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 Happyjew wrote:

So how are you declaring something that is out of sight as a target? You declare a target, then pivot.

Indeed. So how do you establish LOS with a non-walker vehicle?

Spartak wrote:
"When firing a walker weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target" P 84
pretty clear that you pick a target, then pivot.

*amended*

This means that you pick a target, pivot, measure range/line of sight, fire. thus, walker gets to make the shot.

You must have LoS to pick a target. How are you bypassing that requirement?

Here's my take.
Walkers have 2 requirements, they have to be in line of sight to declare them as a target, and then the guns must be pointed at the target as per normal vehicle rules.

Page 8 describes how models draw line of slight.

Choose a target on page 12 references page out as the requirement to choose a target.

Page 27 says that Vehicles need to be able to draw line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them.
When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by terrain and models.

It doesn't say this replaces the previous requirements and it works fine as an additional requirement.
Step 1) is can the vehicle see the target? Yes? Then select it as a target as per page 12.
Step 2) Pivot the weapon at the target as described on page 72.
Step 3) Check line of sight weapon by weapon as described on page 72.
Step 4) check range.
Step 5) Fire, and work out cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing unit (as per page 72).

Walkers have a rule that you can pivot the walk on spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target. IMO, this would take place in the step 2 that I outlined above.

Doing it this way fulfills both the basic line of sight rules, along with the additional vehicle restrictions.

-Matt

 PrinceRaven wrote:

At the end of the enemy Movement
phase, a weapon with the Interceptor
special rule can be fired at any one unit
that has arrived from reserve within its
range and line of sight.

If the flyer arrived outside of line of sight, it did not arrive "from reserve within [the dreadnought's] range and line of sight, therefore you cannot fire as you haven't fulfilled the requirements of Interceptor, regardless of being able to pivot.

This.

Being a walker doesn't change the requirement from interceptor that the unit arrives within LOS and range.

If it does, then declare your target, you get your pivot and then can shoot.

Sorry if this sounds a little off topic, but I was wondering if an arc of fire discussion has already been done with walkers overwatch firing?

If dreadnoughts cannot turn to shoot interceptor, can they turn to shoot overwatch if being charged in the flank or rear?

As far as I know, you shouldn't move models who are overwatching, until the enemy reaches base to base contact.

If they can overwatch, does this not suggest a larger LoS than just their weapons?

With regards to Overwatch, I would say, since the target is declared for you, you would be able to pivot to shoot, without having LOS initially.

"VEHICLE WEAPONS & LINE OF SIGHT

Vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets
in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons
point them at the target and then trace line of sight from
each weapon's mounting along its barrel to see if
the shot is blocked by terrain or models..."

"SHOOTING WITH WALKERS
...

When firing a Walker's weapons, pivot the Walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target...

Range is measured from the weapon itself and line of sight is measured from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel as normal for vehicles..."


Where is the problem here? Interceptor allows the incoming unit to be shot. Walkers then pivot to point directly at the target, then LOS is determined down the gun barrel.


There is absolutely nothing that requires a Walker to be pointed at its target before choosing to shoot at it. Once you declare your shooting attack you pivot then determine LOS. The only limitation is being immobilized, then your 45 degree arcs come into effect. Hell, GW even bolded the relevant rule in BRB. LOS for walkers is ONLY determined after they pivot.


EDIT:
As to overwatch, you choose to shoot them, then pivot and draw LOS, then fire overwatch. Arcs are only applicable when imobilized.

In order to declare a target, the unit must have LoS to the wished-for target. If the arriving Flyer is not in the Dread's LoS at the end of the movement phase, then you cannot declare the Flyer as a target.
Once you have declared a target, then the Walker may pivot to bring both its weapons to bear.
So pivoting (as I established near the beginning of the thread) is only useful if one weapon arm ALREADY HAS LOS.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
In order to declare a target, the unit must have LoS to the wished-for target. If the arriving Flyer is not in the Dread's LoS at the end of the movement phase, then you cannot declare the Flyer as a target.
Once you have declared a target, then the Walker may pivot to bring both its weapons to bear.
So pivoting (as I established near the beginning of the thread) is only useful if one weapon arm ALREADY HAS LOS.

Pg12
States that to declare a target you must have LOS, refers to page 8.

Pg8
Establishes normal rules for LOS.

Pg72
Tells us that vehicles drawline of sight by pointing the weapon at the enemy and looking down the barrel.

Pg84
Tells us that to shoot a Walker we must pivot, point the guns at the target, then draw LOS. A specific clause is even added for Immobile walkers only being able to fire within their weapon arc.


