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Now, bear with me here, and read what I have to say before yelling "Necrons OP, fliers, helldrake allies"
I'm not griping because I got beat recently, I have a good track record in 6th, i'm just prodding the community brain here.

Necrons, with Tau and Eldar out, how do we stack up? They both outshoot us, and it seems nowadays, that the only way to run a cron army competitively anymore, is to run nothing but flyers with minimum troops, wraiths and destroyer lords with barge support, with CSM allies, for the super cheese that is the Helldrake. It kinda bums me out that I don't see more variety in a fairly well interally balanced and interesting codex.
That being said,I only run one flier usually, and average 6 wraiths.
Without relying on outright spamming allies and fliers, where does the codex stand? Tau pick us apart with range, ap3 templates and ignoring cover, when we need to get closer to even shoot back. Eldar have psuedo-rending and wave serpent spam.
I refuse to believe that the majority community thinks the only way to run them is to sell out to the meta? I outright refuse to use allies, they were an awful idea in the first place.

That being said the question is: How well can the Codex stand on its own, without spamming fliers or allies?

In my opinion it heavily depends on the meta and especially the level on which they play.

I have never played a game with allies and I have been doing well.
And so far I have only fielded one flyer once.

It actually shocked me when I read in some other thread that "necrons have terrible internal balance".
My Blood Angels are more like: "Take this tactic or lose.", whereas for the Necrons I can change my tactic every match and still do okay.

*Waits for SoloFalcon to come to the thread and complain about the use of the word "meta" *

 The Shadow wrote:
*Waits for SoloFalcon to come to the thread and complain about the use of the word "meta" *

I entered this thread just to post this. Lolol

I think the answer is in the meta.

I keep hearing about the Cron air lists with 6-9 fliers, and then I hear about the guys who don't want to be called TFG so they only take 1 or 2. Well the answer is in the middle. Do not deny the fact that Crons have great air support, just don't go crazy with it. Also why not use them how they are intended, rapid deployment of shock troops. I have never seen a list with more than 5 warriors in a NS. My lists run 2 NSs with 8 warriors and a Stormtek and 2 NSs with full sqads of tesla immortals.

That's 4 NSs and I have never been called TFG, you know why? I don't keep the troops in the NSs the whole game, and I actually use the troops to fight stuff.

@ Kangodo, I agree
Some of my opponents are very competitive and require better strategy, but I find the same lists are still relatively effective (barring a few changes)

@ The Shadow
Then we can discuss it for what its worth

@13rads
Thats how i use my 1-2 fliers, usually to deploy squads of gauss immortals early-mid game onto my enemy's flanks or objectives, and kill whatever holds them.
I usually run 5 warriors with a stormtek for cheap tank hunting, or a whole 10 immortals in mine

Necrons are still completely competitive and on par with the other armies.

That said, I'm basing that off the fact that Tau aren't overpowered compared to my Sisters, rather than out of actually using my Necrons.

The Necron codex DOES have terrible internal balance. Praetorians are essentially strictly worse than Wraiths, as are Lychguard, as are flayed ones. They all occupy the same role - aggressive assault/counter-assault, yet Wraiths are the only ones even viable (and in fact arguably too good). There are 6 Cryptek types, yet only 2 see frequent use - storm and despair+deathmarks. Transmorg has been neutered and wasn't super effective ever. Eternity crypteks are only useful with Imotekh. Destruction crypteks, once the favoured are now not really better than anyone at anything and at the end of the day, a slightly better missile launcher for 35 points on T4 4+ is extremely underwhelming. I'm the only one I've ever seen even try and use non-upgraded ones and they did okay but only really killed MEQ effectively. Destroyers are bad generally, suffering the same issue as Crypteks which is that they're only really useful against MEQs out of cover. Troops have no special weapon options of their own and rely on Royal Courts, which in turn rely on specific HQs. That means that otherwise decent options like Szeras and Orikan are practically unusable, offering no special support to troops nor a combat edge. C'tan shards are very overcosted - for the price of a Riptide with FNP, you get T7 W4 4++. Even 3 tesla destructors can kill that in one turn and with neither good shooting nor jump movement, they tend to explode quickly without doing anything. W1 lords cost 10 points more than a Cryptek and for that you get 1 attack, 1 strength and 1 toughness. Normally that might be okay, but then you realise that if they join either Immortals or Warriors, they essentially become T4. On top of that, neither of those units want to be in combat and to give him even a chance to strike in most situations you'll make him cost 60 points for MSS+WS - at which point you're spending 60 points on a non-shooting MEQ. Res Orb lords are an even worse value proposition as if you get in combat you'll likely be swept denying the res orb and if you get shot, most people will wipe the entire unit at once. Doomsday Arks are okay, but can't move so tend to perform worse than a Monolith and if used for anti-tank fill a very redundant role. Triarch Stalkers also suffer from this, though they're reasonable - they just don't fit 99% of armies.

