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 Mezmerro wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
can humans talk to bacon?

Well, some can.

Again, Tyranids at lest should have some IG and Ork allies at least to represent a genecult-infestated regiments and bug-boyz.

there should be something to cover infestations but I am not sure that the IG or Ork codexes reflect it.

Would a lord commisar
full kit of storm troopers
2 veteran squads in chimeras
3 vendettas
and 3 leman russ battle tanks represent a genestealer cult very well?

How about a mega armored warboss with a retinue of meganobs in a battlewagon and some flash gits represent ork infested?

Well, zero generation of infested are just basic species with the genesteakler implants that make them obey genestealer brood mind commands. Lord commissairs and warbosses have no immunity to being infested and in fact should be considered as a prime targets for infestation.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
can humans talk to bacon?

Well, some can.

Again, Tyranids at lest should have some IG and Ork allies at least to represent a genecult-infestated regiments and bug-boyz.

this is kinda true, but i feel that genestealer cult would really modify their stats, it's a physical change, not just mental.

genestealer cults need to be introduced to the nids, perhaps a supplement?

 some bloke wrote:

 Sideways wrote:
I was just thinking that tyranids what kill all life and the old necrons wanted the same thing, and can't the hive mind talk to nontyranids?

can humans talk to bacon?

nids not being able to ally with anyone is fluffy, it's too bad that they're the only ones that got ruined by the fluff. the fact that orks can ally with almost everyone, and that some of them are happy to do so, like t'au, is silly. I'd have had orks as desperate allies to everyone except chaos - chaos also being happy to just go kill things, offer the orks anything they want, etc which most other armies wouldn't do - necrons i can't see allying with orks, and hell if i know why they can ally with t'au... "are you for the greater good? why yes, we want to eradicate all life in the galaxy. oh, welcome aboard!"... that conversation didn't happen.

space marines should really have a simple filter: chaos & evil xenos scum, xenos scum and imperial. being come the apocalypse, desperate and battle bros, in that order. xenos scum would be eldar and t'au, who you could maybe accept fighting with space marines in the event that they find themselves both fighting the same enemy, and agree not to shoot each other until the enemie's dead.

I think the idea about primary to allied making a difference is really fluffy to orks because a horde of orks is pushing towards a waaagh but a small clan I think would be quite mercenary like if offered the right weapons and junk.

tyranids i think can be taken as "allies" to some races but it would feel like less of an alliance and more of herding some bugs to go eat the people that get lined up in front of them. it sounds stupid, but im just trying to figure it out.

 Exergy wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
can humans talk to bacon?

Well, some can.

Again, Tyranids at lest should have some IG and Ork allies at least to represent a genecult-infestated regiments and bug-boyz.

there should be something to cover infestations but I am not sure that the IG or Ork codexes reflect it.

Would a lord commisar
full kit of storm troopers
2 veteran squads in chimeras
3 vendettas
and 3 leman russ battle tanks represent a genestealer cult very well?

How about a mega armored warboss with a retinue of meganobs in a battlewagon and some flash gits represent ork infested?

If you have such a big issue with it don't play with that guy. If someone wants to play an actual genestealer cult they should know that a vendetta, a tank, suicide storm troopers, and 2 vet squads doesn't represent it well. Honestly the allies chart shouldn't even exist, just make everyone brothers in arms, some people will abuse it, but there are already plenty of abuseable combos, at least when everyone can ally you can do stuff like genestealer cults or traitor space marines that aren't fully corrupted (still use some chaos equipment, but still largely have codex weapons and formations).

Having looked over the comments, How about this then. I did this one looking from the main detachmenrt on how they would feel with the allies and, so there are diffrences in the chart between who can take what allies and vice versa.

