Competitive Blood Angels

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**Kangodo**

@Warpspider89:
I will just go through it point for point and explain the lack of enjoyment I have with Blood Angels.
The only reason I am starting to enjoy them again is probably because I haven't played them for 4 months and I think I suppressed the memories

You are right, they lack the bodies and the firepower to play it shooty.
The problem is, and this will come back many times in this post, that shooting exist.
The enemies shoot at us and they have killed enough to stop them from being a real threat in CC.

Deep Strike:
ASM are okay, but they are still just MEQ's.
SG die too fast and are way too overpriced for the punch and durability they give in the current meta.
DC are at least 35 points each if you want to DS with them, they are very very expensive.
DC make up for those points by having 5 attacks on the charge. But they are still non-scoring MEQ's and have only 3 attacks when you charge into them.
And sometimes they are even too strong: You DS a 200pnt squad somewhere, a few get shot, you charge and a few die and you end up killing the enemy so they can unleash their fire again.
VV are expensive, not scoring and cannot carry IC's.

Therefore, Blood Angels should seek options to close the gap.

By doing what? With the current weapon that most Xenos-armies field, you will DS and they kill enough models to stop them from being a threat.
All that we are left with is subpar firepower.

The current good lists that BA field are 40-ASM with Predators, not really the iconic army that got me playing them.

Edit: Martel, did you see the Raven Guard-rumours?
Tell me, on a scale from 1 to 10.. How jealous are you?

**warpspider89**

@Kangodo

Honestly, any deep-strike maneuver has to be done in a wolf-pack style.

ASM need to be loaded up to the MAX with flamers to put out as many wounds as possible when they show up. Maybe give a small squad or two some melta to pop tanks so that a squad deep striking beside them, one that has flamers, can roast the gooey insides that come pouring out.

SG should probably be deepstriking into friendly territory or shielded behind the bubble of the other deepstrikers to GUARD those. Fancy that... Sanguinary GUARDS GUARDING things more strategically valuable units

DC are a little too expensive to DS. Keep them cheap and sleazy. If they are to be DSed, then do it from Drop Pods as an initial disruption/movement blocking maneuver to control the flow of battle.

VV should be kept cheap, since they are sure to die, and have them tie up that one valuable critical thing for a turn or two. Give them a little melta goodness if you think that that critical thing will be in some sort of metal box. Keep them under 200 points.

None of these squads should exceed 250 points. It would eat up too much of a force's resources.

**Martel732**

Listen to what you are typing. Keep the VV under 200? So somehow its okay to throw away 175 pts? BA can't afford suicide units. There aren't enough BA on any given table to go on that mission. What about lists with distributed firepower and no good VV targets?

The return fire against your proposed strike is potentially game ending. All I'd need is a few plasma hits or a two battle cannon hits, etc to wreck your clumped ASM. Or a helldrake.

Haven't seen raven-guard rumors yet.

**warpspider89**

It isn't throwing them away. It is using them effectively. Of course, they'll probably die, but it is fine for models and units to get killed if they do the job necessary to win you the game.

Honestly, I would be surprised if there was a single army list that didn't have at least one unit that you wanted to tie up - and kill, ideally. Can you provide an example of a list that has absolutely nothing that you would want to tie up - particularly around 2k points.

Battle cannon shots only spread out 2.5 inches from the center of the blast. If you're units are that close to each other then you are positioning WAY too close for the maneuver. Move the units a little further apart.

Besides, your VV would be able to take down one of those battle tanks and the ASM with meltas should be dropping the others. They should be risking the shot scattering into themselves if you are deep striking well.

**Martel732**

If you deep strike and shoot your weapons, you can't get any separation at all. You have to deep strike them base to base. That's why drop pods are much better than generic deep strike: they allow a disembark move.

You can try what you propose, but VV have never been an issue for me, nor has deep striking marines. They do some damage and then I wreck their list piecemeal.

**warpspider89**

I said UNITS not models.

Also what is this piecemeal stuff? Everything is coming turn 2 basically. You get to reroll failed attempts after all.

