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That's a pretty dumb statement.

Dwellers is awesome, if you roll it and want to throw 6 dice at it - which of course only results in a 26% of Irresistible force.

You take Life for many reasons. - In no particular order:

1. Low casting value spells - small risk in casting them & you can potentially get many of them off.

2. The lore attribute - I like keeping characters and monsters alive.

3. Flesh to Stone - the +2 or +4 version are awesome. Especially on units with High Armor or low toughness. Who wants to fight toughness 7 High Elves or a toughness 8 Frost Phoenix?

4. Regrowth - I like bringing expensive models back to life. Any decently tough unit supported with this spell is a serious road block.

5. The signature is dirt cheap and gives a 5+ regen without throne. What is not to like about that?

I run lore of life a fair bit. I think I've cast dwellers twice & got it off once.

People screw up with Life, because they get hung up on throne of vines and dwellers. Those are awesome, but hardly necessary. Lifebloom, Regrowth, & Flesh to Stone are the cornerstone of the lore.

 Atlantic wrote:
Those are awesome, but hardly necessary. Lifebloom, Regrowth, & Flesh to Stone are the cornerstone of the lore.

I've gone through a horde of temple guard with flesh to stone(None throned) version, with 30 corsairs, with nothing but soulblight on them

Like I said, without throne of vines, the lore doesn't do enough to be worth taking on a level 4.

And you need a level 4 to make the most of it. Well, you really need a loremaster to make the most of it, but it can work on a level 4, if you roll Flesh to stone, throne of vines, regrowth and dwellers. Anything other than that and you will see exactly what I mean about every other lore being better.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Well, not really. Cuz some armies simply can't take other lores. And some armies are played less than others. I think if you looked at like Empire and saw what people used most, you'd get a good ballpark of the BRB lores.

Then it's light. Because 90% of empire lists seem to be running the banishbattery.

This thread makes me miss the Master of Sorcery gift. Back when you could pick them.

It's also popular because you can heal anyone. And +2T. And Throne. And regen. Other than that, yeah, Dwellers is the only thing.

DukeRustfield wrote:
It's also popular because you can heal anyone. And +2T. And Throne. And regen. Other than that, yeah, Dwellers is the only thing.

Dwellers and regrowth are still the only good things. Basic Flesh to Stone and Regen aren't quite good enough without Throne.

The lore attribute is amazing. Flesh to stone is amazing. You really don't get what +2T means. Look at the BRB for just a sec.

Throne of vines really isn't *that* important.

What truly matters is the Lore attribute. Any model with multi wounds can just get a wound back every time you cast a spell. That is a big big deal.

You need to play the lore for 10 or so games. You aren't going to have throne for all of them - it still holds up really well.

I view Throne almost more of a "force them to dispel it" thing. Because they WILL dispel it. It's a gamble. If you have a buttload of PD, sure, throw it. Like if you suspect he has a scroll, you can throw that and he can either try and take it down or wait for Dwellers. If he doesn't, you can have mega regen/toughness or ability to IF Dwellers without fear.

Life is super good. Last year in a tourneyI was taking it for my Tzeentch herald. He would follow the GUO around and keep him alive with his 20 horrors. Never cast Dwellers. Never really had the dice/opportunity too. I was focused on throne, shield, flesh to stone and regrowth.

 bennyboy6189 wrote:
I think it kind of depends on the army as for ogres i feel gut/beasts are the best lores as an example.

But all in all i love lore of light as it can work with nearly all armies.

Life is an all round good lore but i wouldnt put it as the best lore, its just abit too safe and boring, high magic is definetly good.

High Magic? Last time I used it, it was lackluster and wasn't affective at all.

Lore of Life maybe be "boring"

but I don't leave home without it

Yeah it kind of depends My lizards almost always run life. In my monster Mash Healing wounds and t6 saurus are key.

In HE I run Shadow for the debuff mainly and the occasional 6 dice save me Okkams.

However in terms of overall power it has to be Shadow. Miasma allows you to control opponents movement. Steed and the lroe attribute can allow you to evacuate a valuable caster. Enfeebling and withering allow to control an enemy combat potential. Pit destroys low I armies. Okkams is self expanatory.

The only spell that is iffy is pendulum and against low I monsters it has its uses.