At the other end of the spectrum, we have a 100 point flyer which can drop troops anywhere whilst zooming and puts out as much firepower as 4 BS4 autocannons. Annihilation Barges are heavily undercosted, at 90 points you get not only more armour than a rifledread but also better shooting and another gun. Wraiths are very, very good for their points but more importantly serve as good delivery for a D Lord. MSS are broken, yet also the only actual option to deal with almost any threat in assault - without them, you lose vs any S10, most high initiative AP2 and almost any given assaulty special character. I wouldn't complain about that so much, but with no real way to stop the new MCs like Wraithkinghts, Riptides and even Dreadknights without allies, assaulting MCs with wraith+D Lord blocks is pretty much the only answer. Scarabs aren't too good now but in 5th they were disgustingly effective against vehicles and still create a huge "you can't come close to this" zone.

The codex is supported by very little indeed. There's no doubting what's good is good, but the bad stuff just loses to any shooting army. That was bad before, but now the supports die to Tau and Eldar - Wraiths don't stand up to Tau gunlines and AV11 flyers can't take the immense missile spam of Tau, yet at the same time Necrons have almost no cover mitigation and Wraithknights might as well just be a middle finger, requiring on average 11 tesla destructors - that's 3 Annihilation Barges firing only at it for 4 turns. If they take 2 or Riptide allies (who take 9 Tesla destructors on average), you pretty much lose.

Are Necrons still good? Of course, the undercosted broken stuff is still undercosted and broken. However, I believe we're now in a position that NEEDS allies to have a true TAC list, as there is just no good high S low AP shooting in the army. Be it Grey Knights, Tau or Ork tarpits, everyone needs an answer to Riptides and Wraithknights - Necrons haven't got a true one unless the enemy is stupid enough to let them get hit by MSS. They can do a lot of things that aren't just wraithwing too - dropping 10 man Immortal squads in the enemy backfield is pretty crazy, yet rarely seen as most people want to spend the minimum possible on troops. Mini scarab farms perform exceptionally against Serpentspam, as the scarab bases are small enough to hide from most long range shooting. Essentially, Necrons are still in a good place, just worse than they were before. As long as you can ally in something to deal with a few MCs, you're good to go.

Why not just use deathmarks or Spyders on the monstrous creatures? Solves things for me.

Then again, I do run a slightly unusual Necron army - based around Scarabs, Spyders, and teleporting Immortal squads.

You really don't know the meaning of the word terrible, do you?
Both Praetorians and Lychguard see enough play and do a good job, that job is to kill terminators and they are excellent at that. They really don't have the same roll as Wraiths.

First of all: There are only 5 Crypteks. Second: Four of them see frequent use.
Your personal experience with them really doesn't proof anything.

For those 10 points you don't get a Lord, you get the option to actually buy stuff for it.
MSS, Warscythes, Ressurection Orbs, 2+ save.
Are you really going to tell me that Lords are bad? That is one of the most stupid things I have ever read on the internet, just like the rest of this post.

7 out of 9 HQ's see play and are good.
4 out of 6 Elites see play and are good.
Both troop choices are often used.
3 out of 4 FA-slots are played more often than not.
From the 5 HS, only the Doomsday Ark sees little play.

So where does that leave us in useful stuff:
HQ: 77%
Elite: 66.66%
Troops: 100%
FA: 75%
HS: 80%
Things would get even better if we added every FW-option to their list.

Now do you want to compare that to almost any codex out there? Let's compare it to Blood Angels or Orks!
But noooo, "they have terrible internal balance". bs! They have great balance.
Balance doesn't mean that everything has to be possible in a toptier-tournament list.

