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1. What other vehicle with AV14 all-around is cheaper?
2. What other AV14-vehicle has more protection than a Monolith?
3. What other AV14-vehicle has DS-protection?

I'd say with the ability to throw out almost anything after DS'ing, combined with the firepower on this thing it's the strongest AV14-vehicles in the game.

Getting away from the starting point gents.

Necrons? Can they win without spamming fliers and/or allies in a tournament setting?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Why is the monolith trash?

Very expensive for a AV 14 vehicle with no protection vs. anti-tank weapons, poor weaponry and terrible deep-strike capabilities make it very sub-par and virtually useless in a comp meta. It needs deep-strike protection and sth. that helps vs. meltas...or anything. Sure, the old thing was overpowered as hell, but the current iteration is a bad joke and a slap in the face of Necron players.

1) So is every AV14 vehicle

2) How many AV14 all around vehicles that have a S8 AP3 ordnance weapons can you think of? Besides, it a support vehicle, not an assault vehicle. It's job is to get your guys close enough to do the killing.

3) The DS is the same as everything else. You just have to be cautious this time instead of dropping it in the middle of enemy squads.

For it's cost, it's actually pretty good.

The starting point was: "That being said the question is: How well can the Codex stand on its own, without spamming fliers or allies?"
And to that I will say: Sure, they will do awesome.

"Necrons? Can they win without spamming fliers and/or allies in a tournament setting?"
That depends.
Some of the newer armies have some heavy models that we cannot deal with.

Necron players are apparently spoiled and don't know what a bad dex is.
Nec player-"My necron warriors suck!"
opponent - "Maybe, but half of them just got back up while my guys remain dead.
Nec player - "So? Look at their stats! You killed two more than I did."
opponent - "But...half of them just got back up. What part of this aren't you understanding?"
Nec player - "Um...the core concept?"

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


1) So is every AV14 vehicle

2) How many AV14 all around vehicles that have a S8 AP3 ordnance weapons can you think of? Besides, it a support vehicle, not an assault vehicle. It's job is to get your guys close enough to do the killing.

3) The DS is the same as everything else. You just have to be cautious this time instead of dropping it in the middle of enemy squads.

For it's cost, it's actually pretty good.

The main thing that matters is front armor and you got some really strong matchups there with front AV 14 with far superior weaponry at a lower cost. Getting your guys close enough to do the killing isn't what the Necron army needs, the exact opposite is the case. If you get charged, you die. The Monolith (aka the old one) was a support vehicle as it allows you to, well, *support* your troops by giving them additional repair possibilities and letting you teleport them out of a fight. The monolith cannot do any of these. You either hold it back and use its gun by paying a super-premium price for it, or DS it in and immediately lose a model worth 200 pts in the next turn. DS'ing is a huge problem due to its enormous size - you cannot let it DS anywhere near the enemy or impassable terrain and if you want to make sure you don't scatter into said places, you have to place it really far away from the enemy.

The thing is: you want to get your guys "close enough to do the killing"? Nightscythe. Infinitely superior.

But hey, it makes for a good LOS blocking terrain piece. That's an upside.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Necron players are apparently spoiled and don't know what a bad dex is.
Nec player-"My necron warriors suck!"
opponent - "Maybe, but half of them just got back up while my guys remain dead.
Nec player - "So? Look at their stats! You killed two more than I did."
opponent - "But...half of them just got back up. What part of this aren't you understanding?"
Nec player - "Um...the core concept?"

Nah, I think a few of them are the old stubborn types who are in love with the old dex. You know, the one that was really out of date and had absolutely no variety and relied on a couple of gimmicks that didn't work too well, one of which was undermined by a ridiculous army wide special rule...

Yeah, I didn't like the old dex very much. Though the pariahs (conceptually. The execution was terrible) and the old monolith were great.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Necron players are apparently spoiled and don't know what a bad dex is.
Nec player-"My necron warriors suck!"
opponent - "Maybe, but half of them just got back up while my guys remain dead.
Nec player - "So? Look at their stats! You killed two more than I did."
opponent - "But...half of them just got back up. What part of this aren't you understanding?"
Nec player - "Um...the core concept?"

Wow. I mean, just wow. Ignoring that no-one has been moaning about warriors and that you clearly are just annoyed at Necrons, let's dissect this post:

Necron Warriors:
-13 points
-4+ save with a bad version of FNP
-No options at all
-Weapons about equivalent to bolters but with difference that they can glance on 6's to penetrate (1/9 chance to glance per shot).

