Competitive Blood Angels

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**Voidwraith**

Icculus wrote:
Why can't people explain their answers? You guys just say he is not worth his points and he is not a viable option. Why not? What makes him so bad?

Because on forums, your opponents army is able to fully dedicate itself to killing each of your units each and every turn. It's as if they have as many shooting phases, per turn, as you have units. If you put yourself into that mindset prior to asking any question on a forum, you'll be prepared for the horribly negative answer your guaranteed to receive.

To directly answer your question about Dante...people just can't get over paying more than 125pts for an HQ. What? Other people playing other codecies to it all the time? Yeah, I know, but don't expect anyone giving Blood Angel advice to suggest otherwise.

It is pretty silly Dante doesn't have eternal warrior, though. He's supposed to be one of the oldest Space Marines around, after all. Also, Hit and Run is never talked about, but it's probably his best added ability.

**Icculus**

Paradigm wrote:
I think the reason Dante is not really a viable choice is that due to the 6th ed power weapon changes and the FAQ, he is armed with a power axe, which makes his high initiative useless. This combined with lack of Eternal Warrior means he will either get killed by weight of attacks or (admittedly rare) at-initiative AP2 weapons, or strike at the same time as things like TH or PF and be killed if he fails even 1 4++ save. The ability to bring SG as troops is also less useful now due to eldar having AP2 on everything and the preference for plasma for armies like IG and tau. So in essence, he fulfils neither his role as a combat character nor as a FOC manipulator.

SG can be effective, but are stuck at 5-man squads, have to wait at least a turn before being able to assault, and th fact they are scoring is not really useful due to the small squad size. Most armies can easily kill 5 T4 2+ sv models if they need to. The Death Masks are nice, but most armies are pretty resistant to Ld-indiced effects, as the armies with typically low Ld values often have ways of becoming fearless, such as Mob Rule for orks or Synapse for nids.

Dante's effect on the enemy HQ is useful, but not enough to mitigate his failings, as T4 and no EW is just a recepie for disaster against most CC HQ choices.

Aha. Now this makes sense and I can see what you mean about getting ID by a power fist or thunder hammer. However the idea with this squad is not be a deathstar or a force for taking down the big and nasties. This is a backfield deep strike to take out snipers/heavy support/artillery. So yes, I would agree that he is not a powerhouse.

My main powerhouse in the army is going to be my BT terminator squad and Initiatie blob. These guys with the TH/SS and the chaplain are what is going to cause the real damage and deal with the tougher threats

**Martel732**

Dante is 225 pts and adds what exactly? He's an overpriced captain. And yes, I consider terminators practically unusable at this point with Eldar running around. Starcannons and pseudo rending just make a mockery of 2+ armor.

**Admiral General Aladeen**

dmaz19 wrote:
Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
I would like to preface this by saying I read no comments besides the OP's

Play tau

If you cant buy any models dont bother using what you have competitively because it is the farthest thing from it, you need a LOT of units to round that army out, then there is the fact that unless you are a VERY good general, blood angels are not going to do well regardless, especially vs tau.

If all you did was read the OP, then you would have noticed the part where I said I don't really want to play Tau so much anymore. It's not fun. I like the Blood Angels fluff quite a bit and really like their models. If winning with them is a challenge then so be it, isn't that kind of what the game is about? Anyone I play against in my community that plays Tau upon seeing me field BA would either want to try a different Tau list than usual (which may help) or, as some people have more than 1 army, chose to play me with a different army. I'm mostly doing this because my friend hates playing against Tau (understandably so) and playing against my Blood Angels would be more fun. So the challenge is to make a list that is somewhat competitive with what I have or with some slight additions. While I realize it won't play well against other armies, my friend plays DA with lots of infantry, and almost no tanks, which would make the game hella interesting. I still have yet to play against him, but when I do I will post the results along with some pictures from the battle.

Thanks again for all the support and comments in the thread, I'm glad to see I got your minds buzzing

I explained why you should just play tau, the key word in your post and thread is "COMPETITIVE" The models you have for blood angels are NOT competitive, thus it is impossible for you to play competitively without playing your tau or buying new models, which you stated you can not do. Simple logic would dictate that you either play tau competitively or play blood angels normally and probably lose a lot.

Either way I don't care, blood angels are one of my favorite armies, ive played them going on 10 years now and with a super competitive list and being a good general it is a huge challenge to post any wins in a competitive environment.

**Paradigm**

Aha. Now this makes sense and I can see what you mean about getting ID by a power fist or thunder hammer. However the idea with this squad is not be a deathstar or a force for taking down the big and nasties. This is a backfield deep strike to take out snipers/heavy support/artillery. So yes, I would agree that he is not a powerhouse.

