, on to step 4:

4) By now I should be soundly trounced or did as I said. Say great game and figure out like mad how to beat him in the future. Playing like this is a GREAT way to see how people play and who is a good sport or a jerk with a small risk of at first seeming like a jerk.

Did I also say that all of the above should be done while grinning like an idiot?

Good gaming!

 Talizvar wrote:
I assume this question is a character test.

I will proceed with a plan in the following order:

1) DESTROY my opponent with my clever army selection and deployment. Failing that, on to step 2:

2) Select a target and proclaim loudly that his command unit will DIE AND THERE IS NOTHING HE CAN DO ABOUT IT. Failing that, on to step 3:

3) Target the unit/model that has been hurting me the most and try to kill it. If successful loudly proclaim: "YOU FELL FOR MY RUSE: UNIT xxx WAS MY TARGET! YOU ARE DOOMED". Failing that, on to step 4:

4) By now I should be soundly trounced or did as I said. Say great game and figure out like mad how to beat him in the future. Playing like this is a GREAT way to see how people play and who is a good sport or a jerk with a small risk of at first seeming like a jerk.

Did I also say that all of the above should be done while grinning like an idiot?

Good gaming!

Step 5: Sledgehammer always beats plastic model.
...
...
...
Step 6: Sudden realization that Lawyer beats Sledgehammer.

Saythings wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/503064.page

For those interested in the list. I edited to match the latest roster. It is a very fun list, well, fun for you. The other player - not so much.

I'm aiming for my new BT army to be done in August. I've been proxying the list for awhile and I like it. Just don't have the models done and definitely not painted! haha.

Nasty, nasty, nasty! The lists this would have trouble with are... um... maybe Drop Jaws SW. And, hordey Tyranids... otherwise, ouch. Seeing this makes me reconsider the Dakkafex

Some GKT spam might hurt too.

Admittedly, I've never ran this list against Space Wolves or Hordes. I have no idea how I'd play against the SW because of a lack of experience against them. No one plays them in my meta. I wouldn't consider hordes very hard though. I do have 60 TL S6 shots, plus 2 Zoans with Shriek, and the infamous Doom. And don't forget I have gants of my own to bubble wrap all those previously mentioned models. Hordes can't really stand up to that much firepower/psychic attacks.

I have played Necron Flyer Spam w/ CSM Ally, Draigowing, IG Mech, IG Gunline, other Nids, Tau, Dark Angel Mech, among others. None of which was too tricky to play against.

Competitive lists are only fun when you run them yourself. No one in my meta, short of the Necron/CSM player, was very competitive. Certainly not WAAC players. That's why I gave up on the list and went a little fluffier. I still stand by that list. Very difficult to beat, and hard to find weaknesses. Dakkafexes have never failed me btw. They are simply too good. haha

I've never had them not be effective either...and this is before the entrance of fliers in 6th.

They far outstrip the utility of a Trygon for me. Though, they could stand to shed a few pounds in the points department.

kinratha wrote:Don't play them, I why would I want to play a WAAC player?

You don't seem to understand what a WAAC player is and why they're terrible. Playing a "super competitive" list does not, in of itself, make you a WAAC player.

Face it, this is a game that pits two players against one another. Only one person can win. The objective of the game is to win (and hopefully have fun doing so). If you aren't trying to win, you aren't really trying to play the game.

Which is fine by the way. It's a big hobby and its awesome what some painters and kit-bashers can do. I like that there is more to W40K than just the game.

But then if you aren't playing the game, why bother making a post in a forum clearly dedicated to discussing tactics for helping you win and in a thread asking for advice on what to do when facing lists designed to help you win consistently?

Probably an overly pompous/lengthy reply to what amounts to a spam post, but its a pet peeve of mine when people equate trying to win with being a jerk (which is what WAAC players are).


Anyways, for the OP: This is a massively open ended question. It would help if you can narrow it down. What army do you play? What lists specifically are you seeing? If you want just general advice, well... Remember to play the mission and to capitalize on mistakes made by your opponent. In a friendly game I'll tell someone when they are making a mistake,

For myself, I play Space Wolves. Nearly always a Drop Pod list. I struggle against some of the top lists at times. It depends on the lay of the land, and some of the other random variables. Generally speaking I try to find a weak point in the enemy deployment and push hard. I tend to be aggressive with my deployment of objectives so that I don't have far to move to capture some.

But beyond these vague comments I can't offer you more unless you narrow down your question.

When I wind up facing a 'net list' I play my best. Often Ill see if I can throw them for a loop with a non net list.

Net Lists are usually sub optimal lists that people "theory craft" will work...when was the last time you saw a net list place in the top 10 at a major tournament. Also certain people are more effective with certain units, which contribute a lot to discrepancy in list effectiveness.

if people take super serious win all lists then what works best for me is to take the most crazy doesnt make sense list i can make. for whatever reason it just seems to completely destroy the flow of the enemy perfect list. for example taking the parasite, deathleaper, shrikes, mawlocs, warriors, and a carnifex for my nids. all junk choices really but for some reason it works.

I like that Orks have gone from being a very forgiving, new-player-friendly army into one of the most difficult to play successfully since the advent of 6E. You have to be a masterful tactician to play anything other than the one tournament-viable list (all-BW) and not get completely tabled every game, by every other army. But it can be done! I'm not saying I'm a master tactician but I've only been completely tabled once, and in the games I lose I always manage to give a hell of a fight.

So I guess my answer to the OP would be: focus less on creating unstoppable lists and think more about what your favorite army can do with terrain and being unpredictable.

Bring lots of big guns and dakka!

Subject: How do YOU deal with the most competitive lists?

Lootas.
Failing that.. I'm screwed.

I usually don't play against powergamers/manchildren

But probably try to fill my list with boyz and lootas to stabby/shooty them to death.

Orks can beat up BA just fine.

Having faced Orks many times:

3 X 30ork blobs of shootas
13 some odd Lootas
2 to 3 squadrons of koptas with TL missiles

Equals a whole world of hurt.
One time I fielded 6 full marine squads against them: it actually did a great job. I was shocked.

I counter pieplatedroppingcornerfort#9001 with a bunch of Grot Bomm Launchas. Feels dirty when I then have to take the same GBL spam list against a player with something else in the next round

 Multimoog wrote:
the one tournament-viable list (all-BW)

Thats very much not the case man. Personally I've had nothing but bad luck with wagons. I rue that last snapshotted Lascannon they suddenly remember at the end of their shooting phase - it has yet to do anything but 6/6/6 my battlewagon into a smoking crater

So far a good discussion in the dakka forum's Tactics thread.

 CaptObvious wrote:
So you always win? ... cool, you must get all the pussy.

Thank you, yes I do.

There seems to be some disagreement about what constitutes a TAC list. Really an extreme type of list could be a TAC list by definition if it's that army's best chance of approaching the most lists/armies/strategies. So Cron flyer spam could be TAC if it is built to be able to deal with most lists. Sure, it might fail against some specific lists but all lists do even if they have a strong combination of mobility, shooting and assault (or whatever).

This thread's pretty awesome though. It might help if someone presented a list of what competitive lists are so people could reply with their planned response to that list. Otherwise I think I'd agree that the best strategy is to play your game and go for objectives. ^^

Try to win, then give them 0 sportsmanship points or 1 (of 3) if they were nice players.