The rules for Walkers on pg 84 supercede the others and create an exception. You cannot claim that a walker does not have LOS and choose to ignore the rules for determining Walker LOS.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
In order to declare a target, the unit must have LoS to the wished-for target..

There is no rules basis for this assertion.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
In order to declare a target, the unit must have LoS to the wished-for target..

There is no rules basis for this assertion.

in order to intercept, the unit has to arrive from reserve in LOS

Zagman - youy are putting the cart before the horse, there. You are told to pivot to the target, but are not told you are exempt from the initial requirement to have LOS to pick a target.

So you pick a target, then, if needed, pivot towards the target.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
In order to declare a target, the unit must have LoS to the wished-for target..

There is no rules basis for this assertion.

Apart from the actual shooting rules on page 12 as have been quoted in the thread.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
In order to declare a target, the unit must have LoS to the wished-for target..

There is no rules basis for this assertion.

Read the section titled "Line of Sight" on BRB p12, right column, before posting in this thread again.

Why is it then that you can't claim the model itself as having 360 degrees vision?
Probably missed a line somewhere.

for vehciles LOS is from the gun

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Zagman - youy are putting the cart before the horse, there. You are told to pivot to the target, but are not told you are exempt from the initial requirement to have LOS to pick a target.

So you pick a target, then, if needed, pivot towards the target.

So, again, how do you draw LOS with a non-walker vehicle?

Because we have the same problem there. The rules for shooting with vehicles tell us to point the weapon at the target, and then draw LOS down the barrel.

If you can't have chosen a target before establishing LOS, this is impossible.

The arguments about arriving in LOS have me scratching my head. Would this then mean that a unit arriving behind an Aegis Defense Line with all models pointing forward would be out of LOS, since their eyes are facing the wrong way?

I don't think it holds, so I'm going with yes it can fire.

So we draw line of sight from the eyes eh, better make sure you have all of those firewarriors pointing their heads in the right direction, or worse yet that mob of boys. Without rules for pivoting infantry they would have to move, better DS those termies behind those plasma cannon devs... Hmm... I wonder of that guy manning the Quadgun can shoot that flier, his eyes are pointed down in that pose...

6th edition assumes 360 degree awareness. LOS is a mechanic of shooting. To draw LOS with a walker we pivot then check LOS.

Zagman wrote:
6th edition assumes 360 degree awareness. LOS is a mechanic of shooting. To draw LOS with a walker we pivot then check LOS.

It's almost like statements have to be supported by rules...

Mind providing some?

The walker rules are written to make them emulate infantry in most respects, including shoiting. Which is why you pick targets then pivot. While not needed for infantry facing for armour values is important for walkers. So the walker can turn, face and shoot an enemy unit behind it, it exposes its rear armour in the process. Which is enough of a drawback for the exception.

troa wrote:The arguments about arriving in LOS have me scratching my head. Would this then mean that a unit arriving behind an Aegis Defense Line with all models pointing forward would be out of LOS, since their eyes are facing the wrong way?.

Technically, yes, although some argue that models can draw LOS through their own heads, since models don't block LOS for members of their own unit.

The LOS rules are a little lacking in this edition, though. Where previously there was a specific allowance to turn models to face their targets in the shooting phase, this is absent from 6th edition, leaving us to figure out how it is supposed to work... Either models have a LOS arc defined by what the model could see (exactly how we're supposed to determine that is anybody's guess, or models can see through their own heads, or models are supposed to turn and face their targets but they just forgot to include that rule.

Bausk wrote:The walker rules are written to make them emulate infantry in most respects, including shoiting. Which is why you pick targets then pivot. While not needed for infantry facing for armour values is important for walkers. .

It actually is quite important for infantry in some situations. Overwatch being the main one, since without being able to turn them to face their target, (unless you subscribe to the 'LOS through own head' interpretation) they won't have LOS to a unit charging from behind them.

There is no rule allowing infantry to turn to face their targets, or granting them a 360 degree arc of sight, in 6th edition, though.

It is made even more complicated then that Insaniak.

I draw peoples attention to page 10, sub-section titled Turning and Facing, as evidence of a rule that makes it even more bizarre given they just established 'true line of sight' only a two pages before. The rule relates to two different things that will arise when you are moving a model, the possibility that turning the model counts as movement in some way and how the direction the model would effect further situations, such as shooting and charging. While it doesn't outright give permission to turn and face the enemy, when it comes to shooting and charging, it comes very close to granting a model 360 degree arc of sight regardless of where the eyes are looking.

It simply states that the direction the model is facing will not impact it's ability to shoot at a target!