While this type of unit is useful, the artillery/snipers/tanks are usually nothing that an assault squad with a couple of meltas can't deal with for under half the cost? Really, in 6th ed, there is nothing SG can do that ASM or even Vanguad veterans can't do just as well, usually for cheaper. With DOA, accuracy is less of an issue, and for the price of Dante and SG you could get 2 units to fulfil the same role if needed.

**Martel732**

I think SG are better than Vanguards. Vanguards don't even come with jump packs. Horrible.

**warpspider89**

To be fair, SG and Vanguard fill completely different roles.

SG are a mop-up unit and/or backfield defender.

Vanguards are a disruption unit and forward attacker.
*Should always be taken with jump packs and very other little gear (except for the PFist on the Sergeant*

**Paradigm**

Martel732 wrote:
I think SG are better than Vanguards. Vanguards don't even come with jump packs. Horrible.

True, I was just stating they are better for this particular role than SG. On the whole, I agree SG are better, but for neutralising a backfield unit, the PW and 2+ save are usually not needed, and are offset by the Vanguard's ability to charge from DS. As you don't need to load out on too much gear, that counters one of the key weaknesses of the vanguard. Personally, 5 ASM with a melta and meltabombs would be my go-to unit for this kind of thing.

5 SG: 200 points
5 vanguard, JPs, 2x meltabombs: 165 points
5 ASM, meltagun, meltabombs: 115 points

For me, the ASM are the clear winners.

**Kangodo**

They have different uses, so I don't know.
I tried to equip them as close as I could:
SG with Banner
VV with BP, Power Swords and JP's.

SG have 2+, can be taken as troops, are Master-Crafted and fire two shots before Assaulting.
VV on the other hand can assault after the DS.

So SG are better in the long run, but VV are (imo) better 'now' when I need them somewhere.
I really wish SG, DC, ASM and VV's had more 'shared wargear' so I could do counts-as armies

**Andilus Greatsword**

Icculus wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Dante and SG are unfieldable for TAC atm because Eldar own their face so hard.

Would that mean that terminators are unfieldable as well? Also the cool thing about these guys is that they are scoring.

But have no invul saves and therefore get annihilated vs any AP2 or massed rending. At least Terminators can conceivably survive against that.

**Paradigm**

Kangodo wrote:
They have different uses, so I don't know.
I tried to equip them as close as I could:
SG with Banner
VV with BP, Power Swords and JP's.

SG have 2+, can be taken as troops, are Master-Crafted and fire two shots before Assaulting.
VV on the other hand can assault after the DS.

So SG are better in the long run, but VV are (imo) better 'now' when I need them somewhere.
I really wish SG, DC, ASM and VV's had more 'shared wargear' so I could do counts-as armies

I don't thinks equipping VV as SG is the right way to go, as as you say, they have entirely different roles. VV, if I were to take them, I would keep upgrades to a minimum, only JPs and posibly meltabombs, as a backfield disruption unit (although as I said, ASM do this better).

I am struggling to work out where SG fit in these days, as the fact they can be scoring A) requires a 225 point severely overcosted SC and B) is somewhat limited due to only being a 5 man unit. 5 TEQ, even with better mobility, are not hard to kill for most armies. I think they are best at hunting non-melee MEQ and other medium infantry, as ASM kill GEQ just as effectively, which is too much of a situational role to fit in most TAC lists, especially for such a large investment of points.

**Kangodo**

Yeah, it was just to compare.
That's actually another bonus for VV: They can take other stuff!

SG: I really don't mind their points and limitation, that is not their problem.
It's just that AP1/2 is spread all around and they have no chance of really surviving a good shooting.

And for a DS-army you would expect more Heroic Intervention-rules to be tossed around.
If only Dante gave that instead of Hit and Run :O

**Voidwraith**

Martel732 wrote:
Dante is 225 pts and adds what exactly? He's an overpriced captain. And yes, I consider terminators practically unusable at this point with Eldar running around. Starcannons and pseudo rending just make a mockery of 2+ armor.

If you're going to look at him only as an overpriced captain and ignore the Debuff to an enemy IC, unlocking SG as troops, 2+ armor save, potential death mask debuff, non-scattering deep strike for he and his entire unit, and the utility of Hit and Run, then he adds nothing. I won't even add in the +1 wound, as everyone just KNOWS he's going to be doubled out by the first volley of fire coming his way. *rolls eyes*

It's really pretty easy math, though. If you don't feel Sanguinary Guard are worth fielding, you're not going to use Dante. So, this is much less about Dante and what he brings to the table and much more about the viability of Sang Guard. The past handful of replies in this thread have been debating SG, and during those exchanges, no one is even talking about FnP. What gives? Whether by Honor Guard or Sanguinary Priest(s), if you're fielding Sanguinary Guard, you'd better have a FnP provider nearby. I may disagree with a lot of opinions on BA unit choices, but everyone is right when they say BA have a boots on the ground numbers issue. FnP really helps with all that...

