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 Peregrine wrote:
So what? If you're using markerlights to ignore cover you have plenty of things that also ignore armor saves. A 2+ armor save is barely more relevant than a 2+ cover save against Tau.
.

Agreed.

A very nasty build is a Libby with nullzone in a suit squad with MSSS and C&CN. You ignore cover, have AP1 or 2 and force re-rolled invulns.

Surely the first things you shoot at when fighting Tau is the markerlights?
And, with precision shots, you get to single them out.

Doesn't Doom work against vehicles? That's more than likely to let Illic to one-shot a tank.
The problem there is getting the Farseer into range of the target.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Surely the first things you shoot at when fighting Tau is the markerlights?
And, with precision shots, you get to single them out.

Doesn't Doom work against vehicles? That's more than likely to let Illic to one-shot a tank.
The problem there is getting the Farseer into range of the target.

Illic only auto-pens on a six. With Doom, you have a 33% chance or so of getting that six after you hit. Sorry, I would rather have Melta or Lance weapons.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Doesn't Doom work against vehicles? That's more than likely to let Illic to one-shot a tank.

Let's not forget that even rolling a 6 just gets you a penetrating hit, not an automatic kill. You still have to roll a 5+ to kill the vehicle instead of just damaging it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Doesn't Doom work against vehicles? That's more than likely to let Illic to one-shot a tank.

Let's not forget that even rolling a 6 just gets you a penetrating hit, not an automatic kill. You still have to roll a 5+ to kill the vehicle instead of just damaging it.

Yeah, I don't think you would want to use him against vehicles. I think he's more of a character (sgt etc) and MC killer than anything else. At least, that would be what I would use him as. Shooting at a vehicle and expecting to kill it with Nightspear would be the equivalent of a 4th quarter hail Mary in football.

 Peregrine wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
He also has splitfire. You really need to learn the rules before you comment.

What does having splitfire have to do with anything? The point is if you create a sniper squad (or any of the other proposed units) with the intent of hurting vehicles you have a single shot requiring a 6 to do anything while the rest of the squad can't roll dice at all. The fact that you can have the rest of the snipers go shoot an infantry target while your one ineffective shot targets a vehicle doesn't change the fact that the unit's entire contribution to destroying vehicles is one mediocre shot.

What does "the rest of the squad" have anything to do with it when has splitfire? Why do you keep mentioning "the rest of the squad" when that is 100% irrelevant?

Also, he has just as good a shot of killing a Land Raider as a Lascannon, actually better, because of his BS 9. Not to say a great shot, but you are hardly "waisting" his fire power shooting at a Land Raider. His shot is designed to shoot big expensive targets.

Considering he basically auto-hits, a 16.67% to cause an AP 2 Penetrating hit against any vehicle in the game is extremely relevant to his effective use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Let's not forget that even rolling a 6 just gets you a penetrating hit, not an automatic kill. You still have to roll a 5+ to kill the vehicle instead of just damaging it.

Immobilized is generally a pretty good consolation prize, and weapon destroyed is quite good on One Gun tanks.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
What does "the rest of the squad" have anything to do with it when has splitfire? Why do you keep mentioning "the rest of the squad" when that is 100% irrelevant?

Because people keep talking about buying a squad to put him in instead of just treating him as an extra "lascannon" to throw in any random squad.

Also, he has just as good a shot of killing a Land Raider as a Lascannon, actually better, because of his BS 9. Not to say a great shot, but you are hardly "waisting" his fire power shooting at a Land Raider. His shot is designed to shoot big expensive targets.

So what? Single lascannons are almost worthless against Land Raiders. If you're killing AV 14 with LCs you're spamming LCs, and that's something an expensive special character can't do.

Yeah, I don't think you would want to use him against vehicles. I think he's more of a character (sgt etc) and MC killer than anything else. At least, that would be what I would use him as. Shooting at a vehicle and expecting to kill it with Nightspear would be the equivalent of a 4th quarter hail Mary in football.

I wouldn't use him on a cheap vehicle, but his risk/reward ratio when shooting at expensive vehicles is easily in line with shooting at characters. MC's are the no brainer though.

IMHO:

MCs>Expensive Vehicles>Important Banners>Special/Heavy Weapons>Characters>ICs.

Not always the case, but a good general summary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Because people keep talking about buying a squad to put him in instead of just treating him as an extra "lascannon" to throw in any random squad.