My vote is for shadow, in my personal experience and local meta it's an auto-take if available and one isn't trying to theme a list.

The default for shadow is amazing in what it does for the casting value, specifically the boosted version. It contains a toughness nerf, a strength nerf, a mini-cannonball (that doesn't stop when it fails to kill), a check-or-die spell, and I have only seen one instance where a mindrazor'd unit didn't win combat by a significant margin.

Beasts. Although i'm sure once I roll out my Dark Elves it will change.

But I always run a lvl 4 Bray-Shaman with Beasts. Always gives me an edge the Beasts so desperately need.

The best lore is Life, Light, Fire, Heavens, Death, Metal, Beasts and Shadow.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

+2 toughness and 5+ regen is far too meh. It can be so easily countered with Wildform, Soulblight, Withering, or the obvious choice of Mindrazor, and lore of fire, respectively.

Only on the internet I'm afraid, and not on my turn when I charge.

Since I rarely take Life, I don't get +2 T and 5+ Regen, and yet my units are often formidable if I remember to use them right. I don't see at all how being T5 would be meh when it improves something formidable.

For Empire, I really like Light and Heavens, and usually take them in some L4/L1 form when I can. Beasts is also very very useful when you're running 2+ Knights, 2+ Demis and 3-4 custom-equipped Captasi, and useful on an L2 as a backup lore. It's been ages since I've run an L4 Fire but again, on an L1/2 just for the best magic missile in the BRB lores it's great, and it has a lot more to offer than people give it credit for. Flaming, anti-chaff, anti-movement, consistent damage, not shabby.

Death is nice but like Shadow has rather high casting values. Also, the assassination spells aren't so great.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I've gone through a horde of temple guard with flesh to stone(None throned) version, with 30 corsairs, with nothing but soulblight on them

Forgive me if the numbers are wrong, but: Corsairs are swinging with 50 attacks. 44.4 hit. S3 versus T4+2-1 = 7.4 wounds, 4.9 after saves.

The Temple Guard swing back with 35.1. 17.6 hit. S4-1+1 versus T3 = 11.7 wounds, 9.8 after saves.

So, as with any of these "What's the Best [blank]" threads, it's largely situational. So, let's assume that we're trying to determine, special situations aside, which is the best overall. The answer will be vague at best, and not very useful, but I think it can be found.

Shadow and Life are pretty close, though I think Shadow comes out on top. A save-or-die spell, a monstrously good Augment, and several great Hexes. The Pendulum isn't amazing, but it's not bad, by any means. Steed of Shadows is the only one I'd consider lack-luster.

Life has Earthblood, which would be amazing, if it were any unit, but as-is, it's only really good. Flesh to Stone and Regrowth are both amazing. Awakening is meh, as is Shield. But the Attribute is incredible, and Dwellers is amazing. Not just because it cuts 50-man tarpits down to 25, but because it can snipe enemy wizards with sickening ease, and--this is the kicker for me--it does so while being part of an otherwise predominately defensive Lore. The versatility there is invaluable.

Death's Attribute has the most potential, but you need the Sun to make it work. And Sun is devastating, but it's also got a chance to misfire. Also, Dreadknight is crap.

Metal's sig is weird and highly situational. Hounds is goofy, situational, and lackluster even then. Plague of Rust is cool, but it makes the signature worse, which is just bizarre. The 6th is nice, though, since it's always equally useful.

Beasts has a great signature, and two really good Augments, but the two damaging spells leave something to be desired, and the 6th does too.

Fire is a good back-up Lore, but that's mostly just to have something that can strip Regeneration.

Warpsolution wrote:

Shadow and Life are pretty close, though I think Shadow comes out on top.

Both of these are as situational as anything. Dwellers against S4 or better is not really worth it, or any more than Transmutation while Shadow loses *a lot* of its appeal against Elves or WoC or even Skaven. I admit there is Miasma but you still need to get two spells through - one of the biggest critiques of Life now applies to Shadow.

Earthblood is utter crap. My human or Elven wizard doesn't want to be in combat. It's good on a Loremaster but that's about it. No, Life is just as mediocre as, say, Death - only Flesh and Regrowth are really reliably good.

Dreadknight isn't crap at all. I've had my Speed of Light-boosted GS fail a fear test. It's one of those things you can easily one dice, and once you kill the Ld carriers...