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
In order to declare a target, the unit must have LoS to the wished-for target. If the arriving Flyer is not in the Dread's LoS at the end of the movement phase, then you cannot declare the Flyer as a target.
Once you have declared a target, then the Walker may pivot to bring both its weapons to bear.
So pivoting (as I established near the beginning of the thread) is only useful if one weapon arm ALREADY HAS LOS.

No, this is wrong. read the rules for shooting with walker on P84.

JinxDragon wrote:It simply states that the direction the model is facing will not impact it's ability to shoot at a target!

The movement rules say this, yes. But unfortunately, the rules for drawing LOS seem to disagree.

Spartak wrote:No, this is wrong. read the rules for shooting with walker on P84.

The walker rules don't give you the whole picture.

As has already been pointed out, the walker rules tell you to pivot the walker to point the weapons at the target. The problem is that in order for there to be a target, you have to have already established LOS, because you can not declare aa unit as a target if you don't have LOS.

So as the rules currently stand, you have to check LOS first. If you have LOS to a unit, you can choose that unit as a target. Now that you have a target, you can pivot the walker to face it.

BUT, as I said, this also raises issues with shooting with any other vehicle, since you establish LOS by turning the vehicle's weapons to point at the target... a target that you can't have yet, as you haven't yet determined if you have LOS to it.


Which leads me to strongly suspect that the Walker rules aren't actually supposed to work as they are currently written. Of course, they also (by RAW) worked this way last edition as well, and GW never bothered to address it... so who really knows?

Spartak wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
In order to declare a target, the unit must have LoS to the wished-for target. If the arriving Flyer is not in the Dread's LoS at the end of the movement phase, then you cannot declare the Flyer as a target.
Once you have declared a target, then the Walker may pivot to bring both its weapons to bear.
So pivoting (as I established near the beginning of the thread) is only useful if one weapon arm ALREADY HAS LOS.

No, this is wrong. read the rules for shooting with walker on P84.

He's not talking about the shooting rules, he's talking about the interceptor rule. The interceptor rule requires a unit to arrive from reserve in LOS and range in order to be targeted.

That is why I say it is adding to the confusing, Insaniak, instead of out-right stating 'this rule grants you permission to ignore line of sight requirements.' For while it implies such it doesn't clearly say this, so to state otherwise would be in error. Yet it does create the situation where, on one hand we have a rule stating that the facing of the model has no impact on when it comes to shooting attacks and on the other we have a rule that states it very much has an impact when it comes to shooting attacks. This isn't a situation of basic vs advanced rule or the likes either, both are established in the basic rule section of the book within 2 pages of each other. Literally 2 pages, both directions, to find some rule either explaining what line of sight is or requiring line of sight before you can proceed.

Meaning the way the model is facing will impact it's ability to shoot at the target, often out right preventing it, which is the opposite to was just stated in the book!

It is situations like this which just make me throw my hands up into the air and give up trying to make sense of the rules as they are written. No more then two page later we have a direct conflict and all I can do is sit here and once more question the lack of quality control in this book. You would think an editor, if they where not paid in banana's that is, would be able to see a conflict like this one given how is occurs within pages of each other but... nope.

We are just left with two completely opposite rules and no explanation on how one doesn't conflict with the other.

Just gonna throw another thing in here.
I know it's a commonly accepted fix that models without eyes can see for LOS purposes, but, strictly RAW, technically can't trace LOS.
So my little thing is:
The interceptor rule says "a weapon" with this rule must have LOS. Weapons don't have eyes right? So surely, not that anyone would pull this in a game, nothing can intercept, because weapons don't have eyes (unless you're a nid of course), and therefore don't have LOS?

Ok guys I emailed the Forgeworld team this question:

Dear Imperial Armour Team,
I have a rules question concerning the Mortis and Contemptor mortis dreads, when using their interceptor rule.

When a flyer enters play interceptor states that a weapon must have line of sight to be able to be used. Most weapons with anti air are turret mounted, so this isn't a problem.

However the dreadnoughts do not. So the questions is:

Can a dreadnought with interceptor and skyfire make an interceptor attack by pivoting on the spot? Or may it only fire interceptor at flyers who finish their move in its fire arc?

Their response was:

In the 40k Rule Book on pg84, it states that a walker can pivot to face the target when shooting.

Not the most detailed answer, but for them to say it, it is certainly enough for me to decide what their intended rules were, even if the current RAW doesn't back them up.

I know for a lot of people this will not change their view on the question, but for me I know now HIWPI.

Actually RAW it seems clear that the Dreadnought would pivot as the only way to check line of sight of the weapon is to pivot the dreadnought first. The line of sight requirement only applies to the weapon using interceptor.

I do appreciate that if some one models their rip tide with the ion cannon pointed straight up in the air they technically can't intercept with it RAW