OK, lets go from top to bottom:
BTs have some tensions with DAs. Something with BAs blowing BT cruiser to cover their secretive secrets, but not until BTs reported to the chapter HQ. I think they should be AoC.
BA - Seems OK to me.
Daemons - Seems OK to me.
CSM - I like that you put DAs as AoC to represent the Fallen, and Vanilla SM as BB to represent freshly corrupted chapters. I could suggest SW as AoC, because there clearly are Chaos SW bands and the remnants of Wolf Brothers. ALso SoBs as BBs is a nonsence. There is literally one Sister in a history who turned to Chaos other than by mind control.
DA - aforementioned tensions with DTs, otherwise I'm OK with them.
DE - I think should be DA with all marines, to represent the situations where they manipulate them to beleive their common enemy is more of a threat than "mere xeno pirates"
CFE - Seems OK to me.
GK - DA with DT's is too much -AoC should be OK to represent their mutual superstitions.
IG - I think they could be DA with Eldar, Orks and Tau - there are precedents in fluff when Guard works with them against common enemy or in the case of Orks they used some ork mercenary hired for gunz and teef.
Necrons - as much as they want to work with anyone to achieve their goals, both types of Eldar would never work with their ancient nemesis, SoBs are too upset about Sanctuary 101 and Nids have no way to just communicate with Crons to strike any agreements. There also was evidences that at least some Necron Overlords use armies of humans, mind-controlled by scarabs. So I suggest: DE,CFE: CtA, SoB: DA, IG:BB, Tyranids: CtA
Orks: While green boyz would gladly take any help I could not imagine any way all types of marines, CFEs, SoBs and Tau could work with them except against even bigger threat (DA).
SoB - Seems OK to me.
SM - Seems OK to me.
SW - Seems OK to me.
Tau - Seems OK to me
Tyranids - I could imagine they could use genestealer-infested Eldar, Humans and Orks, and with Eldar and Ork physiology does not allow the level of controll 'stealers hav over humans AoC is justified, so it seems OK

P.S. You can edit the first post to place updated version there.

Dark angels should be come the apocalypse for ALL xenos, no exceptions, allies of convenience for all imperial forces except imperial guard, distrustful allies with all inquisition forces.

 Formosa wrote:
Dark angels should be come the apocalypse for ALL xenos, no exceptions

Why should they? They are nowhere near as xenophobic and fanatical as BT, who still sometimes work with Eldar and Tau against common foes.

Alright lets keep this dicussion going and let me illuminate some of my choices. First Dark angels and BT. I chose for all marines to have loyalty to humanity first and foremost. Minor altercations between chapters aren't enough to warrant allies of convenience and not even the dark angels secretive nature is enough to drop them down. IMHO. The only exception here is the centuries long rivalry between the puppies and the swordies.

I personaly feel that sisters of battle are not as unciorruptable as people like to think. So i made them BB to chaos mostly because sisters deserve some slack and i have seen many really nice chaos sisters armies, People like playing them that way fluf be damned so i left the option open there.

I am glad you noticed that i made dA AOC because the fallen just aren't trustwothy to chaos because their loyalties are so unclear.

As for space wolves, the few that fell to chaos are still headstrong bastards that i don't think would work well with regular chaos warbands. If it a wraband of only fallen space wolves then using the wolfs codex or chaos dex is enough just so chaos doesn't get to many choices 4BB and 4 AOC needs to be tempered somewhat.

Dark Eldar, I'll update all marines to DA when i make the next version.

Black templars refuse to work with all psykers, GK are the only exception and even then they always keep their eyes on them. I feel DA is good enough there.

IG has the Xenos as CtA because unless they are losing outnumbered or have no choice they wouldn't work with them. Its why they ARE allieable if your playing the xenos as main.

As for orks, its chosen from the ork mindset that they will work with prtety much anyone if the other party leaves them alone to bash skulls, and pretty much every marine chapter will just let them do their thing while they focus on what they actually want done before they bash skulls. Orks just think eldar are the anthithesis of everything orky and hold a lot of contempt for them so hey went on the CTA pile

Necrons beeing able o ally everything aslong as they are main is done from the mindeset that aslong as the necrons are out in force, they really don't need to pay attention to what other people do. Nids can't even eat them so they just ignored them to do their own thing. Its more aimed at them using people than outright forging alliances. And even nids can be pointed in the right direction as a distraction.

