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Beer, lots of beer.

I personally don't deal with competitive lists by changing my list to beat them, because I only like to use certain models and themes in my army and have no interest breaking that code just to be more competitive. If the person is a great guy to talk with, the game should still be fun. If not, well, that happens at tournaments. I'll find myself giving unwanted painting advice to the grey plastic army that was purchased to win and that the owner has absolutely no interest in painting. Lots of painting advice. Every turn.

I call the person with the competitive list a WAAC TFG until they are shamed into taking a weaker list. And then I win.

 AntomanElven wrote:
I usually don't play against powergamers/manchildren

How mature of you. You know it's funny how the most obnoxious and condescending behavior always comes from so-called "casual" players complaining about competitive lists/players.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Try to win, then give them 0 sportsmanship points or 1 (of 3) if they were nice players.

So what you're saying is you punish your opponent for winning by abusing the system and giving them a poor sportsmanship score. If only sportsmanship was magically graded by the god of sportsmanship so you could get the zero you deserve...

 Peregrine wrote:

So what you're saying is you punish your opponent for winning by abusing the system and giving them a poor sportsmanship score. If only sportsmanship was magically graded by the god of sportsmanship so you could get the zero you deserve...

Yep. If someone feels like fielding tons of Vendettas or Necron flyers, that's what he gets. It's different in bigger tournaments as they differentiate between Composition and Sportsmanship; in this case, they'd get 0 for composition and sportsmanship depends on the player - as it should be.

How I deal with competitive lists? As long as I have a decent list, I can usually win by outplaying or out positioning the other player.

If you're list has any wow factor at all, that might be the only edge you need for another player to think he's fighting an uphill battle. If he starts doubting himself, then you're already winning.

Another thing I like to do when I make a list (to see if it's "decent"), I'll go to a checklist to see how well it does against several 6th edition threats:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/532600.page

Hope that helps.

I just do my best to make less mistakes than my opponent, and work hard to turn any loss into a draw, and any draw into a win. However, no one can really call me a WAAC player, not with my Ghostwing list being considered subpar by all and sundry. To win with a themed list is to be the better player, not the better spender.

SJ

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. If someone feels like fielding tons of Vendettas or Necron flyers, that's what he gets. It's different in bigger tournaments as they differentiate between Composition and Sportsmanship; in this case, they'd get 0 for composition and sportsmanship depends on the player - as it should be.

So what you're saying is that if you're playing in an event that doesn't have comp scoring (and good tournaments don't) you use sportsmanship scoring as an excuse to punish your opponent for bringing a list you don't like, even if they had flawless sportsmanship? Do you realize that abusing the sportsmanship system like this is incredibly poor sportsmanship?

So what you're saying is that if you're playing in an event that doesn't have comp scoring (and good tournaments don't) you use sportsmanship scoring as an excuse to punish your opponent for bringing a list you don't like, even if they had flawless sportsmanship? Do you realize that abusing the sportsmanship system like this is incredibly poor sportsmanship?

Agreed. It is a move. I don't dock the sportsmanship of the guy/gal who brought the uncompetitive fluff list just because he/she didn't put up a fight. I don't think I've ever given less than full sportsperson points, and I've had games where the opponents haven't been on their best behavior. I tend to think that one should only dock points in extreme cases.

Umm...play aggressively?

I either:
a. Get stomped
b. The randomness of CDs help me win with lots of good rolls on the warpstorm chart killing his men and vehicles and giving me better ++ saves!
c. I systematically try to cause the most damage I can, aiming for his scoring units while hiding 1 guy at the back of my deployment zone to make it hard for said opponent to table me...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. If someone feels like fielding tons of Vendettas or Necron flyers, that's what he gets. It's different in bigger tournaments as they differentiate between Composition and Sportsmanship; in this case, they'd get 0 for composition and sportsmanship depends on the player - as it should be.

So what you're saying is that if you're playing in an event that doesn't have comp scoring (and good tournaments don't) you use sportsmanship scoring as an excuse to punish your opponent for bringing a list you don't like, even if they had flawless sportsmanship? Do you realize that abusing the sportsmanship system like this is incredibly poor sportsmanship?