@ Furyou Miko
Thats what I mean, you have an unusual list, and it works for you. Why do we seem to be so 1-dimensional in competitive play?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kangodo
I would mostly agree with your assessment, however I must ask, why do you think competitive lists are so 1-dimensional? Can they be competitive without allies or flier spam?

Kangodo wrote:

First of all: There are only 5 Crypteks.

Six - Vanilla, Despair, Destruction, Eternity, Storm, Transmorgrification

...and for what it's worth, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle of Kangodo and Eyjio's statements.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Six - Vanilla, Despair, Destruction, Eternity, Storm, Transmorgrification

In that spirit there are 7 Crypteks if you count no Cryptek at all.
That's like saying 'bolters' are a valid option if you count the weapons a Devastator-squad can take.

 iGuy91 wrote:
@Kangodo
I would mostly agree with your assessment, however I must ask, why do you think competitive lists are so 1-dimensional? Can they be competitive without allies or flier spam?

It's not 100% 1-dimensional.
Everyone can take whatever they want to a tournament.
But when I talk about tournament-lists, I'm talking about the "everything that isn't the best, sucks!"-attitude that some people have.
Personally I try to stay away from that gaming-attitude.

My personal assessment is more on a "cost"-basis: Will I feel bad for spending so much points/cash on a unit for what it does?
I think it's highly influenced by playing Space Marines before.
200 pnt Flayed Ones cause 5 kills against SM's and cost 108 euro.
200 pnt Lychguard result into 7 kills and cost 26 euro.
It's probably why Flayed Ones are so 'hated' in the community, they are so expensive.

Kangodo wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Six - Vanilla, Despair, Destruction, Eternity, Storm, Transmorgrification

In that spirit there are 7 Crypteks if you count no Cryptek at all.
That's like saying 'bolters' are a valid option if you count the weapons a Devastator-squad can take.

If he had said there were 6 options, I could see your argument having the slightest bit of validity - but he didn't. He said types and a vanilla cryptek is still a type of cryptek...and one of the more useful ones.

Kangodo wrote:
You really don't know the meaning of the word terrible, do you?
Both Praetorians and Lychguard see enough play and do a good job, that job is to kill terminators and they are excellent at that. They really don't have the same roll as Wraiths.

No they don't. Both are awful at killing terminators - the only exceptions are Lychguard with Warscythes or Rod Praetorians vs assault terminators. In all other situations, Terminators wipe the floor with both Praetorians and sword+board Lychguard - Praetorians either strike at the same time with weaker attacks or have rending, which is far worse than TH/PFs yet have no invuln, S+B Lychguard don't ignore armour and have a worse invuln save than TH/SS and also cost more. Believe me, I love the Lychguard HS/DS models and have used them a lot, because I enjoy seeing them. However, they're only good in friendly usage where neither person has tried to optimise - at which point almost everything in 40k is "viable".

First of all: There are only 5 Crypteks. Second: Four of them see frequent use.
Your personal experience with them really doesn't proof anything.

No. 2 see frequent use. The other 2 are used in specific situations which I said before and even then those uses are ever decreasing. The 6th type is staff of light crypteks, which are better than plasma VS MEQ/GEQ and worse vs everything else. I've tried making Crypteks more versatile too, running 5 Destructeks as faux-devastators which can snipe special weapons. It doesn't really work because theycost so much and have that Overlord tax. I don't really understand why this is contentious - when was the last time, outside of an Imotekh list, you saw anything that wasn't a Stormtek or Despairtek?

For those 10 points you don't get a Lord, you get the option to actually buy stuff for it.
MSS, Warscythes, Ressurection Orbs, 2+ save.
Are you really going to tell me that Lords are bad? That is one of the most stupid things I have ever read on the internet, just like the rest of this post.

If they are so good, why does no-one use them competitively? Right, because at the end of the day you can dress him up however you want but it's still a super expensive non-shooting MEQ. Res Orbs are bad on lords - you almost double their cost and it's only cost effective on max sized troop units. 2+ saves are decent at best and you still only have 1 wound with 4+ LOS!, so it can't effectively deflect small arms as any AP2 kills him. MSS are good - buty uo shouldn't get them into combat to begin with and if you're taking lords, you have an Overlord to give MSS anyway. If someone told you that they were going to footslog a 1 wound terminator with a bunch of tactical marines, you'd laugh at how stupid that sounded. This is similar, except it's not even as good as a terminator and costs more.