If hit by AP5 or worse weaponry and the unit isn't wiped out, you can expect to lose a third of the amount of wounds inflicted - the same as an MEQ. However, they have neither the options of any marine, no ATSKNF, no grenades, lower initiative, no pistol, no sergeant to throw away in challenges and they have no way to mitigate losing in Assault. The closest comparable troop is basic CSM who also cost 13 points each but get pistols, frags, kraks and weapon options instead of a 1/9 chance to glance per shot. Dark Angels have Tactical Marines at 1 point more each which have ATSKNF and stubborn. Does that seem unfair to you? Do you see many people taking hordes of Tacticals or CSM then claiming they're very good? They're decent - that's it. Warriors perform worse than any given MEQ if they face AP4 weapons out of cover or are wiped out. MEQ perform worse if they face AP3/2 weapons out of cover. MEQ also have plasma/melta options, which Necrons pay through the nose for. I don't know how on earth you got that people were moaning about them being bad or why you seem to think Necron players are saying the codex is bad when literally no-one has said that, only that it needs help with big MCs and my argument that the internal balance is not good. You sure stomped that strawman flat though.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Necron players are apparently spoiled and don't know what a bad dex is.
Nec player-"My necron warriors suck!"
opponent - "Maybe, but half of them just got back up while my guys remain dead.
Nec player - "So? Look at their stats! You killed two more than I did."
opponent - "But...half of them just got back up. What part of this aren't you understanding?"
Nec player - "Um...the core concept?"

Stop derailing the thread, this is not what people are saying.
It's not that "My warriors suck!" but that "My Flayed Ones suck!" or "My C'tan sucks!"
It's that according to them a few units are WAAAAAAY above average while the rest is below average.
The complaint is that you either take wraiths and flyers or you don't bother coming to a tournament.

There is a difference between a bad codex and a bad codex.
A codex might win all tournaments by spamming the same two models, but it still remains a bad codex when everything else is useless.
A codex is also bad when it doesn't have the tools to compete in a tournament.
So you see? A codex can be 'bad' in two different ways.

My opinion is that this "problem" isn't enough to call it 'bad' or 'terrible balance', I think that tournaments are only a very small part of this game and you're better off playing a non-tabletop game if you want tournament-balance.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


1) So is every AV14 vehicle

2) How many AV14 all around vehicles that have a S8 AP3 ordnance weapons can you think of? Besides, it a support vehicle, not an assault vehicle. It's job is to get your guys close enough to do the killing.

3) The DS is the same as everything else. You just have to be cautious this time instead of dropping it in the middle of enemy squads.

For it's cost, it's actually pretty good.

The main thing that matters is front armor and you got some really strong matchups there with front AV 14 with far superior weaponry at a lower cost. Getting your guys close enough to do the killing isn't what the Necron army needs, the exact opposite is the case. If you get charged, you die. The Monolith (aka the old one) was a support vehicle as it allows you to, well, *support* your troops by giving them additional repair possibilities and letting you teleport them out of a fight. The monolith cannot do any of these. You either hold it back and use its gun by paying a super-premium price for it, or DS it in and immediately lose a model worth 200 pts in the next turn. DS'ing is a huge problem due to its enormous size - you cannot let it DS anywhere near the enemy or impassable terrain and if you want to make sure you don't scatter into said places, you have to place it really far away from the enemy.

The thing is: you want to get your guys "close enough to do the killing"? Nightscythe. Infinitely superior.

But hey, it makes for a good LOS blocking terrain piece. That's an upside.

How is the Nightscythe superior? I can send a squad behind enemy lines per turn turn with the monolith. I need at least 2 turns with the nightscythe - 1 to get to the squad and 1 to bring them back. If the scythe dies in transit (and it most likely will since everyone is now getting some sort of AA) the squad is sent all the way back to my board edge.

You do need to get close enough to kill - necron weapons generally have a 24" kill zone. The idea with the scythe / veil of darkness / monolith is to get a squad to an objective, or next to a vehicle so it can be torn apart with gauss.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


How is the Nightscythe superior? I can send a squad behind enemy lines per turn turn with the monolith. I need at least 2 turns with the nightscythe - 1 to get to the squad and 1 to bring them back. If the scythe dies in transit (and it most likely will since everyone is now getting some sort of AA) the squad is sent all the way back to my board edge.

You do need to get close enough to kill - necron weapons generally have a 24" kill zone. The idea with the scythe / veil of darkness / monolith is to get a squad to an objective, or next to a vehicle so it can be torn apart with gauss.

As soon as you DS your monolith, it's destroyed in the next enemy player turn. The Nightscythe allows for fast and pin-point accurate drops of individual units, scoring units in the best case - and it's half as expensive as a monolith. The 24'' is another issue - it's valid for Tesla, but Gauss real threat range is at about 18'', some of our most effective weapons are even 36''. 24'' as the "death zone" seems wrong to me, just because we got Tesla.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


How is the Nightscythe superior? I can send a squad behind enemy lines per turn turn with the monolith. I need at least 2 turns with the nightscythe - 1 to get to the squad and 1 to bring them back. If the scythe dies in transit (and it most likely will since everyone is now getting some sort of AA) the squad is sent all the way back to my board edge.