Plague of Rust does not make the sig any worse either, as it says in the sig's description (unmodified AS). Having said this, I've never had any luck or success whatsoever with Metal, not even with Gelt. This one's way on the bottom of the deck for me.

Fire and Beasts are incredible. The Flame Cage and the dangerous terrain spell let you mess with your opponent's movement phase. It doesn't matter how strong or tough or well-armoured you are if you are not willing to move or lose more models to the Cage than to the supposedly amazing Dwellers - throw that on any T3 unit and see them dwindle. An S10 bolter is another shot at that Frosty or Hydra or Chimera, ward aside.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
It's also popular because you can heal anyone. And +2T. And Throne. And regen. Other than that, yeah, Dwellers is the only thing.

Dwellers and regrowth are still the only good things. Basic Flesh to Stone and Regen aren't quite good enough without Throne.

But throne gives you a very nice dice advantage.

Cast throne on two dice, if you roll average, the opponent will generally dispel on 3 dice which gives you +1 dice advantage from whatever advantage you already had so casting flesh to stone or regrowth will almost always go off.

T5 elves are a tough nut to crack and D3+1 wounds back are always welcome on T3 expensive models.

I still like high magic (for versatility) or shadow/death for pure offensive power, though.

Hands down best lore in the game is lore of Hashut....not a single spell is bad.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Both of these are as situational as anything.

...yup. As said earlier in the post you quoted:

Warpsolution wrote:
... with any of these "What's the Best [blank]" threads, it's largely situational. So, let's assume that we're trying to determine, special situations aside, which is the best overall. The answer will be vague at best, and not very useful, but I think it can be found.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Dwellers against S4 or better is not really worth it, or any more than Transmutation

Taking out a third of a unit is still nothing to scoff at. I mean, people like Final Transmutation, and that's what it does, as you said. I still think the best thing either one of them does is snipe other wizards, though.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Shadow loses *a lot* of its appeal against Elves or WoC or even Skaven. I admit there is Miasma but you still need to get two spells through - one of the biggest critiques of Life now applies to Shadow.

...or, you know, instead of trying to throw Pits and Pendulums at them, you just Wither them and beat the crap out of them. Or Enfeeble them and tarpit. Or Mindrazor and win. Etc.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Earthblood is utter crap. My human or Elven wizard doesn't want to be in combat. It's good on a Loremaster but that's about it. No, Life is just as mediocre as, say, Death - only Flesh and Regrowth are really reliably good.

Meh. I'd gladly take a 5+ Regen on my wizard's bunker to resist spells and shooting. That, and I've never been that shy about sending my Grey Seer in carefully chosen combats.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Dreadknight isn't crap at all. I've had my Speed of Light-boosted GS fail a fear test.

I mean, yeah, it has its uses. But Miasma can usually do about the same thing, and it works regardless of a Ld test.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Fire and Beasts are incredible. The Flame Cage and the dangerous terrain spell let you mess with your opponent's movement phase. It doesn't matter how strong or tough or well-armoured you are if you are not willing to move or lose more models to the Cage than to the supposedly amazing Dwellers - throw that on any T3 unit and see them dwindle.

First, Curse is going to kill 1 in 6 models. That's pretty good on a small elite unit, but that's not so bad on a big tar pit. Go ahead and kill my 8 Night Goblins.
Second. Yeah, the Cage is great. I will say that letting your opponent choose between S4 hits and not moving is worse than just being able to do one or the other, though. More importantly, though, is that Flame Cage is hitting characters in the unit for a S4 hit, rather than killing them with no saves allowed.

After seeing a friend's Slaanesh army in action, I don't think there's much that can compete with Lore of Slaanesh and the dreaded Caco-bomb.
M7 Daemonette horde and a bunch of M10 supporters running up flanks, then send your Kipper backed-up by a 'Nettes or Fiend unit into the middle of the enemy army and 6-dice Caco for pretty much an instant win.
You nail a 24" bubble with 2D6/4+ to-wound/no save hits that can grow more 'Nettes or Fiends AND nuke everything in range with ASL + random movement D6.

And the rest of the Lore of Slaanesh isn't shabby either.

The only downside is risking your Greater to potentially getting sucked into the warp on a bad miscast... However it can be even more profitable if you get him into combat and can potentially template the enemy on the miscast for insult to injury!