7 out of 9 HQ's see play and are good.
4 out of 6 Elites see play and are good.
Both troop choices are often used.
3 out of 4 FA-slots are played more often than not.
From the 5 HS, only the Doomsday Ark sees little play.

I never said anything bad about the HQs. It's probably the best balanced part of the codex, barring the stupidity of not letting the Cryptek SCs have a Royal Court, therfore making no-one use them seriously.
Let's then look at elites shall we?
-Deathmarks - good with a gimmicky cryptek
-Triarch Stalkers - expensive 1 gun MM dreadnaught, still usable
-Flayed ones - trash outside of the IA12 list
-C'tan - overcosted, almost unusable in the current state of the game
-Lychguard - outclassed, not good anyway
-Praetorians - also outclassed, essentially 40 point non-scoring assault marines with 6" plasma guns.

So where does that leave us in useful stuff:
HQ: 77%
Elite: 66.66%
Troops: 100%
FA: 75%
HS: 80%
Things would get even better if we added every FW-option to their list.

HQs I agree with.
Elites I don't think any are actually good. I would say deathmarks are actually useful for despairteks but otherwise there's a reason no-one takes other elites to tournaments - they're not good enough to use.
Troops are not fantastic, hence most people run min units. They are better than many codices but the lack of plasma options cripples their effectiveness VS anything that's not a tank/GEQ.
Fast attack gives us Wraiths and scarabs. Not sure how that's 75%. Last time I checked tomb blades were not used as they fulfil a useless role and destroyers are terrible. That's 50%.
Heavy Support I actually think everything is useful in, though Monoliths are a bit sketchy they're getting better with the recent lack of melta just like Land Raiders. The issue is that Spyders are the only thing used other than Annihilation Barges, and that's to farm scarabs. Why? Because Annihilation Barges are hugely undercosted and with the general lack of plasma, Necrons NEED the reliable S7 shooting which only they can provide. Why take a DD Ark when an Annihilation Barge is so much stronger and a Doom Scythe does so much more? Why take a Doom Scythe when they're a huge target and have dodgy LOS issues? Why take a Monolith for the S8 AP3 large blast when you can take mass S7 for less than half the cost? Again, horrible internal balance.

Do you want to run through the FW stuff too? Tomb sentinels - bad Tomb Stalkers. Tomb stalkers - C'tan without the invuln, so die even faster to plasma. Sentry pylons - basic is okay (massively outclassed by sabres who, point for point are twice as durable, more accurate and scoring), Death Ray is pretty good, Heat Cannon is overcosted next to the Death Ray. Night Shrouds are good until the opponent realises bombs are super easy to mitigate by castling and spacing correctly, at which point they're worse than Doom Scythes. Acanthrites are super good tarpits/vehicle hunters, so that's okay but if you listen to punters on the internet, they're not worth it next to Wraiths (which I think is wrong personally, they're very different). The Tomb Citadel I don't own because I don't play on ROB boards that can easily swap an entire tile, nor do I have safe transport for it. Overall, they basically added bad Sabres, an alpha strike Death Ray and Acanthrites - the rest will either be rare, outclassed by Wraiths or just not taken. Again, it's a shame because IMO the Tomb Stalker is one of the nicest FW models. The balance is certainly better comparing FW and the normal stuff, but that's not really useful in a talk about how terrible the internal codex balance is. Especially when they were written in 6e.

Now do you want to compare that to almost any codex out there? Let's compare it to Blood Angels or Orks!

A codex that's been weakened by the mass switch to plasma and a codex that's 5 years old and not even updated for 5th, let alone 6th? Yeah, no wonder they're worse for heavens sake. Even then, without Night Scythes, Annihilation Barges and Wraiths, Necrons would be arguably worse off than Blood Angels, having no way to stop 3+ MCs other than lots of lucky MSS at all. Heaven forbid they'd face Tyranids in such a situation, that's almost auto-lose.

But noooo, "they have terrible internal balance". bs! They have great balance.