**Martel732**

Well, that's one turn guaranteed, potentially two, depending on who went first that the opponent can tee off on your force that is forced to start on the board.

If your opponent has a way to subtract from the reserve roll, you may not be coming in turn 2.

Oh, so you think the firepower of an ASM squad is worth leaving them in deep strike formation? They only need to hit one unit with a battle cannon or group of plasma cannons. Or hell heavy flamers. The amount of ways this goes bad is legion.

**Voidwraith**

Arriving piece-meal? Decent of Angels allows a re-roll to reserves for such units, so there's a much greater chance your units are all arriving turn 2.

There really does just seem to be a disagreement of beliefs here. One camp is pro-bodies and the other is ok with having some elite units mixed in with the generic bodies. The only difference is no one from the pro-elite camp is telling the pro-bodies camp that their method is stupid.

On a related note...Stormravens are now the strength of the BA codex? I thought Martel absolutely hated Stormravens. And hey, the guy talking about the results from the tourney also said Mephiston was a total stud and rocked face all day. I thought he was overpriced and hella-dumb to field? *rolls eyes*

Maybe running a 200pt+ model/unit isn't the end of the world after all.

**Martel732**

I do hate them. And still hate them for their horrid inefficiency compared to helldrakes and Vendettas. I still think its pricetag sucks. But the proof is in the pudding. The guy took four and did very well. I have never considered spamming them like that, mostly because I don't own the models.

They shut down helldrakes immediately. They can even take out the Vendetta pay load of an IG aircav list I'd wager.

I have no idea what that list does against hordes, but it seems to be legit in the tournament meta. And it lost to a Necron air list and some kind of Eldar thing. Probably got all the troops vaporized before the Stormravens could do enough damage.

Sigh. Arriving on turn 2 in many situations is simply not good enough, especially if you happened to go second. That's two turns of being pounded with no reserves. I personally have crippled DE, BA, GK, C:SM, and CSM lists by turn 2. Imagine what a good codex could do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking about it, an IG air cav list might still have enough ground firepower to kill the scoring units of that list. I can't imagine that it likes SW drop pods, either. But I bet not many are using SW drop pods in tournaments.

**anonymou5**

There were actually a decent number of SW Drop Pod lists there, as a lot of teams were using them as their anti Tau build. Andrew was convinced he could take one, and he and I argued for a while. His plan was to spread out his squads in terrain, behind the Aegis, and using his 2+ saves to tank. In his words "once the Ravens come out the game is over" I remain unconvinced.

Horde is a weakness, for sure. That said, there are not a lot of horde Armies in tournaments. Not really.

Edit: he took out the Quality Control IG/Wolves list that was rocking 3 Vendettas. Which was surprising. QC's entire team were super good, finished 3rd.

**Martel732**

4 Stormravens will over power the 3 Vendettas. The SW/IG guy needed to win on the ground.

I agree that hardcore SW drop pod would be a major problem. I've done this to GK players: once their Stormravens come out, I'm already in HTH combat with them, and the game is indeed over. If grey hunters get this list in HTH, its over I think.

**TheLionOfTheForest**

I've been following this thread... I am more than a little fed up with our outdated codex. The new rules (rumored) for space marines make me want to curl up in a fetal position and cry. Ok... Moving on... I am in the more bodies camp. At the beginning of 6th (pre Tau, Eldar update) I had great success with a spammy / shooty list:

Terminator Lib with SS and force axe.
1 sang priest plain
10 termies with 2 x cyclone, 2 x chain fists
2 x 5 man devs with 4 ML each
2 x 5 man assault with 2 hand flamers and one flamer each
10 man Tac with PC and PG (aegis sitters, with priests and Devs)
Death co (8, bolters, 1 fist) in drop pod
Aegis with quad gun

I forget what I rounded the list out with.

Basically I flooded the field with low priority targets. 12 ML shots a turn were effective. The tacs held the aegis and a home point, and also (combat squaded) defended the devs from assault, all with the priest and Aegis with quad gun.