**Martel732**

But it doesn't help enough. And paying the priest tax to give 5 SG FnP is not going to save them from, say, starcannons or D-scythes. SG cost too much to be getting just a 5++ FnP save.

As for BA unit choices, there is no correct answer because they are all fatally flawed in the current state of the game.

I don't consider those items you listed off for Dante being worth anywhere near 225 pts. For 100 pts, DA librarians cast two divination spells a turn. Even if they were the same price, I'd probably take the level 2 psyker. But one is 125 pts more? If you like him, take him. But you are contributing to the BA body count defiict by doing so.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Icculus wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Dante and SG are unfieldable for TAC atm because Eldar own their face so hard.

Would that mean that terminators are unfieldable as well? Also the cool thing about these guys is that they are scoring.

But have no invul saves and therefore get annihilated vs any AP2 or massed rending. At least Terminators can conceivably survive against that.

Survive, yes, but I've already seen what Eldar do to Deathwing lists. They don't need to destroy the unit, just cripple it. And they do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the end of the day, VV are still super expensive power armor chumps that the BA can ill afford. There is rarely a single backfield unit that is worth the risk and cost that isn't bubble wrapped by a savvy player.

**Paradigm**

Voidwraith wrote:

If you're going to look at him only as an overpriced captain and ignore the Debuff to an enemy IC, unlocking SG as troops, 2+ armor save, potential death mask debuff, non-scattering deep strike for he and his entire unit, and the utility of Hit and Run, then he adds nothing. I won't even add in the +1 wound, as everyone just KNOWS he's going to be doubled out by the first volley of fire coming his way. *rolls eyes*

I don't think the issue is him being doubled out in shooting so much as the fact in CC most tooled-up HQ's or even PF marine sgts will either kill him before he can hit or at the same time due to lack of EW, and with SG lacking characters, he is pretty much forced to accept challanges if he is with them (or waste his attacks altogether). The debuffs and busts are nice, but for the price of Dante you can take 2 divination libbys with upgrades, or are 5 points off a libby and reclusiarch, both of which I feel bring more to the table.

It's really pretty easy math, though. If you don't feel Sanguinary Guard are worth fielding, you're not going to use Dante. So, this is much less about Dante and what he brings to the table and much more about the viability of Sang Guard. The past handful of replies in this thread have been debating SG, and during those exchanges, no one is even talking about FnP. What gives? Whether by Honor Guard or Sanguinary Priest(s), if you're fielding Sanguinary Guard, you'd better have a FnP provider nearby. I may disagree with a lot of opinions on BA unit choices, but everyone is right when they say BA have a boots on the ground numbers issue. FnP really helps with all that...

FNP does not really help with the SG's survivability in the long run, as many of the weapons that threaten them with AP2 also have strength enough to negate it, and against weight of fire it also doesn't help all that much. Priests have their place, but I would rather give FNP to ASM or even Tacticals, where it is more needed.
Also, the cost of priests increases the already high cost by 25%, and just makes the unit more expensive. I would rather use the priest to support 200 points of ASM than SG, simply because they are more useful to the army as a whole. FNP helps the 'boots on the ground' issue, but also worsens it, with the cost 3 priests getting you the best part of another ASM or Tac squad.

**warpspider89**

Paradigm wrote:

FNP does not really help with the SG's survivability in the long run, as many of the weapons that threaten them with AP2 also have strength enough to negate it,

I count Lascannons, Bright/Dark Lances, proper Railguns, Melta, and Pulse Lasers... Since when is that "many"?

**Martel732**

I don't worry about being doubled out nearly as much as weight of fire.

**Paradigm**

warpspider89 wrote:
Paradigm wrote:

FNP does not really help with the SG's survivability in the long run, as many of the weapons that threaten them with AP2 also have strength enough to negate it,

I count Lascannons, Bright/Dark Lances, proper Railguns, Melta, and Pulse Lasers... Since when is that "many"?

Ok fair enough, I thought there were more. Also things like demolisher cannons, medusas, and any MEQ using PF/TH ect.

The real problem is that, for a 5-man squad, a 5+ save is not really enough insurance in the face of mass plasma fire or eldar pseudo-rending and the like, and with the squads capping at 5 men, only 2-3 have to die to cripple the squads. FNP is just better used elsewhere, in my opinion.