Let me see; there are internet lists or at least combinations that are well known to be a fine bat to beat opponents to death with.

"Sportsmanship" meaning "as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing" not much respect (or too much?) if you bring these lists. I find it easier to be gracious when I win.

Final argument: you know you get an edge fielding these units so your opponent is justified in giving a low score because it is part of the game in a tournament claiming abuse is rather naive.

You show me brilliant tactics (or a fantastic sense of humor) rather than the easy choice units winning the game for you and I give you a slightly higher score (as most others have indicated).

I can drop some money like GW wants and field something truly nasty and win almost every time. I would run out of opponents unless they are confirmed masochists.

I try my best to win. If I lose, I take the loss as a lesson and try to improve. If I win, well, I drink a victory coke.

Though I feel like I am at the giving end of this sort of issue more than the receiving.

Ultimately the argument comes down to this:

Good sportsmanship is making sure that both you and your opponent enjoy the game, even if one of you gets tabled. If your opponent likes to play competitive tournament lists and list tailoring, then you do the same so that both your expectations are met. If your opponent likes to bring along fun, fluffy lists or is new to the hobby, then leave your damn tournament list at home.

It's that simple people. It's common sense.

Speaking as an assistant tournament organizer myself:

If you are going to a competitive tournament (as opposed to one that places the emphasis on everyone having a fun day out) deliberately fielding a competitive list is good sportsmanship. Deliberately fielding a non-competitive list is BAD sportsmanship at such a tournament, because

(i) Your opponent is expecting to you to field one and has planned accordingly
(ii) If you don't, then one or both of you is not going to enjoy the game (Many players hate tabling people on turn 2 even more than they hate being tabled themselves).
(iii) Most importantly (and probably most controversially), you are letting down the other players because if you don't bring your best list and your best game, you are giving away easy points that will skew the tournament results. You're essentially giving your opponent a free win, whether that was your intention or not.

On the other hand, if you are attending a fun tournament, where the idea is to show off your new army and have a laugh then don't bring your uber spam list of death because you will be that guy everyone hates. It's easy to spot these tournaments: they give points for composition, encourage you to submit an army backgrounds articles and give extra points for presenting your list in an interesting format. Throne of Skulls tournaments try to be like this(but sometimes fail). Most Australian tournaments seem to work this way as well. Partially because GW is so damn expensive over there that even fewer people can afford to fork out the cash for ultra-competitive lists.

Finally, there are those to one of the many tournaments that comofrtably occupy the middle ground (like Chaos of the Warp for example). In these tournaments, either type of list s perfectly acceptable. Most of these (but not all) use the Swiss system for arranging matches. In these tournaments you will find that by game 2 you are playing against people with the same outlook as yourself. The ultra competitive types will be sweating away over at the top tables when the more "fluffy" players (such as myself) will be laughing, joking and having fun down towards the bottom of the hall.

The simple rule is: know your tournament (or know your opponent in friendly games) and choose your list accordingly.

I lose...

Play in a goofy way. I will not understand your strategy, make mistake and you will see some opportunity. I try that a few time and when you see the player sweating because is thinking to strong, priceless.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

So what you're saying is you punish your opponent for winning by abusing the system and giving them a poor sportsmanship score. If only sportsmanship was magically graded by the god of sportsmanship so you could get the zero you deserve...

Yep. If someone feels like fielding tons of Vendettas or Necron flyers, that's what he gets. It's different in bigger tournaments as they differentiate between Composition and Sportsmanship; in this case, they'd get 0 for composition and sportsmanship depends on the player - as it should be.

Honestly this is just proving how poor of a sportsman you are and ironically your behavior or in this case your opinion is quite hypocritical, "he beat me in a game so I am going to punish him because I dont like his list composition" seriously how old are you? Maybe you should realize that in a TOURNAMENT people are going to bring out all the stops to win because at a TOURNAMENT there generally is a prize such as store credit, a model ect. And maybe instead of crying about people spamming Necron Flyers or Vendettas maybe consider finding ways to counter them? Dont mean to feed the troll but really you sound quite childish.

