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 Grey Templar wrote:
The Space Wolves are still a Legion.

They number two thousand Marines.

Even the smallest Legion was five times that number.

Grey Templar wrote:No, the Space Wolves get by on their usefulness to the Imperium.

They gave Roboute the finger and wiped their backsides with his precious codex, while at the same time being utterly loyal to the Imperium and a very useful asset.

That plus the codex being technically optional helps them out.

The Space Wolves are still a Legion.

Either that, or the Space Wolves got by because they were so small and insignificant compared to the rest of the Legions that nobody really paid much attention to the fact that they only split twice.

Ultimately, the Space Wolves were tiny compared to the Ultramarines, or Imperial Fists. Even the Dark Angels and Blood Angels. They split in half, the Wolf Brothers fell to ruin, and that was the end of it. They didn't exactly "give Roboute the finger" because they did exactly what he said to do, split the Legion into Chapters. Their numbers were so small, that it just meant halving it.

These days, the Space Wolves get around the Codex by being too disorganized and spread out to be properly counted, just like the Black Templars. But, unlike the Templars who are at least sneaky about concealing their illegal numbers, the Space Wolves just lack any real central authority aside from the nominal position of Great Wolf. Occasionally he howls and a bunch of companies show up like good dogs. But not always. And rarely, if ever, all of them.

 Grey Templar wrote:

They gave Roboute the finger and wiped their backsides with his precious codex, while at the same time being utterly loyal to the Imperium and a very useful asset.

That plus the codex being technically optional helps them out.

The Space Wolves are still a Legion.

Kind of gave him the finger. Yes, they didn't like him because of how stuck up he was and how strict the Codex was. Leman Russ wanted to make more SW successor chapters and surround the EoT with them to fight against Chaos and protect the systems there. The first successor chapter was the Wolf Brothers, but the Canis Helix gene was too unstable and turned too many of them raving monsters. The geneseed was maybe/supposedly altered by Magnus because he feared dozens more SW chapters.

SW aren't a legion, not nearly enough men.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Space Wolves are still a Legion.

They number two thousand Marines.

Even the smallest Legion was five times that number.

Its unknown what the actual numbers were.

The Space Wolves may have fewer numbers than the original legion did, but they are still well above what a chapter would have.

Organizationally, the Wolves have changed nothing since the Heresy.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, even with thousands of chapters it'd still not be enough to really make a huge difference in such a huge galaxy except in just a rare few battles, IMO. The scale of 40k and the scale of the Adeptus Astartes really don't mesh well.

Exactly. The Red Army during WWII was about 5 million soldiers. (Consider that for a moment) And those five million took a while to conquer tiny Europe. A million Space Marines, as Bad A as they are, simply wouldn't make a difference in a universe so large. GW didn't really think their numbers through on this one.

Those are only the fighting men. The US had ~13 million men in the war effort, but only <2 million were on the front lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rems01 wrote:

Spartak wrote:
I remember reading something from one of the HH events where an author (Graham McNeill maybe) said that there were more Ultra Marines in 30k than there are living space marines in 40K.

Then you're really not remembering correctly. The Ultramarines numbered around 250,000. There are around about 1,000,000 loyalist Space Marines in 40k.

Perhaps you're misremembering the total number of Space Marines in 30k because there were certainly more Space Marines in total in 30k than there are in 40k.

The Ultras had 250k in 30k HH era. The word bearers were the second largest Legions at around 200k. Most Legions had less than 50k.

I agree that there must have been more space marines in 30k than 40k (loyalist at least) so that is making it hard to have 1,000,000 loyalist marines.

1000 Chapters at 1000 Marines is 1 million Space Marines. I'm not seeing how it's hard to have a million loyalist Space Marines.

 Psienesis wrote:
1000 Chapters at 1000 Marines is 1 million Space Marines. I'm not seeing how it's hard to have a million loyalist Space Marines.

there might not be 1000 chapters all the time. Each chapter might not be at full strength all the time.

But then you have chapters like the Black Templars who number 6000 Marines. The "average" number of Space Marines in the galaxy at any one time is one million.

 Psienesis wrote:
But then you have chapters like the Black Templars who number 6000 Marines. The "average" number of Space Marines in the galaxy at any one time is one million.

In all honesty, that number is likely on the VERY conservative side. The Imperium is infamously vast and slow. Chapters sprout up and get wiped out regularly....and sometimes pop up again years, decades, or centuries later with little explanation. It's like trying to count kittens in a junkyard. You think you got them all, but then you round a corner and suddenly there are 19 in a truck tire that you passed 2 minutes ago.

I think in practice, the number is vastly higher.