**warpspider89**

As long as a single model survives it can score!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't forget the ever-awesome benefit of 5+ cover from Shield of Sanguinius.

These are BA. They should be maxing aura benefits at every turn if possible.

**Paradigm**

warpspider89 wrote:
As long as a single model survives it can score!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't forget the ever-awesome benefit of 5+ cover from Shield of Sanguinius.

These are BA. They should be maxing aura benefits at every turn if possible.

True, I just prefer to use ASM for scoring, SG require Dante for scoring, and are better purely as an assaul unit in my opinion. SOS is useful, but again, I would rather have it protecting more versatile and ultimately more useful models.

**Martel732**

So now we talking about assigning a libby to the SG? SoS is best used where it can hit multiple squads.

**warpspider89**

Should SG not be near other squads? Why are hypothetical people sending them out in isolation?

**Martel732**

I thought people intended to use them with Dante and deep strike or something. I don't know. Dante and SG are just very dubious in my estimation.

**Paradigm**

warpspider89 wrote:
Should SG not be near other squads? Why are hypothetical people sending them out in isolation?

Not neccessarily in isolation, but if I have a choice between SOS hitting 2 squads of ASM or ASM and SG, I'd rather the former. When I do run a Libby with the SG, I tend to use divination to make sure their atttacks hit with the most possible value.

On a side note, what are people's thoughts on Death Company in 6th ed? I think the new version of Rage helps out, but how do people run them? With JPs, in a transport, or footslogging, and with what weapons, if any?

**Icculus**

warpspider89 wrote:
Should SG not be near other squads? Why are hypothetical people sending them out in isolation?

Well the OP was planning on a competitive build. I was planning on using Dante and SG as an allied attachment.

I suppose for the points I could just bring in another terminator squad for the BTs or even several 10man assault squads. Although, bringing in the SG and Dante will definitely draw the AP2 firepower away from my BT termies.

**Paradigm**

Icculus wrote:

Well the OP was planning on a competitive build. I was planning on using Dante and SG as an allied attachment.

I suppose for the points I could just bring in another terminator squad for the BTs or even several 10man assault squads. Although, bringing in the SG and Dante will definitely draw the AP2 firepower away from my BT termies.

This is true, but that is a really expensive distraction! I would really suggest some ASM for more general purpose use, they are more durable as far as scoring is concerned. Something like this comes to about the same points as Dante+SG

Reclusiarch, jump pack 155
10 ASM, Power Fist, 2x meltagun 135

This still leaves you with 35 points to spare for an upgrade to the reclusiarch or something for the BT. Will kill stuff on the charge, as well as providing 10 scoring troops and can combat squad.

**Icculus**

Paradigm wrote:
Icculus wrote:

Well the OP was planning on a competitive build. I was planning on using Dante and SG as an allied attachment.

I suppose for the points I could just bring in another terminator squad for the BTs or even several 10man assault squads. Although, bringing in the SG and Dante will definitely draw the AP2 firepower away from my BT termies.

This is true, but that is a really expensive distraction! I would really suggest some ASM for more general purpose use, they are more durable as far as scoring is concerned. Something like this comes to about the same points as Dante+SG

Reclusiarch, jump pack 155
10 ASM, Power Fist, 2x meltagun 135

This still leaves you with 35 points to spare for an upgrade to the reclusiarch or something for the BT. Will kill stuff on the charge, as well as providing 10 scoring troops and can combat squad.

ASM arent scoring units for BT though. So maybe just getting another 10-man squad in a drop pod would work just as well, haha.

**Martel732**

DC have issues with mobilization. All their mobilization methods have flaws that are hard to overcome in 6th.

**warpspider89**

DC are best if you run them cheap and with Bolters. 20 points for a model that can fire two S4 attacks and then charge for four S5 attacks hitting on a 3+ (WS5) with built in FNP is pretty decent. Ten strong is just fine and a fair price tag.

Bring some metal boxes to shield them and footslog them up to midfield. Hold there and play the area control game. No need to babysit them.

That way they work as a solid unit that will either draw plenty of enemy firepower off your units as they move into position, which is fine since they can't score anyways, or, because they are less points & threatening without a JP, will be ignored until they are in place to deny objectives and generally muck up the enemies plans.

Like most marine units they are scale tippers not game winners.

*they do synergize with LRs either in them or behind them*

**Martel732**

I suppose that's okay. Footslogging means you are unlikely to ever pull off an assault against a good opponent. They are still more expensive than tactical marines and don't score. I'll have to try this, but I don't see how this can really help against Tau or Eldar. They'll just shoot the DC if they become an issue after they shoot the units they really care about.