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 jonolikespie wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
They can, but they don't. You have to be insanely unlucky to get self-smushed as DoC. It is pretty frequent with O&G.

Nah, I'd call that an urban myth. Animosity isn't much of an issue.

Not to mention O&G can work to mitigate the problem (black orc warboss in a unit of anything else stops them rolling doesn't it?)
Even if DoCs are running full Khorne with no wizards they can still suffer horribly from the table.

This.

OnG's can ensure that the most important chunk of their battleline won't be affected by Animosity by keeping Black Orcs nearby.
Unless a Daemon play takes Fateweaver or the Chromatic Tome (which has it's own built-in drawback), you're entirely at the mercy of Reign of Comedy. And if you forgot your FAQ at home? well, enjoy every single RAW player from pointing out that only results of 10+ are in any way beneficial...

Every single game so far, both Fantasy & 40k with my Daemons, I've had at least one turn of a 'bad' result. (roll of 2/3/4)
In Fantasy though, the bad results are even worse than in 40k!

Most results will be between 5-9, but I've found that I tend to roll 3-4 results way more often than I roll the 10-11 results. I've once rolled the boxcars result, (in a 40k game), but I've rolled snake eyes 3 times in Fantasy, and not even being able to use your General's Ld really, really hurts!

Wood Elves, Vote for green peace!

Although in my personal experience the only race I have trouble beating with wood elves are Skaven, so my vote would go to them I guess.

Chromatic Tome is often taken in my TZeentch list. With 7 channels (6 Tzeenthch), I'm ok with you re-rolling the magic phase. That being said, against magic heavy armies if I roll the free dispel dice I'm taking it.

The result that hits Daemons of Tzeentch isn't that bad at most 9 s3 hits. Horrors, I have plenty of them. Flamers I don't take, the LOC is t6. Screamers hurt since they are 40 points. Granted I'm spawning them with flank shots from LOC on hordes with pink fiery goodness.

I'll only reroll a 2-4 on dice or if it hits my khorne boys when I really still need the cannons.

Additionally most tourneys I play with allow a tourney reroll once per game, so even most friendly games I play, we include that bonus.

Dogs of War

There is no most powerful army. A skaven army could easliy be beaten by a beastman army. It only matters for the tactics you use.

 Son of Landuin wrote:
There is no most powerful army. A skaven army could easliy be beaten by a beastman army. It only matters for the tactics you use.

Wrong. If judging armies, you have to assume equal skill level on both sides as you measure each army book's inherent power level - and there is a huge gap between the Skaven and the Beastmen army book.

So you say a average beastman player can never beat an average skaven player?

 Son of Landuin wrote:
So you say a average beastman player can never beat an average skaven player?

Pretty much yes. But skaven is a bad example. Right now Dark Elves and Skaven are just unbelievably better than everyone else. IF you remove their books i believe with any of the other you can fairly determine who is the more skilled player.

BUT in terms of power level Skaven and Dark Ellver san be built to leave your opponent a blubbering mess.

But beastmen can also make you a blubbering mess, depending on how well built the list is.
Therefore, there still is no MOST powerful army, there is only powerful lists, but even then, another list can smash that one senseless.

I would take a more nuanced position.

1. You can with any army - assuming you build a balanced list and play smart.

2. It is easier to do so with some armies than others - some especially more so.

 Atlantic wrote:
I would take a more nuanced position.

1. You can with any army - assuming you build a balanced list and play smart.

2. It is easier to do so with some armies than others - some especially more so.

Fair enough.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Son of Landuin wrote:
There is no most powerful army. A skaven army could easliy be beaten by a beastman army. It only matters for the tactics you use.

Wrong. If judging armies, you have to assume equal skill level on both sides as you measure each army book's inherent power level - and there is a huge gap between the Skaven and the Beastmen army book.

You also have to take the total points values being played into account as well...
For example, anyone who can field cheap 2-6pts/model Core options will have a massive leg-up in smaller points games. On the other hand, armies like Daemons or Ogres suck big time in smaller games because even their Core units cost an arm and a leg.

Skaven for example are downright beyond busted in game of 1000pts or less, meanwhile, Daemons only get to viably play with most of their options once they hit the 3k+ mark.

I am going with the Brets, They are the oldest Army book, and Yet they can still get it done, Even with all the new toys that Armies have gotten. The Fact that Troops trump Cavalry, Units are over priced. No Cannons/MI/MC/Monsters, (Pegasus do not count) they Still get it done, So I that is why I say Brets are indeed the "Best" army out there, this does not meen they are the strongest army, Just the best.

I have played as and against Skaven, sure they have thier tricks, but over all they are just not that scary to me. Same goes for Dark Elves, Other than the Reverse ward save guy, all their stuff is kinda crunchy. Once you get to them, they die It is just getting pas the magic that is an issue. The strongest Army To me right now is the Ogres, Other than a couple of spells, They are over all the toughest army. 90% is S4 T4 or better, Wizards now have access to the same dark magic that kills them, and Fire to deal with regen. Cannons to counter sit back and shoot armies. A monsters that have the second best area Affect. (Phoenix)
Tools that help them stay in the game and deal with their weaknesses WOC are right up there with the Ogres do to high armor saves, Tricks that make them just as hard to crack as the Ogres.