You do need to get close enough to kill - necron weapons generally have a 24" kill zone. The idea with the scythe / veil of darkness / monolith is to get a squad to an objective, or next to a vehicle so it can be torn apart with gauss.

As soon as you DS your monolith, it's destroyed in the next enemy player turn. The Nightscythe allows for fast and pin-point accurate drops of individual units, scoring units in the best case - and it's half as expensive as a monolith. The 24'' is another issue - it's valid for Tesla, but Gauss real threat range is at about 18'', some of our most effective weapons are even 36''. 24'' as the "death zone" seems wrong to me, just because we got Tesla.

Oh really, because I DS my monolith quite often, and it usually lasts a bit longer than 1 enemy turn.
The only weapons with 36" range are HGC and EL. Those aren't very common, and they aren't as reliable as mass flayer fire at wrecking vehicles.

Lucky you, our maps have too much terrain for something as big as a Monolith to deepstrike.
My tactic would involve sending two of them forward under cover from the rest of my army, then teleport some squads that can handle themselves in melee or a Warrior-group to deal with tanks.

And 18"?
I think the optimal range for Gauss is at 12", anything above and I prefer using Tesla-Immortals.

@CthuluIsSpy: We usually got quite a bit of Terrain and you are thus limited to places where you can reliably deepstrike, plus our meta is heavily driven by IG and Necrons, both armies that excelt at turning any vehicle to dust in seconds.

The strongest Necron weapons are 36'' which is the Destrotek and the Heavy Destroyers - both are efficient units while the latter is slighty overpriced. High S / AP weapons are the main downfall of Necrons as they have a very limited arry of those.

@Kangodo: 18'' because that's 6'' movement and then 12'' double-tap.

Oh, and don't get me wrong guys: I absolutely LOVE the Monolith model. That's why I seem so upset about the entire issue - GW ruined it. The monolith not having deepstrike protection anymore, compared to the Monolith, is a major downfall and downright idiotic, both from a rules and a fluff perspective.

I have a 1/6 chance of suffering from immobilized result, and I'm not going to move much after DSing anyway. So teleporting in terrain doesn't bother me that much. The monolith to me is just a way to establish a bulkhead in the enemy deployment zone.

Yeah, using monoliths against IG and crons is a bad idea. They usually have Anti AV14 in abundance.


What annoys me about the monolith's fluff is that it now has crew. Like, necrons driving it. Which is silly.

Oh, don't even get me started on this one...Tomb Blades...I mean...seriously? First: Necrons are robots, why even have a pilot? Secondly: if you even have a pilot, why the feck don't you let him SEE where he goes? Instead, he gets a green screen to look down at while driving. This is beyond stupid :(

Anyway, as a TruCron player, I still consider 3rd ed fluff canon and have my beloved, custom-made TruCron codex aka one book with the 3rd fluff and 5th rules all merged together layout-wise to look genuine.

Well.. Duuuuuh!
He's a robot, he doesn't need to see. He uses the built-in radar from the Tomb Blade itself.
Same goes for the flyers.

But in the new lore the vehicles aren't robots anymore.
You had the Necrontyr with their vehicles and the drivers turned into robots.
Only Canoptek are the real robots now!

Tomb Blades are supposed to be even stupider than Warriors though. >> Apparently they can only fly pre-programmed courses, which actually makes Scarabs smarter than them.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Tomb Blades are supposed to be even stupider than Warriors though. >> Apparently they can only fly pre-programmed courses, which actually makes Scarabs smarter than them.

Which begs the question, why have a "pilot" at all? Why not just a computer? Having the pilot exposed like that is a bit silly. I suspect they were trying to go for a HR Giger sort of thing as usual, but failed miserably.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Tomb Blades are supposed to be even stupider than Warriors though. >> Apparently they can only fly pre-programmed courses, which actually makes Scarabs smarter than them.

Which begs the question, why have a "pilot" at all? Why not just a computer? Having the pilot exposed like that is a bit silly. I suspect they were trying to go for a HR Giger sort of thing as usual, but failed miserably.

Having all of your vehicles being open-topped is plain silly already. I mean, they are the technologically most advanced race in the entire universe and all they come up with are open-topped vehicles? I bet the Deceiver is laughing his ass of :(

Well, clearly even robots get claustrophobic. Which is why the flyers have that cockpit exposed.

God that's a stupid design...good thing FW was smart enough to cover their flyer's cockpit.