The list worked fairly well, it was nothing amazing and unfortunately a little dull to play. The BA codex is full of shiny trap units, units that exemplify the flavor of BA. When you take these units (which are over priced) it hamstrings your ability to compete against the newer codecies, I mean have you seen the points reductions on ALL the codex:SM units.

I went through this experience in 4th edition. When BA were potentially worse than they are currently. I bought into an IG army. Havin other armies is the only reason I still play 40k. BA were my first army (1994), my first true love. I have been tying to find a way to use them as allies, but it's just hard to justify.

The disparity in balancing between codexes almost makes me wish that there was a handicap rating on codecies. Tau and eldar are Easy mode just brin your Red staples "that was easy" button, press it and you win. BA and BT are probably the most severely handicapped codexes at the moment. If your winning with BA I would attribute it to having better command than your opponent and/or luck.

Once the new SM codex drops I will be playing "red" marines untill we get our new book.

**Eldercaveman**

See at the moment the new space marine codec isn't going to work for me, as the only troops I own are two 5 man scout units, death company and about 60 assault Marines.

**Kangodo**

Why wouldn't that work?
If you take Shadow Captain Korvydae your only problem will be that you cannot field the DC and 10 ASM.
Wait.. Scrap that.. Field them as Vanguard Veterans who are better, cheaper and stronger than DC-troops.

Korvy has the added bonus of being awesome, he's 5 points cheaper than a BA-Captain with the same gear and he has Artificer Armour with Hit and Run.
His only downside is that you lose DoA, Red Thirst (hahahaha), jump-priests and well, that's it.
There is a silver lining behind that sad cloud: You need Scouts, so why not infiltrate them and take a beacon to counter the loss of the "1D6 scatter"?
I'm not even going to pretend like I care about losing Red Thirst.
And priests are nice, but an army-wide Stealth almost makes up for that; now I can use those points on more tactical marines!

Bam! Instant-Raven Guard.
You only need to add some water; I would advice TheLionOfTheForest's tears.
Otherwise I could mail you some of mine.

**DarthDiggler**

warpspider89 wrote:
"Most deep striking schemes are not good anyway, because in a tactical game, I find reserves to be a negative, not a positive." That is an opinion Martel and it is one presented without explanation.

I find the notion of ignoring a tactical option, without valid explanation, in a tactical game rather unusual, especially for an army that is currently at a disadvantage when playing the usual "bodies on the field firing" game that dominates the current meta. After all, BA lack serious firepower at range and they lack the bodies to sustain casualties in shooting exchanges.

The main argument against reserves/deep striking is that it reduces the amount of outgoing firepower over the limited number of turns available because models that are not on the field cannot shoot. However...

"Deep striking schemes" are probably the best thing that BA having going on for them because it mitigates one of their main problems: lack of bodies & lack firepower at range.

If a body is not on the ground, then it cannot be shot. Bodies in reserve are not on the ground, therefore they cannot be shot. It reduces casualties early game.

If Blood Angels lack competitive long-range firepower and the ability to sustain long-ranged fire fights, then Blood Angels should avoid fighting against the enemy at range. This is true. Their ranged options are lacking. Therefore, Blood Angels should seek options to close the gap.

Blood Angels can take much larger number of weapons that are most effective at close range - primarily flamer-type weapons and melta-type weapons. The short range character of these weapons supports the notion that Blood Angels need to close the gap between them and their enemies if they want to be effective.

Further, armies should be played in such a way that takes full advantage of their strengths. If an army has a strength that isn't being utilized, then the player of that army should adapt to take advantage of that strength. Blood Angels are better at Deep Striking than most armies due to Descent of the Angels. Deep Striking is a strength and, from the sounds of it, it isn't being utilized. Therefore, players should adapt to take advantage of that strength.

.

+1.

**Martel732**

Deep striking is neither an advantage nor a strength though. Please try it against me. It will be a nice break from Eldar and Tau routs.

**DarthDiggler**

Martel732 wrote:
Voidwraith wrote:
Kangodo wrote:
But we are Deep Striking them That's what you do with 2+ models and JP's!

