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My hardest time comes from balancing fluff with efficiency in my lists.

I LOVE warp spiders, for example. I liked in DoW, I like their fluff, I like how effective they are on the table top (though I was VERY upset when I started playing and found out they did not, in fact, have haywire grenades...), but Ulthwe does not have very many aspect warriors, and thus I always try to take no more than 1 squad of any particular aspect, and always no more than 5 models of them. The only exception being a 6th if it's an exarch.

Which leaves me with a lot of guardians. But I shouldn't take too many jetbikes because that's "that other street-racing" craftworld's deal, so I'm trying to find effective uses of guardians and storm guardians... It's not been easy lol.

Fortunately , war walkers and other vehicles (except flyers) are supposedly piloted by guardians/guardian equivalent units, so that helps a lot lol. To give you an idea of how much I want to make a fluffy ulthwe list: I bought 2 Farseer and 8 Warlock conversion kits from Chapterhouse studios for Jetbikes for a seer council. I'll let you do the math on how much that was...

 HerbaciousT wrote:

Nefrugle wrote:
I use pyrovores in fun games.

They are amazing.

Raveners and a Tyrannofex are in my Tourney lists.....

The first bit of that post made me do a double take.

I like using a variety of units, but Pyrovores have no redeeming qualities.

Raveners I like and use often. Ive not used a Tyrannofex yet though!

Pyrovores in a pod ( i dont have the pyrovore models ... proxy biovores ). They are amazing!

Tyrannofex's are either awesome sauce or just a limp wrist hanging around pointlessly

It's like trying to prove the underdogs can be useul.

I like doing this

Depends on what it is, sometimes its just an awesome model and its got an illusion its good but in truth its meh.

Dakkajets for me, for an example. Everyone speaks soooo highly on it on its anti-flier capabilities and crazy dakka. It never justifies the costs for me as its so squishy it MIGHT break even before dying, so i never use it. Which blows because i have 5 of the damn things lol tempted to sell the 2 that are still factory sealed since theyre the only ork model that goes on ebay full price still.

I play in the name of fun and to socialize. The lists I field are loosely based on fluff and the models I like, so yes, I do field thousand sons, berserkers, Forgefiends and chaos land raiders.
I ran Kharn in a thousand son land raider last weekend and I laughed when he took his own last wound via get hot.

Been thinking about building a list with only raptors, terminators and either Huron or Ahriman just to deep flank and deep strike as much as possible. It might not be competitive at all but it sounds fun.

 Peregrine wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
Does anyone find themselves trying to avoid the really popular units in codices?

Nope, I like popular units. Popular units are usually good units, and why would I avoid things that will help me win?

If you have a goal other than winning

Scarab bases. I'm always throwing a list together last minute, and they always find a way to use some of my points.

 Peregrine wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
Does anyone find themselves trying to avoid the really popular units in codices?

Nope, I like popular units. Popular units are usually good units, and why would I avoid things that will help me win?

Because they don't fit with my army's look, feel and theme.
Because I want to make the game more fun for my opponent.
Because I learn more from using a bad unit well than a good unit.
Because when I do win, I know that I did it, not the super-powerful units my codex happens to have.

The last one is really the key for me - I want to know that I can win, not my codex. Taking the latest netlist or super-army and beating an opponent only proves you can google and have lots of money.

Because I learn more from using a bad unit well than a good unit.

that makes no sense , it like saying that you become a better driver just because you drive a broken car. Your at best a good bad car driver. If someone learns to play a good army good he will see good effects of it , if someone learns to play a bad army "good" he will only learn that he needs luck or inexpirianced opponents to win and that against good players with good armies he is always autoclassed.

Makumba wrote:

Because I learn more from using a bad unit well than a good unit.

that makes no sense , it like saying that you become a better driver just because you drive a broken car. Your at best a good bad car driver. If someone learns to play a good army good he will see good effects of it , if someone learns to play a bad army "good" he will only learn that he needs luck or inexpirianced opponents to win and that against good players with good armies he is always autoclassed.

Incorrect. Being able to win with a poor army means you were the better player, while winnng wih a good army just means you play a better army. Ever watch a match between two good players playing optimized armies? It boils down to who went first and who rolled better. Conversely, ever watch a good player use an underdog army to beat an optimized army? Sure does show who the better player was.

I run a Ghostwing, which is generally considered one of the least optimized GK army builds. Yet I have more fun being challenged in game play than I do just rolling over someone that brought a "bad" army.

SJ

I play Chaos and Necrons at the moment, and while it's clear we have some of the best Flyers in the game I've been avoiding trying to take them. The general consensus appears to be that Chaos can't win without Heldrakes, yet I'm on a current 5/1/0 W/D/L streak with my army without taking even a single one. Mainly it's as I'm not a fan of the model but I just don't see the appeal, same with the Night Scythe. I have 2 Doom Scythes in the army but I wouldn't go to the Flying Bakery level and take 5-6 Night Scythes in addition as well.