Yes, because he has a great USR that buffs the squad (Shrouded). That still is irrelevant to what he is shooting at versus what the unit is shooting at.

So what? Single lascannons are almost worthless against Land Raiders. If you're killing AV 14 with LCs you're spamming LCs, and that's something an expensive special character can't do.

I never said that it should be your only option. Fact is, if you have a Land Raider on the board, loaded with giblets, and you decide instead to shoot his highly destructive shot at some random character, who he has a 4+ to wound, a 4+ to get through LOS, and the has to get through their save on top of it....you probably should have shot the Land Raider. Your chance of doing something to it are about the same if not better, and the rewards of doing something to it are exponentially better.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Put it this way, assume you are shooting at Space Marine Character in cover. You have about a 11% chance to kill him. The reward is the unit know has -1 Ld and has to take a pinning test.

On the flip side, you have a 16.67% chance to do something to a Land Raider, and about a 5.5% chance of killing it outright. Now, later in the game, after the Land Raider has unloaded, maybe this isn't as big of a deal. But early, when its trying to get into position, I think this is definitely worth the chance.

Any vehicle with a super big gun, like Doomsday Arcs and Basicies, are also worth the chance, in my opinion at least.

Edit: Math assumes to hit for simplicity sake, although there is a slight chance you won't.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Yes, because he has a great USR that buffs the squad (Shrouded). That still is irrelevant to what he is shooting at versus what the unit is shooting at.

No, it's very relevant. What the rest of the unit shoots at determines whether or not he will be moving/assaulting, where he will be and what he will have clear shots to, etc. And this is especially true if you're talking about a squad that you might not have in your list if you weren't taking him.

Your chance of doing something to it are about the same if not better, and the rewards of doing something to it are exponentially better.

You're assuming that you're shooting at characters instead of weapon upgrades (which don't usually have LOS). I'd rather have a ~50% chance of taking a melta gun out of a squad than a much smaller chance of maybe doing something to a Land Raider. I might save Illic for last in case I need to take a desperation shot after every other anti-tank option has failed, but even then I'd only do it if the Land Raider absolutely must be stopped that turn.

On the flip side, you have a 16.67% chance to do something to a Land Raider, and about a 5.5% chance of killing it outright.

Only if you ignore cover.

Edit: Math assumes to hit for simplicity sake, although there is a slight chance you won't.

That "slight" chance is 5.5%, the same as the chance of a one-shot kill on a Land Raider with no cover. So if the chance of missing the shot is too small to pay attention to the chance of exploding a Land Raider is certainly too small to consider.

Odds of Illic outright killing a AV14 vehicle in one shot:
(5/6 + 1/6*2/3) * 1/6 *1/3 = 17/18 * 1/18 = 17/324 or ~5.2%

Odds of a Marine with a Lascannon killing a AV 14 vehicle in one shot:
2/3 * 1/6 * 1/3 = 2/36 = 1/18 = 12/324 or ~3.7%

Both assume no cover.

So Illic has a roughly 1.5% better probability of killing a Land Raider in one shot than Marine Joe, but costs significantly more and has to be either alone or the warlord to not waste an entire unit's shooting on a Land Raider. Either way, there are better options for killing a Land Raider. Like a Guardian with a Bright Lance (odds of an outright kill: 24/324, or about 7.5%)

EDIT: Whoops, used AP1 modifier in place of AP2. Numbers above are corrected.

No, it's very relevant. What the rest of the unit shoots at determines whether or not he will be moving/assaulting, where he will be and what he will have clear shots to, etc. And this is especially true if you're talking about a squad that you might not have in your list if you weren't taking him.

Assuming its a unit that also shoots at long range, like Rangers or Dark Reapers, it's largely irrelevant.

You're assuming that you're shooting at characters instead of weapon upgrades (which don't usually have LOS). I'd rather have a ~50% chance of taking a melta gun out of a squad than a much smaller chance of maybe doing something to a Land Raider. I might save Illic for last in case I need to take a desperation shot after every other anti-tank option has failed, but even then I'd only do it if the Land Raider absolutely must be stopped that turn

That's kind of my point, but remember it is not ~50%, it's about 50% chance just to wound. You still have to get through either the armor save (if you didn't rend) or the cover save (if you did).

