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Interesting. When I play a mirror match, I breathe a sigh of relief its not a good codex.

Martel732 wrote:
Interesting. When I play a mirror match, I breathe a sigh of relief its not a good codex.

When I play BT I feel great after mopping the floor with them.

Martel732 wrote:
Assaulting the wave serpent is hard to do, much less blocking the hatch, after a couple turns of Eldar shooting.

I don't like having to use codex powers to make my level one libby as good as a level two libby that other lists get for the same price. Divination is far more game changing than BA codex powers, imo.

AV 13 wall has a tendency to be AV 11 wall because of the way GW draws facing arcs for vehicles.

Just my experience.

I can't say that I fully agree with your points but your experience is appreciated.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Interesting. When I play a mirror match, I breathe a sigh of relief its not a good codex.

When I play BT I feel great after mopping the floor with them.

While I dont SEE Black Templar that often, I can say I never lost to them, save for my very first game against SM, which happened to be Black Templar. Their codex is ooooooold.

But thats interesting that you handle Blood Angels so handily. I did a number on some last night with Eldar. But that was mostly because he'd never seen an army like mine before adn didn't know what to do. He will next time...

BA vs BA? I know them so well that no one can surprise me with anything. Many BA bring DC not in LR, so I make sure they NEVER charge. Many BA try to rely on SR for much of their fire support and I effectively end the game before they can cause too much damage. Many BA waste points trying to be cute with Vanguards. Also, many BA seem to like assbacks that I incinerate before they get in range. It's so easy to construct a BA list that is easy to beat.

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, Corbulo is on foot and can't magically be in every squad. He might mitigate one helldrake, but he costs 60% of one and doesn't stop the other two helldrakes at all. That's why they bring triple helldrake.

No, but he can make one heck of a defensive squad.




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DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Spiritseer with Spear of Teuthlas 85
4 * 5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents with Cannons 760
2 * 10 Guardians in Wave Serpents with Cannons 430
3 Fire Prisms 375
2 units of 6 Swooping Hawks 192

How's that for an Eldar 1850 list? Grab a Warlord trait from the Eldar Codex list and call it a day. Deploy everything, Skyleaping the Hawks on the first turn so they're guaranteed to arrive on the second turn. 3 Fire Prisms will handle hard targets, and for infantry you've got 6 Wave Serpents and 80 bladestorm shots from your Fleet Infantry, plus the damage your Hawks do with a large blast and 18 lasblaster shots each.

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As for winning with Banshees, I'd take a squad of five of them and keep them behind my Wraithlords and Wraithblades. On the turn that the wraith units hit combat, multiassault as many engaged units as possible with the banshees, spreading around the -5 Initiative to get your wraithlords swinging first and your axes swinging simultaneously with your targets.

Banshees are a neat idea as a support unit, but they lack the punch to be first sharp edge of the blade.

I look at that list and it's got a lot of fire power, but I'd get to play keep away a lot. Against BA, with a squad with corbulo at the back I can't attack that squad on your backfield objective.
Fire Prisms get 3 shots -
Str5 ap3 large blast = Corbulo tanks
Str7 ap2 = corbulo tanks
Str 9 ap1?= Corbulo 'look out sirs' and I kill one marine.

Wave Serpants - 4 scatter laser shots and d6+1 shields shots - call it 5 shots (average 3 or 4 so I'm going for slightly over) so thats 11 str 6 shots. or which Corbulo tanks 6 or 7 on his armour and then fnp's the rest.

80 Shuriken shots vs corbulo
80 Shots, 60 Hits, 30 Wounds, 5 Rending which he takes on fnp and may or may not take a wound. that leaves 25 wounds of which he takes 16 or so on his armour, then fnp's the rest taking something like 1 wound. Or not, if you use his once per game re-roll.

That leaves two units of Hawks = 30 or so lasgun shots. considering 80 str 4 shuriken shots with rending does maybe 1 wound, I'm not even going to hash that one through.

So, firing that whole army at corbulo in a squad on an objective (in the unlikely event theres nothing else to shoot at and I can bring it all to bear) = he may or may not take a wound. I may kill 3 marines behind him. That means theres not really much point attacking that squad, so your objective would be safe because I wouldn't waste the shooting at him. For 120 points or so. (don't know his actual cost, just going from Martels post about him being 2 thirds of a heldrake)

Other 'bad' units include
Mephiston - With book powers, he will kill a wraithknight in one round of combat. It won't even get to swing. He even has the speed to catch it now runes of warding is gone. All the wraithknight can do is hope it went for the stock wraithcannons and then to hope it rolls 6's on shooting before he catches it.
Helldrakes lose to Storm Ravens.
Assault marines - You can take marines that score with jump packs and krak grenades. Catching a wave serpent is exactly as easy as catching a BA razorback or rhino - they're all fast vehicles.
Against armies that don't have as much speed, you should be able to threaten everything in range with them bar elite cc units like TH/SS termies. Even then, weight of attacks might work.

There are still ways to use BA that make them tough to play against. You might not win all the time, but you can definitely smash some faces in along the way. Show other players you still have teeth!

@DaddyWarcrimes - Thanks for the Banshees idea, I like that, you may have just convinced me to give them the time of day in a game soon.
@Martel - I really would like to see you post something positive about the blood angels You seem so jaded its like you've given up before you play.
Anyway, I've said my piece so I'll leave you to it.

I'm just tired of losing by lack of bodies on the field. There's only so much you can do against Tau and Eldar. They are going to get their pound of flesh before you even dream of assaulting them, and its usually too much.

