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Flyer's are fine. The issue to me, is flyer's that came out before 6th edition, namely, the vendetta, and the night scythe. The stormraven is allright, because it at least cost's a fortune in points, making spamming them ineffective.

Annoyingly, the issue could be fixed easily, if GW just FAQ'd it so that you could only take 3 night-scythes per army. And the IG will be updated within 12 months surely, and I can almost guarantee they will bump up the cost of the Vendetta.

Or, a much easier solution, would be to make it so flyer's actually count towards your reserve allowance. Reserve allowance is there to ensure you start the game with 50% of your army on the table, flyers basically ignore that rule to the point where you can have 95% of your army in reserves.

The scale of 40K is too small for fliers, to be realistic about it. If fliers had been implemented smartly, they could have added things to the game, but smart rules don't really lend themselves to selling a lot of models.

Ultimately, there was a place for fliers and titans and superheavies, and it was called Epic.

However, Epic never really caught on, and, well, people like to buy big expensive models and Games Workshop likes to sell big, expensive models.

And thus, fliers, and Apocalypse.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The scale of 40K is too small for fliers, to be realistic about it. If fliers had been implemented smartly, they could have added things to the game, but smart rules don't really lend themselves to selling a lot of models.

Ultimately, there was a place for fliers and titans and superheavies, and it was called Epic.

However, Epic never really caught on, and, well, people like to buy big expensive models and Games Workshop likes to sell big, expensive models.

And thus, fliers, and Apocalypse.

Na, I think flyer's fit, just more in a helicopter-style role than an actual plane role. And with all the anti-grav engines, that's pretty much what they are. (Except of course the orks, but we all know they are just mad enough to bring a plane to a firefight. xD )

I like fliers. They are nice models (I love the Valkyrie kit and the Heldrake) and they give a new element to the battlefield. I just wish they were just another kind of unit instead of the stars of the show as the rules make them out to be.

 Kain wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:
Fliers are not a must for me by any means, I have extremly seldom used a flying hive tyrant, and it did not impress me that much. But then again none of players I play with really embraced the fliers. A few of them have a few, mainly the Ork players. But I find that they are by no means horridly broken or that difficult to shoot down. Sheer weigth of fire will kill any fliers

I have this lovely 18 vendetta list for you to fight at 3k points.

Seems brutal. Ouch.

 Ailaros wrote:
And despite being so fast that they're difficult to hit, they can do a 90 degree turn on a pin head and some of them can do that TWICE.

You are complaining about a mechanic that is being used to simulate the manuverability. The flier doesn't move and then just turn on a dime, the flier banks and turns. We don't measure "curves" on the board with our rulers, that would be impractible. Same with the Vector Dancer ability, the flier didn't turn-move-turn, he banked hard and did a U-turn in the air.

I for one have no issue with how fliers move, you just have to use your imagination.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

at least the Necron ones have paper armor.

*Glares at the Vendetta*

Yeah, I think the main problem is with the Flyers themselves, not with the Unit Type. If all fliers were like the Crimson Hunter for example, which is neither fantastic nor rubbish, then I think flyers would be much more welcomed. It's another dynamic to the game though, which is good because, as far as tactics and planning goes, there's another element to consider, which makes it more challenging, which is great in my opinion.

The thing that annoys me though is ADLs. Especially with Flyers being around, they're almost a no-brainer and as most people (myself proudly not among them) can't be bothered to convert ADLs specific to their army, many battle lines end up looking far similar than they should.

I have a wonderfully done Eldar ADL system made up as a prize from a tournament. ADLs are great against a flyer. Against 2-3 Helldrakes or Vendettas? Or 4+ Scythes? Not enough Interceptor. And the Eldar don't have enough cost-effecient Skyfire aside from that ADL to put a dent in those armies. The only trick is PewPewSerpents and Warp Spiders...and neither have Skyfire. LoL

Ill chime in with 5th edition flyers being the issue. Of the current flyers (6th) only the Helldrake is auto include, even considered optimal. The Vendetta/Night Scythes of the world are just too cheap and have troop transport capabilities that we wont see for that cheap going forward.