Actually, if Fiends weren't so ungodly expensive, I'd simply shelve my near-useless Tzeentch Daemons and run mono-Slaanesh as a way to make Daemons work this edition... (I won't play Nurgle out of sheer principal!)

Warpsolution wrote:

Taking out a third of a unit is still nothing to scoff at.

That's not the same as the best. Lots of spells from lots of lores are nothing to scoff at.

...or, you know, instead of trying to throw Pits and Pendulums at them, you just Wither them and beat the crap out of them. Or Enfeeble them and tarpit. Or Mindrazor and win. Etc.

Oh, it's certainly a useful lore but the thing is, beating the crap out of them isn't really the problem. Wounding them on 2's instead of 3's (if at all) is nifty - and there's two spells for that but whether I kill 9 or 11 is really not the salient point. Of course there are other factions out there where it helps a lot more - but again we're coming back to the initial premise: It's situational. Dunno, Shadow never seemed to do good things when I fielded it.

Meh. I'd gladly take a 5+ Regen on my wizard's bunker to resist spells and shooting. That, and I've never been that shy about sending my Grey Seer in carefully chosen combats.

Your GS has a better ward that is always online. You don't charge an Empire Wizard Lord and his archer bunker into anything and hope you can get Regen through. Horses for courses.

I mean, yeah, it has its uses. But Miasma can usually do about the same thing, and it works regardless of a Ld test.

Yes. However, I'm always cautious with these adjectives of best and worst. Perhaps I rate Fear higher because although I played back then, I don't compare its current incarnation to the past. It's got a nice synergy with D & D, too.

First, Curse is going to kill 1 in 6 models.

1 in 3 I'm afraid.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
That's not the same as the best. Lots of spells from lots of lores are nothing to scoff at.

Dwellers "only" takes a S4 unit down by 30%, but it still knocks S3 down to half. And, once again, it threatens every character in that unit as well. I don't care if my General is S5; I don't want to make that roll.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Oh, it's certainly a useful lore but the thing is, beating the crap out of them isn't really the problem.

...what is, then?

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
whether I kill 9 or 11 is really not the salient point. Of course there are other factions out there where it helps a lot more - but again we're coming back to the initial premise: It's situational. Dunno, Shadow never seemed to do good things when I fielded it.

I suppose a penalty to Toughness like this is most useful when you have a unit with low S and high WS and/or A?
And of course it's situational. As I said: we can either set that thought aside, and have a discussion, in which any conclusions drawn will be interesting but not all that useful, or we can hold on to the fact that "it's situational", and not have the conversation at all.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Yes. However, I'm always cautious with these adjectives of best and worst. Perhaps I rate Fear higher because although I played back then, I don't compare its current incarnation to the past. It's got a nice synergy with D & D, too.

Who's saying best and worst? And I'm not comparing 8th Fear to 7th; I'd usually (key word) just rather take a -2WS than a 30% chance to drop their WS to 1. If you're running elite versus rank and file, the results the same. Where Dread Knight comes into its own is when your WS3 troops face off against WS4+.
you

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
1 in 3 I'm afraid.

So it is! And they're at a -1 to Hit, and you can extend the spell to 72"...okay. Beasts just went up in my book. I still don't think it can compete with the direct "you're unit's crap/my unit's awesome now, so die" applications of Life and Shadow. But it's getting there.
And that's a good point about the Amber Spear, too. It offers versatility and expands your range of targets. And even if those targets aren't available, it's still an okay spell.

I get thedarkavenger's point about Life (as in the lore, I've yet to hear his views on the meaning of our existence). If you roll the Magic Four (Throne, Flesh to Stone, Regrowth and Dwellers), you've got one of the best set of spells in the game and you can rest assured that you were right to take Life.

If you don't get those four, chances are that you were better off picking something else, depending on your army. Don't get me wrong, Life is still awesome anyway, but other Lores may have been better. If I take Life with my HE, and I don't get those four spells, I generally think "Why didn't I take Shadow?" For other armies, Brets, for example, I think Life is the best option no matter what.

Heavens is quite good for bretonnians as well

So basically since all the Lores have their uses, both situational and standard, all the Lores come out about equal.
And everything is boiling down to preference and army selection.
Pretty balanced magic then.