Do you think people keep using the same predictable list because it's popular or because it's the best list we can make? Do you think you see Wraiths in every list because they're the coolest models rather than the best assault practically in the game? Necrons have terrible balance - it was better in 5th, but now it's really poor. If other things worked, people would take them and do well. Why? Because nobody would expect it. As it stands, every tournament top 16 member I can think of has used NSs, Wraiths and A Barges. Every single one. That's a pretty clear sign of bad internal balance.

Balance doesn't mean that everything has to be possible in a toptier-tournament list.

Yes, it does actually. If your codex is perfectly balanced with the game and with itself, you can point to almost any unit and take it in a top tier list. In the new Tau codex, you can do this. In the new Eldar codex, it's a bit worse off than Tau but you can still mostly do this. In the Necron codex... you can't really. If you cut out 50% of the content you can almost do it, but you'll still generally be beaten by Wraithwing even then.You can use whatever you want in a friendly game but don't delude yourself that your list is the best it could be, nor that you wouldn't be better off using Wraithwing. Even then, I'd like to see you run your list against a stronger one like a Tau gun line or a Grey Knight/Eldar MC spam list. The codex is a god send to Necrons, reviving them from almost total obscurity. It made my personal favourite army top tier. I won't tell myself it's well balanced in 6e though, because it just isn't.

Can the Necron codex make a list that's better than almost any other list in the game? Yes. Are most of their choices good compared to NS/Wraith/AB spam? No. Are most of their choices competitive? No. How can you possibly sit there and say that's well balanced? How can you say, hand on heart that the internal balance between a T4 W2 3++ rending jump infantry is good next to a more expensive T5 W1 3+ AP2 foot slogger? It's just not. Non-Wraiths lose to TH/SS terminators. Non-wraiths lose to MCs. Is that good balance? I don't get it.

 Zande4 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
*Waits for SoloFalcon to come to the thread and complain about the use of the word "meta" *

I entered this thread just to post this. Lolol

If you could sum up each Dakkanaut in one word, Solo would be "Grumpy".

Wait, people are complaining about the Necron codex?
Its one of the better armies out there, not even counting the fliers.

Given how Necrons still happily dominate most tourneys I'd say they're doing pretty well.

 Kain wrote:
Given how Necrons still happily dominate most tourneys I'd say they're doing pretty well.

So if all the non-tournament units where 10 points for models with all statistics set at 1, without any armour save or special rules, you would say they are doing pretty well?

This might sound weird: But most people don't care about the tournament lists.
Let's take the BA as example: I don't care about some Rhino/Razorback-list winning a tournament, I want the other stuff to be at least playable in my games.

Eyjio wrote:
part 1: Lychguard and Praetorians

But that means that two out of four wargear-selections are playable.
All of those selections have a role that they are decent at, decent enough to not call them 'terrible'.
WS-Lych: Terminators
S+B-Lych: MEQ, those often bring AP3-weaponry.
Rod-Prt: Terminators
Blade-PRT: I will give you that, they are quite bad. It's comparable to ASM but double the cost. That problem lies within the Voidblade and their attacks.

And there is a difference between optimising and 'a good list'.
Optimising means that you take the best possible list, this will always leave 80% of a codex in the gutter. It's unavoidable!
That doesn't make the internal balance 'terrible' as you called it.
Terrible internal balance is when you have to take the optimal list to friendly games because they will wipe the floor with anything else.

part 2: About the Lords.

So because the top-tier lists don't use them, they are terrible?
They are often used in tournaments.
They are almost ALWAYS used in any other game.

Part 3: Codex analysis

Why would they give the Crypteks a Royal Court? That's like giving Librarians an Honour Guard!
-Deathmarks are good enough without Crypteks, they could only use a bit more range (but that might make Rapid Fire a bit overpowered).
-Triarch Stalker's strength is in bringing some S9-AP2 firepower that makes everything else Twin-Linked.
-Flayed Ones are indeed suffering hard from not being a troop, hopefully they change that with the next codex.
-C'tan are indeed overcosted, that's why I said they weren't that good.
-Lychguard: Outclassed perhaps, but still good.
-Praetorians: That's why you take them with Rods, that makes them good enough to play.

The rest: Destroyers often see play and are not bad at all.
Why take a Monolith? Because they are freaking awesome and provide superior shooting and transportation compared to stuff like Land Raiders.