Of course you are, but with D6 scatter, you deep strike whatever units you want first, THEN use Dante's non-scattering deep strike to help home the priest (of Honor guard priest if Dante deep strikes in with them) to the best possible location. See....Dante's utility is useful if you want it to be.

It's useful, but you pay way too many points to field it. *Every* unit is useful, but it has to undergo a cost/benefit analysis to determine if its *good*. Dante is not good for his points. Most deep striking schemes are not good anyway, because in a tactical game, I find reserves to a negative, not a positive.

Basically this is why you can't get BA to work. You play to win the game, not have the prettiest army on paper.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Deep striking is neither an advantage nor a strength though. Please try it against me. It will be a nice break from Eldar and Tau routs.

Absolutely false. As for proof you can look to Reece Robins battle reports. He deep strikes unit all the time, especially warp spiders who do not have any of the benefits of BA deep strikers.

**Martel732**

If you say so. How exactly is deep striking going to help the BA?

I'm thinking it's because I don't own 4 Stormravens. Or so it would seem.

It's really hard to win the game when you are running out of units by turn 3-4.

Warp Spiders have a few rules that BA don't though. Like Battle Focus? LOL And no BA unit save Sternguard have the firepower of Warp Spiders. There's a big, big difference between deep striking warp spiders and deep striking ASM.

Please tell me the specifics of how this is not going to get your BA massacred, especially given 6th edition deployment rules. BA players have tried this against me in 5th and 6th and all lost. Usually horribly.

**DarthDiggler**

Martel732 wrote:
If you say so. How exactly is deep striking going to help the BA? I'm thinking it's because I don't own 4 Stormravens. Or so it would seem.

It's really hard to win the game when you are running out of units by turn 3-4.

Deep striking help the BA by getting scoring units into the enemy backfield and attacking, with precision, key enemy elements. Does you whole army need to deep strike? No. Does your whole army need to be Stormravens? No. Will you deep strike into the middle of 3 Riptides with interceptor? No.

For all your concern about Eldar and Tau the BA have two very potent weapons against those armies. Lots of cheap armor 13 and Fear the Darkness. Tau have an especially rough time against that power. Riptides are leadership 9 and they are not fearless. They go away very fast. BA can, if they want, put out 5 fear the darkness spells a turn. Against a fearless army, switch those powers for book powers if needed.

Is it an autowin? No. Is it a chance? Yes. A chance and a positive attitude will lead to more victories than defeats.

As to warp spiders, battle focus is mitigated by the single d6 scatter the warp spiders do not get that the BA do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deep striking warp spiders will target a different set of units than deep strike ASM. Don't compare them that way. I can combat squad my ASM on deep strike and attack two different targets. Spiders can not. ASM can melta a tank to oblivion, like Land Raiders, spiders can not.

I think you have a problem in wanting the ASM to do everything the other codex deep strikers do. They don't and they shouldn't. ASM targets a different than spider targets.

**Eldercaveman**

Kangodo wrote:
Why wouldn't that work?
If you take Shadow Captain Korvydae your only problem will be that you cannot field the DC and 10 ASM.
Wait.. Scrap that.. Field them as Vanguard Veterans who are better, cheaper and stronger than DC-troops.

Korvy has the added bonus of being awesome, he's 5 points cheaper than a BA-Captain with the same gear and he has Artificer Armour with Hit and Run.
His only downside is that you lose DoA, Red Thirst (hahahaha), jump-priests and well, that's it.
There is a silver lining behind that sad cloud: You need Scouts, so why not infiltrate them and take a beacon to counter the loss of the "1D6 scatter"?
I'm not even going to pretend like I care about losing Red Thirst.
And priests are nice, but an army-wide Stealth almost makes up for that; now I can use those points on more tactical marines!

Bam! Instant-Raven Guard.
You only need to add some water; I would advice TheLionOfTheForest's tears.
Otherwise I could mail you some of mine.