I play in a very competitive store and honestly it has made me a better player as everyone puts together either pretty or very competitive army lists and I love it. It prepares us so when the big ones come around we are ready and at the same time are still able to have fun. You can play friendly games and clear it up with your opponent that this is a shinanigans list and if your opponent still insists on taking a super competitive list then you know for a fact he is a WAAC player. Just because people play competitive lists dose not make them WAAC players, thats an ignorant statement.

40K is such a terrible competitive game, I wonder why 'so competitive it hurts' people bother to the extent they do instead of playing something else.

the "competative lists" all involve owning the skies, so make sure they dont but using mass interceptor units and then youve won. read my signature for the reason

Let me see; there are internet lists or at least combinations that are well known to be a fine bat to beat opponents to death with.

"Sportsmanship" meaning "as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing" not much respect (or too much?) if you bring these lists. I find it easier to be gracious when I win.

When you go to an event, you know what you are getting into. I'd expect people to bring their best and try to win. That doesn't mean cheating or being a poor sport. Interestingly enough, 9/10 of the players I've met in the "competitive" scene are good people--they are gracious winners and losers. Most are the type of person you want to grab a drink with afterward. There is always "that guy", but I've seen "that guy" in higher percentages when I've played against more "fluffy" players.

It is an unfair characterization to claim that tournament players are "bad" sports because they are playing to win. Just like it is unfair to characterize players who care about painting cool units as brain-dead idiots that can't understand a tabletop game.

Final argument: you know you get an edge fielding these units so your opponent is justified in giving a low score because it is part of the game in a tournament claiming abuse is rather naive.

You show me brilliant tactics (or a fantastic sense of humor) rather than the easy choice units winning the game for you and I give you a slightly higher score (as most others have indicated).

I can drop some money like GW wants and field something truly nasty and win almost every time. I would run out of opponents unless they are confirmed masochists.

/Shrug. There are good units, and there are terrible units. As a grad student, I don't have the disposable income to buy complete crap just to make a random person happy. I also happen to be lucky enough to play in an area in which people like to be challenged by making nasty combinations. Like I said before, when you go to an event, expect to compete. Don't dock everyone else because you can't or don't want to. Just don't go.

The idea of people docking points due to list composition is crazy to me. I've had terrible games against really unfriendly people and I always give max sportsmanship. It's too subjective and I think it is bad practice to give out low sportsmanship except in extreme cases. If the opponent is cheating, etc, I can understand it, but doing it based off of the units they take is pretty low.

I agree. If we found out someone was docking sportsmanship points because they thought a list was over-powered, they'd get to play banhammer.

I'd remind our friend that most tournament organisers pay very careful attention to sportsmanship scores. A guy who gives someone who regularly receives a high sportsmanship score a low grade is going to be noticed. Especially if he does so over the course of several tournaments. Tournament organisers do get to know their regulars very well. Keep that crap up and you'll be found out and booted eventually.

One could easily consider how you score your opponent a "tactical" part of the game. Is your goal: winning individual games OR in the overall standings?

Just as army selection, terrain placement and who starts, all have their place in tactics.

It all really comes down to expectation.

Big competition = no holds barred any army selection is allowed: the more cheesy the better. No mercy. Oh yes, and remember to be friendly, smile and know many jokes. Remember you are scored on "likeability", ehrm... I mean "sportsmanship".

Normal gaming: know your enemy and try to bring the same level of fluff: if sucks to bring a horde to a flying circus fight. Here you could actually find out about the person, roll the dice and find amusement in either outcome. You can always substitute "fluff" with "experimental list" to keep your edge.

I know what my friends field and they know mine and we have great epic scraps that take it to the wire. THAT is what I like most (and winning and rubbing their faces in it because that is what we do in the name of friendship!!! and flying in the face of sportsmanship)