Of course this is just the Meta's that I am used to playing I am sure that elsewhere in the world it might be different. But from what I have found this is the case.

Skaven.

I hate playing against chaos dwarfs, they are pretty handy when it comes to annihilating the opponent. Plus they get awesome K'Dai who really just don't give a sh*t who they toast.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
They can, but they don't. You have to be insanely unlucky to get self-smushed as DoC. It is pretty frequent with O&G.

Nah, I'd call that an urban myth. Animosity isn't much of an issue.

Not to mention O&G can work to mitigate the problem (black orc warboss in a unit of anything else stops them rolling doesn't it?)
Even if DoCs are running full Khorne with no wizards they can still suffer horribly from the table.

Actually, blackorc warbosses don't stop animosity, they just change what it does.

Quell Animosity (The black orc warboss special rule) causes the warboss to inflict d6 str 5 hits upon his unit if it fails an animosity test. They can then function as normal. They can still be affected by other units failed animosity, as they are still affected by the animosity rule themselves (E.G A get em result)

So no, black orc warbosses can't ignore animosity. And I'm frankly tired of people on this board claiming that they do.

I have to admit I'm really surprised at how well the High Elves book is doing. I felt that the new HE book was good, and it looks like several other people seem to think the same.

Yah, as far as BO stopping animosity, all they do is beat the crap out of your units. That's not stopping it.

That's like saying your Flammable units become totally immune to flamming attacks...when they're dead.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
They can, but they don't. You have to be insanely unlucky to get self-smushed as DoC. It is pretty frequent with O&G.

Nah, I'd call that an urban myth. Animosity isn't much of an issue.

Not to mention O&G can work to mitigate the problem (black orc warboss in a unit of anything else stops them rolling doesn't it?)
Even if DoCs are running full Khorne with no wizards they can still suffer horribly from the table.

Actually, blackorc warbosses don't stop animosity, they just change what it does.

Quell Animosity (The black orc warboss special rule) causes the warboss to inflict d6 str 5 hits upon his unit if it fails an animosity test. They can then function as normal. They can still be affected by other units failed animosity, as they are still affected by the animosity rule themselves (E.G A get em result)

So no, black orc warbosses can't ignore animosity. And I'm frankly tired of people on this board claiming that they do.

Sorry, I got that rule a bit wrong, my point stands though. Orcs can do something about it, demons can't.

Animosity isn't a big issue in most games, simply because if you play it right, you are out of charge range anyway and just fire away at the incoming enemy army - most results will hardly have an effect.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Mr Mugguffins wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
They can, but they don't. You have to be insanely unlucky to get self-smushed as DoC. It is pretty frequent with O&G.

Nah, I'd call that an urban myth. Animosity isn't much of an issue.

Not to mention O&G can work to mitigate the problem (black orc warboss in a unit of anything else stops them rolling doesn't it?)
Even if DoCs are running full Khorne with no wizards they can still suffer horribly from the table.

Actually, blackorc warbosses don't stop animosity, they just change what it does.

Quell Animosity (The black orc warboss special rule) causes the warboss to inflict d6 str 5 hits upon his unit if it fails an animosity test. They can then function as normal. They can still be affected by other units failed animosity, as they are still affected by the animosity rule themselves (E.G A get em result)

So no, black orc warbosses can't ignore animosity. And I'm frankly tired of people on this board claiming that they do.

Sorry, I got that rule a bit wrong, my point stands though. Orcs can do something about it, demons can't.

All we can do is either take Fateweaver if he's allowed and use his one re-roll a turn, or else we're forced to take a Lord choice and use the Chromatic Tome...

So basically, we get screwed into being forced to fork over the better part of 500pts in a giant large target, which can still end up backfiring horribly!

Skaven. All this talk about self-destruction...and yet I've never seen it in the last 200 games against them. Never.

How are wood elves and empire on the same score? Yet alone wood elves being rated twice as high as chaos dwarfs and in uncomped warhammer beastmen are gak

It would be more fair to only discuss 8th edition books, as we're in 8th now and GW is churning through updates faster than a hooker that took a week off. I'd say, from personal experience, High Elves take the cake of 8th. My reasoning is that they can 100% shut down an entire army. No other army book currently has an "auto-win" button against a specific army. If you took out BotWD or made it so it was only against direct damage spells and didn't include magic weapons, the book would be fine. Tough, but fine.

It's funny how the view is different on different sites. There's a thread like this on the High Elves board, and most feel the new book is better, but only upper middle tier. I'm sure that they also play a lot of Comp.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50584

mrfantastical wrote:
It's funny how the view is different on different sites. There's a thread like this on the High Elves board, and most feel the new book is better, but only upper middle tier. I'm sure that they also play a lot of Comp.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50584

As someone who posts over there and plays High Elves that is about right they are very good and they have a STUPID OVERPOWERED Item but its not an overpowered book. Its pretty well balanced. They hit like a fregiht train but if you can suirvive to hit back you can cause serious problems.

 captain collius wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:
It's funny how the view is different on different sites. There's a thread like this on the High Elves board, and most feel the new book is better, but only upper middle tier. I'm sure that they also play a lot of Comp.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50584

As someone who posts over there and plays High Elves that is about right they are very good and they have a STUPID OVERPOWERED Item but its not an overpowered book. Its pretty well balanced. They hit like a fregiht train but if you can suirvive to hit back you can cause serious problems.