I did have a look into some of thes characters a while back, what book is korvydae in again, and do we think his rules will be changing anytime soon? I may have to look into this. Since my blood angels are a custom successor chapter anyway, it's easy enough for me to justify a book change.

**Kangodo**

He's in IA8
IA9 has a comparable model called Elam Courbray (I believe he is an ultramarine) that makes them scoring, but not troops.

At the moment I am probably going to try:
Korvydae
Captain on bike (Or Librarian if that works)
1 Group of bikers = scoring
2 or 3x ASM = scoring
1 or 2 tactical marines = scoring
1 Scout Squad = scoring

Fill up the rest with some random pretty models, maybe even a command squad so I have a priest and a use for my DC/SG.

**wuestenfux**

How about an alpha strike with Dante and Mordrak (GK allies)? Two units able to take on two different targets. Add a teleporting DK into the mix and you'll have a force to reckon with. Thoughts?

**Eldercaveman**

Kangodo wrote:
He's in IA8
IA9 has a comparable model called Elam Courbray (I believe he is an ultramarine) that makes them scoring, but not troops.

At the moment I am probably going to try:
Korvydae
Captain on bike (Or Librarian if that works)
1 Group of bikers = scoring
2 or 3x ASM = scoring
1 or 2 tactical marines = scoring
1 Scout Squad = scoring

Fill up the rest with some random pretty models, maybe even a command squad so I have a priest and a use for my DC/SG.

Just read his rules, and this could be the answer to my Blood Angels woes for now. I'm thinking of converting my own Korvydae with the Lord Exectioner model and Death Co. Thunder Hammer. You could even add in some BA Allies, of a Reclus and Death co. with Jump Packs, giving Death Company his hit and run if he leads them, which will get around the problem of death company being charged and tied down.

**Kangodo**

Yeah, I was thinking of that too..
But almost every single conversion would be more expensive than buying him from FW.
On the other hand the lack of Raven-symbols means he fits my army better and that is worth a few euro's.

Thank you for the tip!

**Eldercaveman**

Kangodo wrote:
Yeah, I was thinking of that too..
But almost every single conversion would be more expensive than buying him from FW.
On the other hand the lack of Raven-symbols means he fits my army better and that is worth a few euro's.

Thank you for the tip!

For me it's not, cost me £15 for either model, and I already have the parts for the conversion, either that or convert an Astorath into him.

**hazal**

Converting Astorath would be pretty badass, easy too.

**Illumini**

In addition to the codex:stormraven list, BA should be able to field a pretty decent drop pod army.

Honor guard can load up with 4x special weapons
Access to sternguard, which are still pretty good, access to heavy flamers is very nice with the rise of xenos, special ammo is nice vs iron-arm MC's, and of course, they hit like a brick when they land
Assault marines are fairly cheap and can pack a decent punch on the drop with a dual-wielding sarge
Support it with stormravens, an AV13 wall of vindicators/baals, a small horde of attack bikes or your favorite allies
Pod armies are also good at grabbing first blood, linebreaker and for grabbing a relic quickly.

Example 1750 - without stormravens
Librarian (100)
5 Honor guard, 4x plasma, pod (210)
5 Sternguard, 2x heavy flamer, 3x combi-flamer, pod (195)
5 Sternguard, 2x heavy flamer, 3x combi-flamer, pod (195)
5 Sternguard, 2x plasmagun, 3x combi-plasma, pod (195)
5 Assault Marines, melta, 2x infernus pistol, pod (140)
5 Assault Marines, melta, 2x infernus pistol, pod (140)
5 Assault Marines, flamer, pod (105)
3x Multimelta AB (150)
3x Multimelta AB (150)
3x Multimelta AB (150)
1750pts

**TheLionOfTheForest**

I'm just reading some more of the latest rumor roundups. If they are true, we are even more

than we are currently.
I am a very sad panda.

**tomjoad**

I'm actually feeling very good about the latest rumors. I have to finish painting my tac marines, but everything gives me great hope for victories in the near future!

**TheLionOfTheForest**

Don't get me wrong, I love the new changes for space marines. I am just sad that we are probably 6+ months out before we get ours.