Also, helldrakes don't instantly lose to stormravens. All they really need is a single 5+ demon save against the MM to fry a big chunk of another squad the next turn. Unfortunately, this adds up quickly even with FNP.

In your example, Mephiston does well. But what posters are not seeing are that for every instance like this, there are two matches where he looks silly. You can never afford for a 250 pt model to look silly, especially in a codex that has issues with overcostedness already.

Dont worry, struggling against tau and eldar is not just a problem for blood angels but most codex's.

I'd also like to mention the most of the people I play with don't feth around with their lists. The lists are build to wreck other tournament lists, so my BA are just kind of in the way. I still remember by second game of 6th edition where an IG player forced 50+ armor saves in a single turn. I was basically like, yeah, this isn't looking good for the home team. I don't think my shootiest list even gets 50 shots in a turn, lol.


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It's also really hard to not be jaded when the last time I played Eldar we called it by turn 2 and decided it would be a better use of time to go get hamburgers. Some BA players in my region get away with setting up some rather....dubious maps,but when forced to play with truly random terrain like where I play, the Eldar melts face big time. There's no where to hide and they don't miss anymore Oh, and wave serpents don't die until its way too late.

Can you not get some mates and just play for fun for a bit?

PredaKhaine wrote:
Can you not get some mates and just play for fun for a bit?

This isn't the point. The simple fact is that the BA codex makes it very difficult, if not impossible to make a TAC tournament quality list. If that's the goal, look elsewhere.

 MrEconomics wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Can you not get some mates and just play for fun for a bit?

This isn't the point. The simple fact is that the BA codex makes it very difficult, if not impossible to make a TAC tournament quality list. If that's the goal, look elsewhere.

Yes, actually it was exactly my point.
I was asking Martel why he comes across so jaded on BA and suggested he tried to just enjoy himself during a game to get some enthusiasm back.

And the reason we all play this game is because we like it - whether its for fun/fluff/comp/winning/whatever your poison is - If you don't enjoy what you get out of it then why do it?
Life's too short to waste on things you don't like that nobody is making you do.

A DoA list can still be decent, not deep striking neccessarily just taking advantage of the 12" move meaning that you have turn two assaults, mephiston is still a boss (although being ap3 is an issue), and storm ravens are a very strong flyer. I don't like the other SC's, all suffering from some black spot, dante wasting his high I by having an unwieldly weapon for example. I'd avoid the dreads as I don't think you get enough bang for your buck, short of you taking lucius pattern drop pods

Ceann Fine wrote:
A DoA list can still be decent, not deep striking neccessarily just taking advantage of the 12" move meaning that you have turn two assaults, mephiston is still a boss (although being ap3 is an issue), and storm ravens are a very strong flyer. I don't like the other SC's, all suffering from some black spot, dante wasting his high I by having an unwieldly weapon for example. I'd avoid the dreads as I don't think you get enough bang for your buck, short of you taking lucius pattern drop pods

FYI, BA don't get the Lucius pattern drop pod. That'd be horrible - av13 turn one charging dreadnoughts with extra attacks everytime they roll...

That'd be as bad as third ed rhino rush was for them.

I thought the most recent update from FW said it was for all space marine books except Grey Knights, maybe I just imagined that part

Well, there's also that my son likes to watch me play. So there's that. Also, I really like the 6th ed rules for the most part, I just happen to play in a competitive meta.

Lucius is not allowed for BA. Even if it were, it would not be a cure all. They have a non-trivial cost and would further contribute to poor model count. Necron flying bakery would just point and laugh anyway.

I think the fragnought is actually a high spot of the codex, not the Stormraven. I'm sure myself and others have pointed this out, but for the price, the Stormraven is not that good. In fact, I'm beginning to find it to be a bit below average, due to all the upgrades you are forced to buy along with it. The Stormraven is not the kind of flier a list that suffers from overcostedness needs. It just makes the problems worse.

 MrEconomics wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Can you not get some mates and just play for fun for a bit?

This isn't the point. The simple fact is that the BA codex makes it very difficult, if not impossible to make a TAC tournament quality list. If that's the goal, look elsewhere.

This is why I bring all 5k of my BA with me and build a list on the spot to play against a specific army. I still don't know what the player will field, but I know if I am playing necrons to leave my vehicals in the army case. Most people I play with will do this so it's no big deal. It allows each player to potentially have a better list for the matchup. But you do get some people who will be like "oh you're bringing that? Mind if I bring 4 demon princes in a 2k game?" I never say no, even if I know it's not going to be a great game because sometimes there are lessons or tricks to be learned from getting a beat down. Nex time don't do this, next time field unit Y, etc...

I am surpirsed no one is running a bike heavy list. I know our bikes aren't special, but with an apothecary on a bike with them they can be pretty hard.

I wish I could do that. It's etiquette at our FLGS to exchange lists blind. With the way you are doing it, you really aren't getting the full BA experience. I have brought my mech list against Necrons several times now blindly. OUCH.

It's really just more informal:
"Wanna play a game?"
"Sure, what are you playing?"
"My demons,u?"
"BA, I'll go make a list."
"No prob, give me 10 min to make mine to..."

However bringing three vendettas will get responses like "oh, somebody brought THAT list!"

Even at the beginning of 6th Edition I noticed a lot of the problems being mentioned with the BA codex and honestly its depressing. One moment I was running a sea of vehicles with guys that could assault out of a vehicle and still survive pretty well. Also these marines were I5. Losing I5 hurt a lot. Hitting before other marines was amazing, but now all of our stuff has just gotten worse. I really wish BA stuff was priced cheaper, but unfortunately that's not the case. Its best to go find some other army to play competitively.