Yes, it does actually. If your codex is perfectly balanced with the game and with itself, you can point to almost any unit and take it in a top tier list. In the new Tau codex, you can do this. In the new Eldar codex, it's a bit worse off than Tau but you can still mostly do this. In the Necron codex... you can't really. If you cut out 50% of the content you can almost do it, but you'll still generally be beaten by Wraithwing even then.You can use whatever you want in a friendly game but don't delude yourself that your list is the best it could be, nor that you wouldn't be better off using Wraithwing. Even then, I'd like to see you run your list against a stronger one like a Tau gun line or a Grey Knight/Eldar MC spam list. The codex is a god send to Necrons, reviving them from almost total obscurity. It made my personal favourite army top tier. I won't tell myself it's well balanced in 6e though, because it just isn't.

I'll keep this brief:
If you want a game where you can take any unit and expect an auto-win at tournaments, you are looking at the wrong game.
If you want to win at a tournament, you have to take the best list and there is only one possible list for most armies.
I would love to point out a game that works in a different way, but it doesn't exist.
Even TCG's work exactly like that: "You want to play this 'theme'? Take this best list or go home!".

There is a reason that GW doesn't support official tournaments and that is because the game is not intended for that.
So if you look at balance, you will have to look at the playability outside of "Spam the best your codex has!"

But more on those tournaments:
In a month or two people will find out the best use out of the Tau or Eldar codex, even if that build has only 5% more chance of winning and they will all spam the same list over and over, just like with Necrons.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Alexander-Fennells-Necrons-1st-Seed-Adepticon-2012.pdf
See that? It's the 2012-winner from Adepticon.
Notice how it has Overlords, Command Barges, Monoliths and Ghost Arks?
It took people quite some time to figure out that D-Lords with Wraiths, A-Barges and Troops in flyers gave you a small advantage and that's when everybody started spamming it.

Within a year the meta will have changed and Necrons will adept, they might even (probably) take other units.
And that is what good internal balance means: The meta shifts, you take other codex-units and you are just as competitive as before.
It does NOT mean that any list should be able to annihilate the current meta.
Good internal balance also means that you can have fun with any unit, playing almost any list you have.
It's when you can buy any model and you know that you will field it sooner or later, because they don't suck.

Oh the Cron book has issues but it's probably the Book with the fewest.

Its less Necrons got worse and more Tau and Eldar are no longer door mats for everyone else.

Seriously nothing much as changed. they are still strong and have the same tricks.

How exactly did Necrons get worse? I can't believe there are people complaining about the latest codex. Need to get some more popcorn and enjoy the show.

Not ever model can be taken to the world-championship, it's quite terrible you know..
Everyone knows that the WCS is the standard for balance and enjoyment!

But that means that two out of four wargear-selections are playable.
All of those selections have a role that they are decent at, decent enough to not call them 'terrible'.
WS-Lych: Terminators
S+B-Lych: MEQ, those often bring AP3-weaponry.
Rod-Prt: Terminators
Blade-PRT: I will give you that, they are quite bad. It's comparable to ASM but double the cost. That problem lies within the Voidblade and their attacks.

Having a role isn't enough to make them playable and I never called them terrible. TEQ are not something Necrons struggle with. S+B Lych are the best of the lot because they have a use that's not redundant, but even then a 3+ isn't good enough at 40 points with no shooting. It's just not really worth it.

And there is a difference between optimising and 'a good list'.
Optimising means that you take the best possible list, this will always leave 80% of a codex in the gutter. It's unavoidable!
That doesn't make the internal balance 'terrible' as you called it.
Terrible internal balance is when you have to take the optimal list to friendly games because they will wipe the floor with anything else.

I disagree. There's taking the best possible list, and then there's taking a competitive list. From release, it took about 3 days for people to realise Annihilation Barges were the best Heavy Support and about a fortnight to see Wraiths were incredibly good in assault. When 6e dropped, everyone knew after the invasion beams FAQ just how broken Night Scythes were. IMO, it should take a little longer and whilst we didn't see Wraithwing all day every day in 5e, that's because it wasn't the best list in 5e. Lychguard and Praetorians have always been known to be worse than Wraiths - there's just no reason to take them. That, in my eyes, means the internal balance is shot to bits. Scythe spam have been obvious since the start of 6e. Wraiths have been a given since the blob squads became popular. I can't think of a reason, barring liking the models that you would take Lychguard given all the other options. Most of the codex is like that - the choices of what to take are very obvious most of the time.