Agreed. Despite all the negativity I see, the HE book would be fantastic (both balance-wise and strength-wise) if you took out the Banner of the World Dragon. It's a shame that most people seem to pick up on the bad things, even if they are far fewer than the good things.

 The Shadow wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:
It's funny how the view is different on different sites. There's a thread like this on the High Elves board, and most feel the new book is better, but only upper middle tier. I'm sure that they also play a lot of Comp.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50584

As someone who posts over there and plays High Elves that is about right they are very good and they have a STUPID OVERPOWERED Item but its not an overpowered book. Its pretty well balanced. They hit like a fregiht train but if you can suirvive to hit back you can cause serious problems.

Agreed. Despite all the negativity I see, the HE book would be fantastic (both balance-wise and strength-wise) if you took out the Banner of the World Dragon. It's a shame that most people seem to pick up on the bad things, even if they are far fewer than the good things.

Both BotWD & Alarielle are game wrecking. Put both into a big brick of White Lions, (ie: 30'ish), add a BSB w/Alarielle's banner + support characters and you've got one of the game's nastiest Deathstars. Only Dreaded 13th really scares them, while both Dwellers & Final Trans only hurt on average 33% of the unit. (though Dwellers can pick-out the Everqueen a bit easier)


High Elves are a strong book as they have:
1. Reavers + Helms supported by Archers for Core, meaning they hardly consider that 25% minimum an actual tax.

2. They rule the chaff game. Between their mounted Core and Eagles which get admirable support from Archers & Repeaters, it's much easier for a High Elf player to dominate the chaff war. Throw in the likes of new Loremaster and a HE army should be able to control the match-up game.

3. Solid magic phase thanks to the Book of Hoeth. Many complain that HE's are magically neutered without being able to guarantee 12 dice casting phases anymore, but the re-roll from the book, plus the added +1 to-cast when using High Magic means you can really stretch an opponent's dispel dice to the limits. Give it to a Loremaster and suddenly you can 1-2 dice almost all of your spells! (take that Vampires!)

4. Frost Phoenix is basically a T7 monster in combat, plus it also makes it harder to wound those normally T3 elves unless you've got plentiful access to S6 combat units.

5. Ward Saves out the backside. Which of course can be buffed by using a High Mage in the same unit.
Phoenix Guard are one of the best units to combat enemy Deathstars and can pretty much take them out of the game by simply ranking deep and maintaining Steadfast.


Of the 8th ed books, HE's & WoC overall likely have the most flexibility when it comes to their power lists, while the likes of Ogres, VC's, Empire and such tend to stick to only 1 or 2 main cookie-cutter builds.

They aren't a broken/OP book, so long as you don't act like a complete tool towards Daemons players! (if you do, then it's simply GK's all over again and I dare say if you bring an Alarielle BotWD bunker, then you deserve to face the unkillable Eppi list! )

They are however a somewhat easier book to power list with if you understand the way the game works, and they have among the fewest instant counters in regards to the #6 spells. (only Dwellers which is rather limited & Final Trans scare HE's, unlike Nurgle Daemons, Ogres & VC's who can be ruthlessly pasted by the initiative-test-or-die spells)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:
It's funny how the view is different on different sites. There's a thread like this on the High Elves board, and most feel the new book is better, but only upper middle tier. I'm sure that they also play a lot of Comp.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50584

As someone who posts over there and plays High Elves that is about right they are very good and they have a STUPID OVERPOWERED Item but its not an overpowered book. Its pretty well balanced. They hit like a fregiht train but if you can suirvive to hit back you can cause serious problems.

Agreed. Despite all the negativity I see, the HE book would be fantastic (both balance-wise and strength-wise) if you took out the Banner of the World Dragon. It's a shame that most people seem to pick up on the bad things, even if they are far fewer than the good things.

(i just shortened so that the post wouldn't be so long I do not diagree with most of you points.)

Both BotWD & Alarielle are game wrecking together.

Just write up a High Elves LIon Bannerstar lis then remove Banner of the world dragon all of a sudden they can be beaten by a lot of things its still a t3 horde. Also it should be pointed that of the Six spells Purple sun and Pit of shades wreck some armies but against HE, DE, WE, Skaven, WOC and Parts of DOC it does very little.

I would like to put my vote in for Ogres.

Fast moving, hard hitting on the charge and decent enough combat ability, toughness and wounds to hold their own.

They also have decent spells, chaff units for redirection and some deadly firepower with lead belchers and ironblasters.

Plus they have the stonehorn and thundertusk which are just plain cool looking and deadly when used well.

Their only downsides are lack of decent armour saves except mournfangs and low-average leadership on most units and characters, both of which can be dealt with to an extent by the right magic items and a BSB (which is essential to any ogre list IMO).