Only if you ignore cover.

Big targets like Land Raiders don't always have cover, but fair enough. That would certainly factor into your decision if they did.

That "slight" chance is 5.5%, the same as the chance of a one-shot kill on a Land Raider with no cover. So if the chance of missing the shot is too small to pay attention to the chance of exploding a Land Raider is certainly too small to consider.

Eitherway, that has no bearing on Illic's target and their opportunity cost, because it will be equal in both situations. And, again, he has a 16.67% chance to do something to the LR, one shotting is just the icing on the cake.

So Illic has a roughly 1.5% better probability of killing a Land Raider in one shot than Marine Joe, but costs significantly more and has to be either alone or the warlord to not waste an entire unit's shooting on a Land Raider. Either way, there are better options for killing a Land Raider. Like a Guardian with a Bright Lance (odds of an outright kill: 24/324, or about 7.5%)

That is completely missing the point. A significant portion of his cost are tied up in being your HQ, your Warlord (and he is a very good one at that), unlocking PFs, and giving Shrouded to an entire unit. I'm not saying you should take Illic just for his chance to kill a LR. I'm saying if you do have Illic, an LR, or similarly expensive vehicle, is a good target to shoot at. The Risk/Reward favors expensive vehicles over just about any other target short of MCs, and ICs with no body guard I guess.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

That's kind of my point, but remember it is not ~50%, it's about 50% chance just to wound. You still have to get through either the armor save (if you didn't rend) or the cover save (if you did).

So Illic has a roughly 1.5% better probability of killing a Land Raider in one shot than Marine Joe, but costs significantly more and has to be either alone or the warlord to not waste an entire unit's shooting on a Land Raider. Either way, there are better options for killing a Land Raider. Like a Guardian with a Bright Lance (odds of an outright kill: 24/324, or about 7.5%)

That is completely missing the point. A significant portion of his cost are tied up in being your HQ, your Warlord (and he is a very good one at that), unlocking PFs, and giving Shrouded to an entire unit. I'm not saying you should take Illic just for his chance to kill a LR. I'm saying if you do have Illic, an LR, or similarly expensive vehicle, is a good target to shoot at. The Risk/Reward favors expensive vehicles over just about any other target short of MCs, and ICs with no body guard I guess.

For the first, Illic's rifle is AP2, so no armour saves for anyone. It's Cover/Invulnerable or bust. And as most special weapon wielders don't have Invulnerables, and we seem to be universally assuming no Cover, that roughly 50% (actually about 47%) is for a special weapon kill.

And it's not missing the point. It's pointing out that his chance to kill a Land Raider is so minute that it's a desperation play. You'd shoot the Land Raider only if there was absolutely nothing else to fire at, because 95% of the time he isn't going to do anything useful. Whereas 47% of the time he will kill Marine Joe with a Lascannon, which will trigger a pinning test and potentially neutralise a Devastator Squad for a turn. Not a high points value return, but if it saves your own armour from the enemy anti-tank it's likely more valuable. Not to mention that any mates he's brought with him will be more likely to kill Devastators than Land Raiders, meaning you can take a different Warlord and get an overall more useful warlord trait.

For the first, Illic's rifle is AP2, so no armour saves for anyone. It's Cover/Invulnerable or bust. And as most special weapon wielders don't have Invulnerables, and we seem to be universally assuming no Cover, that roughly 50% (actually about 47%) is for a special weapon kill.

Fair point. Forgot about that. But there is a much better chance an infantry model has a cover save the a Land Raider.

And it's not missing the point. It's pointing out that his chance to kill a Land Raider is so minute that it's a desperation play. You'd shoot the Land Raider only if there was absolutely nothing else to fire at, because 95% of the time he isn't going to do anything useful. Whereas 47% of the time he will kill Marine Joe with a Lascannon, which will trigger a pinning test and potentially neutralise a Devastator Squad for a turn. Not a high points value return, but if it saves your own armour from the enemy anti-tank it's likely more valuable. Not to mention that any mates he's brought with him will be more likely to kill Devastators than Land Raiders, meaning you can take a different Warlord and get an overall more useful warlord trait.

But it's not a 47% chance, because they will have a cover save. Infantry units, particularly dev squads, almost always have a cover save. Huge expensive vehicles don't always have one.