Mind controll is not really all that reliable, so i disagree in making BB for necrons on that basis alone.

I like these changes.

good work

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Dark angels should be come the apocalypse for ALL xenos, no exceptions

Why should they? They are nowhere near as xenophobic and fanatical as BT, who still sometimes work with Eldar and Tau against common foes.

Actually they are as xenophobic as bt and hate mutants and abhumans even more so, dark angels would never willingly work with any xeno, they even had rules for it back in 3rd, same. With guard, you were not allowed to ally with guard if they included ratlings or ogryns.
When it comes to imp allies, they would be of convenience.because every bit of fluff where da turn up to aid the imp, they pretty much do there own thing, as to inq, well that one is obvious, plus the roll a d6 looking over your shoulder thing kind if fits for inq and da allies

NickOnwezen wrote:
IG has the Xenos as CtA because unless they are losing outnumbered or have no choice they wouldn't work with them. Its why they ARE allieable if your playing the xenos as main.

As I said, there are precedents of Guard working with Xenos as desperate allies, like Ulthwe Blackguard helping Cadian Gate Guard and Necrons helping Shield World Guard during the 13-th Black Crusade, or Tau and Guard working together against Nids both on Tau and Imperium territory, striking cease fire agreements on the sight of space bugs and even working together to ensure their destruction.

Oh, and I recently remembered the episode from Medusa V campaighn, where Necrons tricked Nyds to eat some scarab-mindontrolled guardsmen, and used eaten scarabs to control Nids from inside, so there is precedent of Crons having sort of a way to contact with Nids. Still cant see Eldars working with them.

Also I almost forgot the rivalry between SW and GK. You, know, the one where GKs invaded Fenris due to some crazed Inquisitor orders. I'm pretty sure attempting to destroy their homeworld is enough of a reason for SW to count GKs as DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NickOnwezen wrote:
As for orks, its chosen from the ork mindset that they will work with prtety much anyone if the other party leaves them alone to bash skulls, and pretty much every marine chapter will just let them do their thing while they focus on what they actually want done before they bash skulls. Orks just think eldar are the anthithesis of everything orky and hold a lot of contempt for them so hey went on the CTA pile

As I said, it's not about orks, but more about their allies - most of Marines, Tau, IG and even some (though not all) Crons would not trust greenskins even a little and would expect/prepare backstabs the moment their common enemy is gone, which meets the definition of Desperate Allies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NickOnwezen wrote:
As for space wolves, the few that fell to chaos are still headstrong bastards that i don't think would work well with regular chaos warbands. If it a warband of only fallen space wolves then using the wolfs codex or chaos dex is enough just so chaos doesn't get to many choices 4BB and 4 AOC needs to be tempered somewhat.

Well, Honshou band had one Wolf Brother, and in the "Into Maelstorm" Chaos SW squad had been mentioned as a part of one Red Corsair band - probably the ones who switched the sides when Corsairs boarded and overtake SW strike cruiser. It justify them as at leas AoC as allied detachments for CSMs.

Dark Eldar: I would either make them CTA with Chaos Daemons or CTA with Chaos Daemons that specifically contain daemons of Slaanesh. They aren't Chaos Eldar, Chaos Eldar are very rare and only exist within the warp on Crone Worlds. Don't know how numerous Chaos Eldar are, but it's in the range of a handful to a couple of hundred.

Craftworld Eldar: They'll ally themselves with just about anything to get rid of galaxy-threatening forces like Tyranids and Chaos. After that it's a matter of how likely and to what degree in which case there's a huge difference between each craftworld. I can even see some craftworlds work with the Necrons (but never Alaitoc, 'cause they remember why the Eldar were made in the first place!)

Regarding communication: it's not a requirement for all alliances. It's sometimes sufficient that you shoot in the correct direction and don't get too close.