So because the top-tier lists don't use them, they are terrible?

No, because they're W1 very expensive MEQ is why they're terrible.

They are often used in tournaments.

No they aren't.

They are almost ALWAYS used in any other game.

Maybe by you - not by most.

Why would they give the Crypteks a Royal Court? That's like giving Librarians an Honour Guard!

Not really. Besides, you allow them to be taken for balance - without them, no-one uses those SCs as they mean your squads get no special weapons. Why would a Royal Court require a babysitting Overlord?

-Deathmarks are good enough without Crypteks, they could only use a bit more range (but that might make Rapid Fire a bit overpowered).

They're decent, but with Immortals, they barely add anything - in some cases, they're actually worse. On top of that one scores, so unless DMs could kill MCs (they can't, even a marked Riptide only loses 3 wounds average) they have little use. What they needed was to be maybe 25-30 points each and have AP2 - very cost effective but non-scoring and weak. Then you could say RC members couldn't join to balance it a bit so they're like fire dragons.

-Triarch Stalker's strength is in bringing some S9-AP2 firepower that makes everything else Twin-Linked.

IMO, the HGC is not worth it - 1 S9 AP2 shot is pretty bad for the points. Even so, what are you twin linking? Gauss blasters? Most the good shooting in the Necron codex is already TL and they stuff that isn't doesn't really gain too much from being. Again, a useful vehicle but wrong codex for it.

-Flayed Ones are indeed suffering hard from not being a troop, hopefully they change that with the next codex.

Yeah, it seems weird to make them so bad. I mean, all they need is something like fearless or stubborn and boom - good unit. With no way to mitigate combat res and not scoring really just makes them bad.

Why take a Monolith? Because they are freaking awesome and provide superior shooting and transportation compared to stuff like Land Raiders.

I actually think people underrate them a lot - at the end of the day, it's 50 points more than a Leman Russ for AV14 all round and transport ability that pulls from reserves. Yeah, it can die to dedicated teams but that's really not bad at all.

I'll keep this brief:
If you want a game where you can take any unit and expect an auto-win at tournaments, you are looking at the wrong game.
If you want to win at a tournament, you have to take the best list and there is only one possible list for most armies.
I would love to point out a game that works in a different way, but it doesn't exist.
Even TCG's work exactly like that: "You want to play this 'theme'? Take this best list or go home!".

There is a reason that GW doesn't support official tournaments and that is because the game is not intended for that.
So if you look at balance, you will have to look at the playability outside of "Spam the best your codex has!"

Okay, I don't like this implication. I don't want to auto-win - that's boring and not fun. I don't want to always win - that's not good because I'm not the world's best player. You do NOT need to take the best possible list to win a tournament, as has been shown many times and you do NOT only have 1 list for most top armies. The Necron balance is just not there - if you don't spam the best, you end up with a list that barely functions and almost auto-loses to MC heavy lists. How is that in any way good or playable? I'm not saying the balance has to be perfect but to be able to use most of my units would be marvellous. As it is, I use them only when I know my opponent is bringing a fluffy/fun list, otherwise I tend to take an AV13 wall list. That's not good enough. I would say in 5e it was actually better for Necrons, but 6e has shaken the game too much for many of the units.

See that? It's the 2012-winner from Adepticon.
Notice how it has Overlords, Command Barges, Monoliths and Ghost Arks?
It took people quite some time to figure out that D-Lords with Wraiths, A-Barges and Troops in flyers gave you a small advantage and that's when everybody started spamming it.

That is Alex Fennells list from 5e. Not only is he quite an exceptional player but also admitted the list wasn't optimised. Do you know what I see in a 5e context? A scarab farm, solar pulses, fast AV13, Wraiths and backfield Immortal shooting. In 5e, that wasn't far from the normal Necron list. It's just not comparable to 6e and if you look at Adepticon 2013 you see the difference immediately.

Within a year the meta will have changed and Necrons will adept, they might even (probably) take other units.
And that is what good internal balance means: The meta shifts, you take other codex-units and you are just as competitive as before.
It does NOT mean that any list should be able to annihilate the current meta.
Good internal balance also means that you can have fun with any unit, playing almost any list you have.
It's when you can buy any model and you know that you will field it sooner or later, because they don't suck.

