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Its for completeness. Some weapons simply make sense as being AP2. They are better than krak missiles but not quite as good as melta, hence AP2.

That doesn't mean they are intended to kill terminators. If you are using lascannons to kill terminators you are doing something wrong. Yes, it may kill a terminator each turn, but that doesn't change that a lascannon is anti-tank. Not anti-heavy infantry.


Terminators are intended to be killed by volume of fire. Make them take those saves. Nothing else kills them as efficiently.

TH/SS terminators are intended to punish those who are foolish enough to use AP2 against them. All that work, and they still get a 3+ invuln. But you can simply pour fire into them, and they die just the same as terminators without storm shields.

Saying SS are broken is like Scissors claiming Rock is overpowered.

And Disintegrators, Plasma Cannon etc?

They aren't exactly antitank weapons. They are intended to kill groups of 2+ armour infantry.

Could be that i'm just old-fashioned. I remember when a Sotrm Shield gave 4+ inv versus one opponent in CC only, before it jumped to a 3++ save against everything.

I still think it could stand to be a smidge pricier though

Sure, those are anti-terminator weapons. If they aren't carrying Stormshields.

Stormshields are a counter to anti-terminator weapons. They make it so the terminators are only counterable with volume of fire. At the expense of no ranged weaponry.


And there was a reason nobody took Stormshields back when they were 4+ in combat only. they sucked! They were a terrible weapon option.

Too true. They did bite hard

I think what a lot of people forget is that a 3++ is not invincible, merely a 66% chance of preventing a fatal wound that would bypass their armour. Still more often than not, but still able to fail. Are you able to kill tacticals with basic guns? Sure. You can't bring as much ap 2 to bear as ap 5, but there are usually less bodies being shot at. Just because there is no instant win button against ss doesn't mean they can't be dealt with.

I would like to observe that Dawn of War 2 permits Avitus to be geared with Terminator armour just like Tarkus and Thaddeus; I don't see any reason why a Devastator Terminator squad is so implausible. As far as their selection of heavy weapons, there are five Devastator weapons and four Terminator weapons (assuming we're counting the plasma cannon Deathwing can take, which overlaps between the two); Terminators don't really need heavy bolters since Relentless makes the increased range less relevant (an assault cannon Terminator has an effective threat range of 30" and more punch than a heavy bolter), multi-meltas aren't that relevant given that at the ranges involved Terminators have chainfists where Devastators don't and Deep Strike to get them close enough to use them reliably, and missile launchers are unnecessary due to the existence of the Cyclone launcher; the only Devastator weapon that would actually change the role of the Terminator squad at all is the lascannon.

While we get into this I'd also like to observe that Space Marines don't really have any Devastator Veterans (except for Long Fangs, and they don't really count given how Space Wolves' organization and structure is so unique); close combat is more glamorous, and no Veteran bothers keeping heavy weapons around in this day and age; if I were writing the Space Marine Codex, I'd do three different kinds of Veteran Squad (Tactical Veterans, Assault Veterans, Devastator Veterans) and give each of them the option for Terminator Armour, probably starting with power swords instead of power fists like Chaos Terminators to keep the price under control. Each type of Veteran Squad would have its own set of unique wargear and skills, some of which would carry over into Terminator suits.

^^That second paragraph would be pretty cool, though GW probably won't bite on something like that until 8th ed. or later when it gets randomly drawn out of Ward's bag of tricks.

Sternguard also sort of fill the whole "Devastator Vet" role, in that they can take two heavy weapons. Ideally, the rules would be re-written such that they could take up to 4 (but be changed to HS if they took more than 2). That would be a very cool shooty force with good range.

Increasing the shooting potential of non-assault terminators by either adding special ammo from the Sternguard or adding more Special Weapons slots/choices (or all of the above) would be fun.

I'd be in favor of giving them access to a the multimelta and not much else from the Devastator list(since its the sort of up close heavy firepower that would be useful in their traditional roll...better then the cyclone does really)

I do like the uber veterans choice idea AnomanderRake made above as well.

Assault Terminators are overpriced because in order to get the most out of them, you either need to take 10 of them (thus putting the unit cost extremely high) or you have to pay the LR tax.