Well, in the previous incarnation of the Eldar codex I often ran a Seer Council on foot. Fun to play but much harder to pull off than a Council on jetbikes. Now I don't run Councils anymore. Too expensive for my liking and casting Warlocks with Ld 8 are meh.

heldrakes aren't exactly gamebreaking, you just have to bring things that can deal with fliers - you'd be a fool not to really. so the heldrake gets a turn of killing your stuff - it'd be unfair if it didn't, if you think about it. and it's not as if it can kill anything it wants, regardless of if it's an AV14 vehicle, monster, or a horde (cough-psycannonspam-cough). just bring some guns to bring down a flier, beit through mass shooting or skyfiring models.

I'm much of the same opinion, at least most of the time.

This especially goes for Tyranids. I'm a good, tactical player, so I can see, even without the Internet, that Tervigons and Flyrants are the best units available. However, I just don't use them. I don't use the former because I really don't like the idea of them and the latter because I don't want to fork out for another Tyrant.

While I use certain things that people do consider competitive, like Doom and Trygons (but they're awesomely cool anyway), the main body of my list is made up by Hormagaunts, with a few Termagants and Warriors. I run the Swarmlord as my HQ, and my elites are usually taken up by Venomthropes, Ymargls and the Doom.

ncorrect. Being able to win with a poor army means you were the better player, while winnng wih a good army just means you play a better army.

good army with good player = easier win , good options for both tailoring and all comers lists
good army with bad/new player =better chance to win . Being carried means you can make a come back ,if you mess something up. You can actualy learn something , because your army doesn't die as fast as a bad one

bad army with a good player = possible win ,much bigger problems with bad match ups . real problems when you play against a good player with a good list

bad army with a bad/new player= you get owned hard by both good players with good armies , people like you with good armies and even people with better skills then you with bad armies. Army offten gives the feeling that you can't do anything and that stuff that is normal is actualy OP .

Conversely, ever watch a good player use an underdog army to beat an optimized army? Sure does show who the better player was

You mean lucky or it somehow the bad list is a counter set up to the good army .

heldrakes aren't exactly gamebreaking, you just have to bring things that can deal with fliers - you'd be a fool not to really. so the heldrake gets a turn of killing your stuff - it'd be unfair if it didn't

1500 pts DA or biker lists no FW models and don't make a list with handicaps against necron or IG or tau .

Gear against the meta by taking what the meta doesn't expect. Don't take the popular stuff and nobody who gears against the meta will know how to handle you. I've had good luck with that.

Makumba wrote:

Conversely, ever watch a good player use an underdog army to beat an optimized army? Sure does show who the better player was

You mean lucky or it somehow the bad list is a counter set up to the good army .

What you're effectively saying there is that there's no player skill involved whatsoever, beyond the basic "I know how to play the game"...

The way I see it is you have the following options:

- You want to win
or
- You want to win

If you take a netlist you're not a good player, you've just got a good army. But if you take an underdog force and win, then you're a good player.

Even if you don't win you'll still learn more than the winner - ever heard the phrase "You learn from your mistakes?" If your force is so simple to use, so hard to kill and so deadly to the enemy then you effectively can't make a mistake - and so you don't actually learn anything.

Even the cheesiest of abuse lists aren't that bad.

 Hedgehog wrote:

If you take a netlist you're not a good player, you've just got a good army. But if you take an underdog force and win, then you're a good player.

I get what you're getting at, but you're not per definition a good player just because you win with an underdog force, just like you don't have to be a bad player because you play a netlist, as your post seems to imply (sorry if I read into things that wasn't there).

If you want to try something really different, and get you and your regular opponent out of their comfort zone try this...

Gather all of each players model collection for a chosen army, and allow your OPPONENT to make your army from your codex to a agreed upon point total, each player should endeavor to make the worst legal army.

Then play a random mission using that list, and no cheating by hiding the sub-perfect models in your collection

You will find this is a really fun game, for when you have the time, and a friendly player base.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Hedgehog wrote:

If you take a netlist you're not a good player, you've just got a good army. But if you take an underdog force and win, then you're a good player.

I get what you're getting at, but you're not per definition a good player just because you win with an underdog force, just like you don't have to be a bad player because you play a netlist, as your post seems to imply (sorry if I read into things that wasn't there).

True, that was a bit unclear. Winning with a netlist doesn't mean you aren't a good player anyway - but you're certainly not pushing yourself. It's the equivalent to playing a computer game on 'easy' mode - sure you can do it, but don't you want something a little more challenging?

Winning with a netlist doesn't mean you aren't a good player anyway - but you're certainly not pushing yourself. It's the equivalent to playing a computer game on 'easy' mode - sure you can do it, but don't you want something a little more challenging?

100% this. Challenge yourself, up the difficulty a bit.

I have two Annihilation Barges that I hardly field.

Around 7 Canoptek Wraiths, but I have only fielded them once.
And I only have those seven because I loved the model and 4 others were included in extremely good deals on our national eBay.

And I only have one Flyer for my Necrons

I don't need netlists to win and I don't like winning like that.