I agree with the last 4 points. Necrons however have no ability to adapt. They can trade NSDs for Ghost Arks when AA comes in. They can switch Wraiths for scarabs if vehicles come back. What they cannot do, and already struggle with, is beat MCs without MSS or mass tesla destructors. Where's the balance? Can I take Warscythe toting Lychguard with the expectation they'll ever outperform Wraiths or even S+B Lychguards? No. Necrons are built with the old design idea that everyone needs a weakness. That'd be fine, but their MC weakness is now magnified massively by the introduction of Wraithknights and Riptides, which without allies Necron lists cannot deal with. You can't shift to fix that, because you're already taking the best assault units you have and your shooting doesn't kill them. You need allies. I cannot buy any unit with the expectation it'll be good before a new codex. That IS bad internal balance.

How exactly did Necrons get worse? I can't believe there are people complaining about the latest codex. Need to get some more popcorn and enjoy the show.

Necrons can't handle the new MCs. Enjoy all you want, but it doesn't change that. Even in a casual game, 1 Wraithknight can ruin an entire list. Please though, be more condescending about how that isn't bad for Necrons.

Not ever model can be taken to the world-championship, it's quite terrible you know..
Everyone knows that the WCS is the standard for balance and enjoyment!

Don't be a jackass. If everything isn't on an even field, it isn't balanced. If you're admitting that, then you are admitting the internal balance is shot. Doesn't make Necrons bad. Doesn't make them unplayable. Does mean that they struggle with the new units. I really don't see why that's so contentious.

Necrons have one of the best dex's in the game. you have no excuse to complain.

i see chronoteks taken in royal court disco inferno lists.

i have run royal court lists to great effect and have placed 2nd in the last tournament i was in (my last game was the first time i played against the new tau so i just got facerolled) and i could have taken 1st had i known how to fight tau

destroyers are very good when given the HGC upgrade and are some of the only reliable long range anti av 14 we have.

i see destro-teks used to great effect with a solar pulse.

monoliths have taken a big jump in viability with the new tau dex but are still not to be spammed since they will take up 1/3 of your points in a standard 1850 tournament. One is great though.

There are other ways to play crons without spamming wraiths, fliers, and barges. They just wont be the best compared to them.

Necrons have great internal balance its just that they have a few units that dominate the majority of their slots. (Dlord, Fliers, Wraiths, Barges)

Tau are a strong matchup, but you just need to take more S8/S9 shooting in your lists now to take them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tau are a strong matchup, but you just need to take more S8/S9 shooting in your lists now to take them out.

Necrons, however, have a terrible internal balance.

Good stuff:
- Wraiths
- Annihilation Barges
- Flyers
- Nemesor Zandrekh
- Obyron
- Royal Court
- Destroyer Lord
- Tomb Spyders

-> 8

Okay stuff:
- Warriors
- Immortals
- Heavy Destroyers
- (maybe) Tomb Blades w/ Particle Caster
- Ghost Ark
- Scarabs
- Imotekh

-> 6

Trash:
- Monolith
- Flayed Ones
- LG
- TP
- CCB
- Anrakyr
- Szeras
- all other SC
- C'tan
- Doomsday Ark
- Destroyers

-> 12

Quick guide on how to make a Necron list: fill up Troops with the Okay stuff, then throw all the Good Stuff in you can fit, ignore everything else.

The fact that GW purposefully made the Monolith, one of the greatest models in all of 40k, in every sense, useless, is disgusting.

You should really get a dictionary and understand the meaning of trash.
Because.. seriously..

A better guide on making a Necron-list: Throw anything together as long as it has some sort of synergy and enjoy a good game with an above average chance of winning.

Why is the monolith trash?

 Formosa wrote:
Why is the monolith trash?

Very expensive for a AV 14 vehicle with no protection vs. anti-tank weapons, poor weaponry and terrible deep-strike capabilities make it very sub-par and virtually useless in a comp meta. It needs deep-strike protection and sth. that helps vs. meltas...or anything. Sure, the old thing was overpowered as hell, but the current iteration is a bad joke and a slap in the face of Necron players.