200 points for 5 single wound models with 2+/3++ that have no ranged attacks and strike last in combat. Sure, they can deepstrike, but you pretty much ensure you are paying 200 points for a one turn shooting distraction at that point. The fact that termies can't sweeping advance also hurts their effectiveness in assault, limiting them to attacking smaller units (which tend to be more elite and equipped to deal with 2+ saves) and vehicles.

With the advent of Tau and Eldar (and Daemons to a lesser extent), the game is starting to really pass the once vaunted terminator by. Sadly, GW doesn't realize this, and so DA kind of got screwed (oh look, you can field all terminators, now here's an Eldar army that can shoot AP2 from every unit). Ultimately, the unit really needs a total rules redesign, which just isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I've long wanted a rehaul of Veteran stats.

A 1st company veteran has had decades, sometimes centuries, of combat experience. Yet his stats are no better than sergeant Joe of tactical squad Averagica.


All veterans should get a 10 point increase and gain +1 WS and BS, and maybe another wound. And while we are at it, give all marine HQs another wound. A Librarian should NOT have less wounds than an IG officer.

 Grey Templar wrote:

All veterans should get a 10 point increase and gain +1 WS and BS, and maybe another wound. And while we are at it, give all marine HQs another wound. A Librarian should NOT have less wounds than an IG officer.

I would definitely like to see a bump in the WS or BS of some marines.

Maybe something like:
- Sternguard get +1 BS
- Vanguard get +1 WS
- Allow upgrading of each model in a unit for 15 points to 1st Company Veteran, which gives them a second wound. I would feel much better about taking some of these guys if they weren't 3+ save Battle Cannon magnets.

Also, yeah, Libbys with 2 wounds.......wat? Da? Heck?

Is it just me or is Ezekiel from the DA codex really good points wise. Captain statline (-1 WS is the only difference), but gets Artificer Armor, and is Mastery Level 3! All for under 150 points.

Why, back in my day we paid 150 points for 2 psychic powers and a 3+ save and only two wounds AND WE LIKED IT.

I never saw Terminators as Devastators why have big & thick armor when you just stand at back of field shooting with Lascannons? When I have played with my Blood Ravens Terminators I only equip one Terminator with Heavy flamer or Assault cannon and they get their job done. Only if Terminators needs new weapons I would add combi weapons like their Chaos counterparts but not Heavy weapons.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I've long wanted a rehaul of Veteran stats.

A 1st company veteran has had decades, sometimes centuries, of combat experience. Yet his stats are no better than sergeant Joe of tactical squad Averagica.


All veterans should get a 10 point increase and gain +1 WS and BS, and maybe another wound. And while we are at it, give all marine HQs another wound. A Librarian should NOT have less wounds than an IG officer.

Chosen get an extra attack and 1 extra leadership over standard CSM.

Veterans of the long war (10k+ years experience) get +1Ld and Hatred (SM) although the latter is only useful vs less than half of the codicies.

Looks like you're getting Obliterator/Mutilator type units from the content in the C:SM rumor thread.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I've long wanted a rehaul of Veteran stats.

A 1st company veteran has had decades, sometimes centuries, of combat experience. Yet his stats are no better than sergeant Joe of tactical squad Averagica.


All veterans should get a 10 point increase and gain +1 WS and BS, and maybe another wound. And while we are at it, give all marine HQs another wound. A Librarian should NOT have less wounds than an IG officer.

I think the real problem is that the 10 stats doesn't give much diversity. If we were to go into detail, A devestator focused SM should have a better BS skill then an Assault unit (whilst they are built to swap it is obvious members have preferences and even companies built solely to be using these weapons). And then you get into the problem of BS5 and WS5. This means that these guys have unholy aiming/WS capable of fighting just as well as guys that sacrificed everything for only close combat giving up pretty much any usage in ranged combat solely to whack guys to death in cc and also means that you'll have members with the same precision as their chapter masters and thousand year old marines.

Also curse you marines if you get that for being 1st company whilst my guys that have been alive since the Horus Heresy only get some extra Ld and hatred

Personally I've always felt the biggest problem is that the game system is stuck at a d6 system and, more importantly, an ancient draconian rules set that continues to try and hone a broken blade whilst throwing more ostentatious ceramics upon the hilt and blade.