Also, >15% of the time he will do some other form of damage to the big expensive vehicle, which could very easily have the same net impact as killing a single lascannon in the dev squad.

I agree that shooting heavy/special weapons is another good use of him, but I certainly don't agree that it would always be superior to shooting a 250 point vehicle with 250+ points of cargo that could completely change the game for you.

I also think he makes a great Warlord, as his unit is inherently difficult to kill, so I'm not sure I would ever prefer any other Warlord (assuming you are taking Illic in the first place), who would still have a chance of getting splitfire, and likely would make less use of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To me, killing the huge expensive vehicle is game changing. Killing a couple of heavy/special weapons over the course of the game is nice, but not game changing. I'm going for the game changing move.

Sure, an Infantry model has a much easier time getting a cover save than a Land Raider, but that's not saying that it's hard to get a Land Raider at least a 5+ cover. Even if you play on planet bowling ball a Rhino is enough to cover 25% of a Land Raider facing, at which point your chance of killing goes down to about 3.5%. The Devastator in a ruin is going to die about 23.5% of the time. The expected point value in kills per shot is 8.75 for the Land Raider vs. 7.99 for the Devastator. Not an amazing return on investment.

So what we can gather from this discussion is that he is very bad at killing Infantry models, and significantly worse at killing vehicles. So he's no good at killing anything, which isn't a particularly flattering statement. This is an artifact of a combination of the Sniper rules (especially the 4+ to wound) and Look out Sir! (so he can't realistically target high value infantry models.)

The only things you get for taking Illic as your warlord specifically are:
1. He can split fire, so he can fire ineffectually against a different target to his meat shields.
2. You don't need to take another HQ, so you have more points to spend on other units.
3. Shrouding makes him hard to kill, so it's easier to avoid giving up the VP for losing your warlord.

An Autarch is going to make better use of Split Fire because he can take a decent ranged weapon like a Fusion Gun or Reaper Missile Launcher. Number 2 is nice, but if the game isn't a small one you're probably going to take a Farseer or Autarch as well anyway, in which case they may as well be the Warlord and get a useful Warlord trait for the army as a whole. Worst thing that happens is that they get split fire without having a useful ranged weapon, in which case they are only marginally worse at using their trait than Illic.

So he's no good at killing anything

Holy non sequitor bat man. MCs are still a thing, and there aren't many single shots in the game I would rather point at an MC then Illic's gun. AP2 and that Distort rule is quite relevant. MCs aren't just for Nids anymore. I would say in the current meta, with things like Riptides dominating, being good at killing MCs is superior to being good at killing tanks.


For that reason, I'm not sure I would consider either a Fusion Gun or a Missle Launcher strictly better though. Fusion Gun is better at shooting vehicles, but has no where near the range, and the Missile Launcher is strictly inferior at shooting anything with multiple wounds and/or 2+ armor saves.

Also, your Autarch doesn't have guaranteed precision with his shot either.

 bobtheoverlord wrote:
I think a lot of you are forgetting that when putting him on a quad gun, alot of his BS is going to waste as the thing is twin linked anyway. He is just as good as a BS 5 marine and only marginally better than a guardian at that job, so saying that he is THE person for the quad gun is a bit wrong. I must say though, there are some other good points being raised though.

Really he's as good as a BS 5 guardsman because he doesn't have the T or Sv or a marine. I think I was the first person to making the point about putting him on a quad gun and maybe the first person to make a case for Illic so I want to comment on the discussion. The point of putting him on a quad-gun (or Icarus cannon) wasn't that he's the best character in our book to do it (he's not), it's that Illic is borderline useless without a gun to replace his Voidbringer. If you take him in an outflanking serpent or with slow and purposeful Reapers marching around the back lines then you are only using him for his USR and because he unlocks Pathfinders.

I don't think that Illic is a strong choice. I think that some people are overstating his capabilities and other people are attacking those who are pointing out what Illic can do. Illic isn't a good choice, please recognize that most people are trying to salvage him for those who have bought the model or otherwise want to try him out so it's fruitless to call us brain damaged for suggesting he has a 5.3% chance (or whatever) to kill a Land Raider or any vehicle really. If he doesn't have a MC to shoot at, and you don't have a quad-gun or Icarus cannon then the aptly-termed "Hail Mary" play might just be the best choice because he's fairly garbage at shooting anything else. Sure he has a 47.2% chance to remove a special weapons infantry (which is good too), but the entire Eldar army is good against infantry and you might not have enough lances to bring down a Land Raider. It's good to know that you have 1/20 chance to take it out in the situation that you don't have a gun emplacement and your army can't deal with the Land Raider. It's not a good chance but Illic is just a bad character and this could salvage him in some games.