I personally dislike the flyers. This doesn't come from some grievance about balance, (of course any new edition to a game will cause change in the meta), but simply due to my feelings that they are out of place on a standard game of 40k.

The rules of a turn based game do not suit fast flyers, they feel boxy and quite limited in their movement - the opposite of a modern day aircraft, let alone one in a universe of daemons and laser guns.

A standard game of 40k involves 2 or more armies of a relatively small size. Flyers act more as support for an army, and could offer additional scenarios or expansions, but to have them in every game feels like they have been crowbar'd in where they were not wanted. To me it feels like a supplement like city fight or apoc has been added to the main game, regardless of if the players actually wanted it.

I understand some players wished to have flyers in the game, but I believe it would have been better if Death from the Skies had been an optional add on. Skimmers cover the roll of ground support and transport, like helicopters do today, - true aircraft shouldn't be included in a standard tactical squad based game, as their use and portrayal do not fit well enough in the existing confines of the game.

First, Eldar fliers should have been their fast skimmers with the 'star drive' upgrade (doubling the cost or so).

Weight of fire sounds good, up until a BS4 gun line army can put every shot into a flier and not damage it. Especially when said flier can take out a decent chunk of the army each turn.

AV12 is a bit strong to take down with weight of fire. Perhaps any dakka-tastic flier should be capped at AV11.

I love the helo feel of some of the fliers, and the paper-but-aggrezive feel of others works well too, but certain fliers are just plain game breaking right now.

Perhaps another thing that would help would be a 2+ cover save instead of hit-on-6s...

If a flier is modeled and has the rules of a "Flier" then I most certainly think the best way to keep the hit on 6s should remain if the can only accomplish either shooting at another flyer or a strafing run and immediately going off the board. This would then somewhat accomplish how real aircraft work....making a U-turn in mid air is somewhat not possible with most aricraft. A helio....another story!

I don't like the current flier rules. The RT ones were much better and more fun.

I like the models... some of them anyway.

The rules... not so much.

I have yet to face the Necron flyers but I have to deal with FMCs all the time.

I think GW could refit the rules and make them much more enjoyable but until then I think our complaints are just.

I use a Dakkajet and no one seems to care. It tends to arrive, kill a squad of something and then gets shot down.

Hopefully it just crashes on top of something. One game, mine crushed a Ravenwing command squad lol!

Purposefully releasing overpowered rules to sell new models.

Pretty much the exact opposite of a "good thing" for 40k.

With enough interceptor weapons you can completely negate them, and often times you can just completely dominate the ground game and ignore the flyers, maybe even table them by turn 3 if the flyers don't come in.

So this means tau or using FW. The problem with flyers is how resilient their are in an I go-You go game system. And from the looks of some codex it doesn't look as if the new codex would fix stuff for all armies. DA don't have a viable flyer and suffer a lot more then other meq from helldrakes. Playing chaos without helldrakes makes no sense , unless someone wants to run an army with zombis and stall the game. Tau and armies with good flyers have good anwsers to other flyers and that is it ., but because I play IG am ok with it .

 Trondheim wrote:
Sheer weigth of fire will kill any fliers

Not every army can put out enough shots, and not every flier cares about the basic guns of enemy troops. Ork fliers are fine because even basic troops (except for guardsmen) can threaten them. Those with AV11+ are less fine, simply because not every army has the weight of Strength 5+ fire to do anything about them.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:
Fliers are not a must for me by any means, I have extremly seldom used a flying hive tyrant, and it did not impress me that much. But then again none of players I play with really embraced the fliers. A few of them have a few, mainly the Ork players. But I find that they are by no means horridly broken or that difficult to shoot down. Sheer weigth of fire will kill any fliers

I have this lovely 18 vendetta list for you to fight at 3k points.

Seems brutal. Ouch.

With door guns it's my "who needs friends?" list.