Mezmerro: if you use such a slim definition of what justifies someone as an AOC then you might as well change all CTA to AOC. And I really mean ALL of them. A few deserters doesn't really justify an alliance marker on the table. Those allies need to be able to recoup from losses in order to justify the marker I should say.

NickOnwezen wrote:
Having looked over the comments, How about this then. I did this one looking from the main detachmenrt on how they would feel with the allies and, so there are diffrences in the chart between who can take what allies and vice versa.

CSM and SoB shouldnt ally. But other than that I like most of the changes!

Chaos Sm and Chaos Demons should have imperial guard as battlebrothers, they both are known for the use of Traitor guard.

Valek, look at the updated version on this page

Small Updates based on commentary once again!

When I saw the chart made CSM AOC with DA I stopped reading.

Sorry mate but Original chart>your chart.

If Chaos Space Marines are the Main Detachment Dark Angels are AoC strictly to Represent the fallen. If Dark Angels are the Main Detachment Chaos space marines are CtA. Please read things before you make baseless comments. that was awnsered only a few posts up.

I have never understood why Eldar are BBs with Tau fluffwise, is there any background material that point to them working together often or having such good relations?

I've always thought that the Eldar were always far too arrogant to consider any of the "lesser" races as allies.

Iranna.

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
why is gaurd allies with chaos they are sworn enemies

For traitor guard

I assume it is because the fluff 'heavily' hints that the Eldar Bioengineerd the Tau Ethereals that control their entire society, had a hand in their accelerated technological advancement and modeld the Tau Caste system on the eldar paths to make their mindsets similair.

 Iranna wrote:
I have never understood why Eldar are BBs with Tau fluffwise, is there any background material that point to them working together often or having such good relations?

I've always thought that the Eldar were always far too arrogant to consider any of the "lesser" races as allies.

I think it may do something with numerous hints about Tau being artificial race, engineered by Eldar as a weapon against chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NickOnwezen wrote:
modeld the Tau Caste system on the eldar paths

Eldar paths are exact opposite of Tau caste system

NickOnwezen wrote:
If Chaos Space Marines are the Main Detachment Dark Angels are AoC strictly to Represent the fallen. If Dark Angels are the Main Detachment Chaos space marines are CtA. Please read things before you make baseless comments. that was awnsered only a few posts up.

Why? the fallen angels have been fallen for so long they would wholly play like CSM. There's nothing in the DA that could help represent them.

Also you spelt answered wrong.

 sing your life wrote:
Why? the fallen angels have been fallen for so long they would wholly play like CSM. There's nothing in the DA that could help represent them.

Go and read the fluff, Now.
1) Most of the Fallen aren't even chaos-worshipers. They often work with CSM to reach their own goals or simply survive the Hunt, often turning on them in the aftermath.
2) When warp-storm consumed the Caliban, Fallen get scattered through space and time, so some of them might experience only a few years or even days since the fall of Caliban.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Why? the fallen angels have been fallen for so long they would wholly play like CSM. There's nothing in the DA that could help represent them.

Go and read the fluff, Now.
1) Most of the Fallen aren't even chaos-worshipers. They often work with CSM to reach their own goals or simply survive the Hunt, often turning on them in the aftermath.
2) When warp-storm consumed the Caliban, Fallen get scattered through space and time, so some of them might experience only a few years or even days since the fall of Caliban.

and they were DA to begin with, so some might fight like the Ravenwing or Deathwing and they might have access to Dark Shrouds or Nelaphin fighters.

Finally actually someone has read the BT and Sisters fluff - unlike the current codex writers..............

 Iranna wrote:
I have never understood why Eldar are BBs with Tau fluffwise, is there any background material that point to them working together often or having such good relations?

I've always thought that the Eldar were always far too arrogant to consider any of the "lesser" races as allies.

Iranna.

There are hints that the Eldar had a hand in the Tau's creation, and Eldrad himself has stated that he's fond of them.