To summarize, he's bad because:
- he's expensive
- Pathfinders aren't good
- he has to be your Warlord in order to be effective and his warlord trait is mediocre
- as a Warlord, he's very fragile without an invulnerable save and only 5+ armor; he has Shrouded but we know cover saves aren't reliable
- he has a low chance to kill anything in any given turn relative to his cost
- he requires certain things to be purchased in order to make him at all useful

What he can do:
- man a quad-gun or Icarus cannon which means that he actually can contribute at range
- Sharpshot lets you shoot this gun at characters or special weapons which means he can remove the biggest threats from units
- lets you buy Pathfinders which are also situationally useful (but I'm pretty sure they are a trap)
- contributes Shrouded to a unit which is otherwise ignored when he Split Fires as your Warlord
- deploy with any squad in reserve, then outflank them (and their Wave Serpent) onto the board to attack the vulnerable back line
- deploy with Rangers, Pathfinders or Striking Scorpions and use his special infiltrate; this is probably only useful on Scorpions to get them into assault more quickly

He is probably best used with a unit of Dark Reapers behind an ADL with an Icarus cannon. If your gun emplacement is destroyed and Illic is not, then you can move slow & purposeful up the field and you might be able to take out a Monstrous Creature or vehicle with his Voidbringer. If he can't manage this then his is probably not going to be worth his points this game. Now you understand the risks, you're probably better off taking any other HQ choice but if you want a Master Pathfinder then this is how to use him.

I might be being really stupid here- But where does it say that Illic's 'walker of the hidden path' special rule is not applicable to units without infiltrate?

 TWilkins wrote:
I might be being really stupid here- But where does it say that Illic's 'walker of the hidden path' special rule is not applicable to units without infiltrate?

In the rules for deployment. The only way to attach an IC to a unit without putting the unit in reserve (where it can't infiltrate) is to put it on the table in coherency with the unit, and all units without infiltrate must be on the table before you deploy infiltrators. So by the time you deploy the IC there's nothing left to deploy with it.

Oh okay-
I got a bit confused by the phrasing in the book-
"Units that contain at least one model
with this special rule are deployed last,
after all other units"
It just sounds as if you can add single models with infiltrate to a unit.

I don't think that Illic is a strong choice. I think that some people are overstating his capabilities and other people are attacking those who are pointing out what Illic can do. Illic isn't a good choice, please recognize that most people are trying to salvage him for those who have bought the model or otherwise want to try him out so it's fruitless to call us brain damaged for suggesting he has a 5.3% chance (or whatever) to kill a Land Raider or any vehicle really. If he doesn't have a MC to shoot at, and you don't have a quad-gun or Icarus cannon then the aptly-termed "Hail Mary" play might just be the best choice because he's fairly garbage at shooting anything else. Sure he has a 47.2% chance to remove a special weapons infantry (which is good too), but the entire Eldar army is good against infantry and you might not have enough lances to bring down a Land Raider. It's good to know that you have 1/20 chance to take it out in the situation that you don't have a gun emplacement and your army can't deal with the Land Raider. It's not a good chance but Illic is just a bad character and this could salvage him in some games.

I don't think that's what is happening at all. You seem to be relying on his killing power alone to justify his points, while maintaining he does other things, but then going back to his killing power alone to justify his points.

Shrouded for a unit is worth a considerable amount of points.

Just a couple of squads of Pathfinders are an effective way to cap objectives (as they have superior RPP numbers to Rangers) while adding to the dynamic Illic himself adds, IE the ability to remove troublesome models from the board.

I never understand the "he's good at this but so are other units so who cares" argument. If he's good at it, he's good at it.

Outside of MC's, I think Banners are a quite relevant target, and I still contest that expensive vehicles are a relevant target. People keep throwing out the 5.3% as if he gets one shot, all game, and must kill the LR or he's useless. He should get 5 to 7 shots in a game. Doing other damage to an expensive vehicle can be useful too. If you shoot an expensive vehicle 5 to 7 times you have a very good chance of seriously crippling it, and a decent shot of removing it as a threat. All from a character that adds a lot more to the table outside of their personal killing prowess.