When looking at numbers, you can also open the can of worms that is "Is the 1,000 marines per chapter the fighting strength, or hard cap" Once you look at supernumerary positions, command, and vehicle crews, the number of marines in a chapter is closer to 1,500.

Or those jobs are just filled by the reserve companies, depending on who you listen too. There are valid arguments both ways.

 Nerobellum wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
But then you have chapters like the Black Templars who number 6000 Marines. The "average" number of Space Marines in the galaxy at any one time is one million.

In all honesty, that number is likely on the VERY conservative side. The Imperium is infamously vast and slow. Chapters sprout up and get wiped out regularly....and sometimes pop up again years, decades, or centuries later with little explanation. It's like trying to count kittens in a junkyard. You think you got them all, but then you round a corner and suddenly there are 19 in a truck tire that you passed 2 minutes ago.

I think in practice, the number is vastly higher.

it's possible, but you end up going against the 30k number. Before the HH, the imperium was richer, larger, more organized, and more technologically advanced. It was able to support more fighting men to push out and conquer the galaxy. Other than the ultras and the word bearers, each legion was ~100k or less meaning you have 2 million space marines max. That at a time when most of the fighting in the imprium was done by space marines, when the imperium was wealthy and could support the largest number of super human warriors, the mechanicus was at is largest and most powerful and could build the most weapons of war for the space marines. Also big E was around to help smooth everything out. Dude could do anything.
During the HH, half the SM left, but the imperium also was devistated, the mechanicus was devistated(and half of them left as well) so I am not seeing how the 40k universe could support more space marines than it could in 30k.

A lot of badly maintained but still functional tech. This is why the standard SM tac squad box comes with a beaky and pre-heresy model shoulderpads.

Also, you're arguing combat impact of superhumans with near-bulletproof armour that is only of use against 2/3 of impacts that would incapacitate the wearer... Just sayin'

 Exergy wrote:


it's possible, but you end up going against the 30k number. Before the HH, the imperium was richer, larger, more organized, and more technologically advanced. It was able to support more fighting men to push out and conquer the galaxy. Other than the ultras and the word bearers, each legion was ~100k or less meaning you have 2 million space marines max. That at a time when most of the fighting in the imprium was done by space marines, when the imperium was wealthy and could support the largest number of super human warriors, the mechanicus was at is largest and most powerful and could build the most weapons of war for the space marines. Also big E was around to help smooth everything out. Dude could do anything.
During the HH, half the SM left, but the imperium also was devistated, the mechanicus was devistated(and half of them left as well) so I am not seeing how the 40k universe could support more space marines than it could in 30k.

40k is unlikely to be able to support more space marines than 30k, which is why it doesn't. Your 30k legions sizes are wrong.

 Exergy wrote:



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 rems01 wrote:

Spartak wrote:
I remember reading something from one of the HH events where an author (Graham McNeill maybe) said that there were more Ultra Marines in 30k than there are living space marines in 40K.

Then you're really not remembering correctly. The Ultramarines numbered around 250,000. There are around about 1,000,000 loyalist Space Marines in 40k.

Perhaps you're misremembering the total number of Space Marines in 30k because there were certainly more Space Marines in total in 30k than there are in 40k.

The Ultras had 250k in 30k HH era. The word bearers were the second largest Legions at around 200k. Most Legions had less than 50k.

I agree that there must have been more space marines in 30k than 40k (loyalist at least) so that is making it hard to have 1,000,000 loyalist marines.

The average legion umber was 100,000 not 50,000. The Heresy Betrayal book states this, Dembski-Bowden (Heresy book series author) himself has stated this Link. 100,000 is the new average size (as opposed to the old assumed 10,000 one during the Index Astartes period).

So in 30k we have about 2 million marines given an average legion size of 100,000 thousand and 20 Legions. Without the missing two that's down to 1.8 million or so. It seems a fair number given there were smaller and larger legions. The Ultramarines were 250,000, the Death Guard 80,000, the World Eaters around the 150,000 mark etc.

In 40k we have 1000 Chapters at 1000 men each this gives 1,000,000 loyalist space marines. Obviously that number is in flux and is only an average/approximation with their being understrength chapters but there are also over-strength ones. Even without Heresy numbers there should still be 1,000,000 loyalist space marines; that's just basic maths and a longstanding canonical fact of the setting.

100k marines through 20 legions = 2 million marines. Fully half of them betrayed the Emperor, leaving 1 million. A large number of that died, leaving likely half again alive, most of whom were ultramarines.

Meaning, we likely have more loyalist marines than at the end of the horus heresy, actually. Which doesn't really make much sense but there you go.