Anyway, close the book on him if you want. I tend to disagree but I think we've all said what we can at this point.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I don't think that Illic is a strong choice. I think that some people are overstating his capabilities and other people are attacking those who are pointing out what Illic can do. Illic isn't a good choice, please recognize that most people are trying to salvage him for those who have bought the model or otherwise want to try him out so it's fruitless to call us brain damaged for suggesting he has a 5.3% chance (or whatever) to kill a Land Raider or any vehicle really. If he doesn't have a MC to shoot at, and you don't have a quad-gun or Icarus cannon then the aptly-termed "Hail Mary" play might just be the best choice because he's fairly garbage at shooting anything else. Sure he has a 47.2% chance to remove a special weapons infantry (which is good too), but the entire Eldar army is good against infantry and you might not have enough lances to bring down a Land Raider. It's good to know that you have 1/20 chance to take it out in the situation that you don't have a gun emplacement and your army can't deal with the Land Raider. It's not a good chance but Illic is just a bad character and this could salvage him in some games.

I don't think that's what is happening at all. You seem to be relying on his killing power alone to justify his points, while maintaining he does other things, but then going back to his killing power alone to justify his points.

Shrouded for a unit is worth a considerable amount of points.

Just a couple of squads of Pathfinders are an effective way to cap objectives (as they have superior RPP numbers to Rangers) while adding to the dynamic Illic himself adds, IE the ability to remove troublesome models from the board.

I never understand the "he's good at this but so are other units so who cares" argument. If he's good at it, he's good at it.

Outside of MC's, I think Banners are a quite relevant target, and I still contest that expensive vehicles are a relevant target. People keep throwing out the 5.3% as if he gets one shot, all game, and must kill the LR or he's useless. He should get 5 to 7 shots in a game. Doing other damage to an expensive vehicle can be useful too. If you shoot an expensive vehicle 5 to 7 times you have a very good chance of seriously crippling it, and a decent shot of removing it as a threat. All from a character that adds a lot more to the table outside of their personal killing prowess.

Anyway, close the book on him if you want. I tend to disagree but I think we've all said what we can at this point.

I see your point, and I feel like that's the only reason Illic has split fire; to give him enough opportunities to shoot at what he wants to. However, I don't think it's a wise investment, at least not against vehicles, MAYBE against MC's or other non-EW multi-wound models, simply because it's still just a single shot a turn. Sure, you might get that 6 and blow that land raider up or that six and send the Wraithknight to Narnia, but that's just it. It's like 15% chance to roll a six, 30% with re-rolls to wound.

Voidbringer is distort. This means he wounds on 2's and on a 6 its inatant death. This almost means a dead Comissar PER ROUND. still overpriced, but I would surely run him if he was 20 points cheaper and hadn't the walker of the hidden path upgrade.

bahzakhain wrote:
Voidbringer is distort. This means he wounds on 2's and on a 6 its inatant death. This almost means a dead Comissar PER ROUND. still overpriced, but I would surely run him if he was 20 points cheaper and hadn't the walker of the hidden path upgrade.

No, he still wounds on a 4+ are the sniper rule.

 McNinja wrote:

bahzakhain wrote:
Voidbringer is distort. This means he wounds on 2's and on a 6 its inatant death. This almost means a dead Comissar PER ROUND. still overpriced, but I would surely run him if he was 20 points cheaper and hadn't the walker of the hidden path upgrade.

No, he still wounds on a 4+ are the sniper rule.

Plus the commissar will have at least a 4+ Look Out Sir! So 25% of your hits will result in a dead Commissar, while another 25% will result in a dead Guardsman and a laughing Commissar.

Again, assuming they aren't hiding behind a bush. If they are, then it's 1/6 kill a Commissar, 1/6 kill a Guardsman and 2/3 do nothing.

How do you see which rule takes precedence over another? like, this time, sniper over distort?

bahzakhain wrote:
How do you see which rule takes precedence over another? like, this time, sniper over distort?

You read the Distort rule and realise it has no effect on the roll to wound at all. Well, almost none. It certainly doesn't make a weapon wound on a 2+.

Right.. still stuck in 5th ed mindset. shoot me!

We'll use voidbringer. You'll probably be fine.