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As long as the new book doesn't have a "termies as troops" option, and the white scars biker list doesn't really step on the ravenwing toes, they can have all the new toys they want.

I don't want the new stuff to transfer over...at least, not until SW and BA get a 6th book. GK are unique enough that it'd be a shame to just copy something over.

Otherwise I'm not seeing the reasons for whining. So BA and DA don't get grav guns? The former have infernus pistols, the latter get three times the plasma for cheap. So you don't get Ironclad Dreadnoughts? Big deal, Furiosos and Deathwing Dreads exist. It's the same old story, different books get different toys.

 Super Ready wrote:
I don't want the new stuff to transfer over...at least, not until SW and BA get a 6th book. GK are unique enough that it'd be a shame to just copy something over.

Otherwise I'm not seeing the reasons for whining. So BA and DA don't get grav guns? The former have infernus pistols, the latter get three times the plasma for cheap. So you don't get Ironclad Dreadnoughts? Big deal, Furiosos and Deathwing Dreads exist. It's the same old story, different books get different toys.

Deathwing dreads are standard dreads, not sure why you think they are different. It's not like they actually added the Mortis Dreadnought to the actual book.

Also the plasma is the same cost as in any Imperial book, so no it's not for cheap

I don't understand why they don't have better Company Veterans though.

Well really White Scars should do the whole bike thing better then DA, given that almost the entirety of their chapter are bikers. I do see getting terminators as troops but only if you take a special character of some type.

I am just scared shitless that the Raven Guard might get ASM as troop-choices after reading some of their fluff.

 WarAngel wrote:
If this is true the GW's us again. They don't even take us out for dinner first. I may have to resort to using vanilla marines as allies or use them as a primary with my DA as allies.

blood angels was even fairly new, the codex is far from ancient. kind of scary how fast, hard and how badly they that book.

the randomly added new stuff is pretty dumb and nonsensical how no one else gets any.

Getting screwed by the next marine book is pretty much a way of life for DA players. At this point, I'm not even surprised any more.

I just don't understand why the DA have missed out on so much. Yes we have Termies and Bikers as troops but really the only option there is to do the Ravenwing Army. Pure Deathwing just isn't going to cut it even in a friendly game most of the time. All it takes is your opponent to bring a flyer and some good units to kite the Terminators around. Like I have mentioned before...the really only good tactic that came out of the book were the Black Knights! Everyone keeps saying we have unique units...while this is a true statement, most of our unique units weren't given the care that most of the other new Codex have received so far. Except for the unlucky CSM LOL....we are both in the same boat! All it would take is a few FAQ corrections to those units and then DA and CSM could be back to being a balanced fun army to play

Troops: Tacs and Scouts....nothing really changed....and nothing bad or good came out of them besides for about 6 months of being cheaper units.

Elites:
Veterans: I don't think GW really knew what they wanted out of them...except that they didn't want them to be Sternguard or Vanguard so...a mix????
DWT: Best choice for being Elites Choice or they can be taken as troops (if you bring Belial).
DWK: Down right useless (for the most part)....Should have been maybe 2W or T5/6. Lets face it....if you don't spend an absence amount of points to bring a LR just so they can do something the turn they come out...come on GW, throw us a bone here! Deep Striking is completely out of the question :/
Dreadnought: Alright choice but nothing really special outta this guy as all other Chapters pretty much get him too.

Dedicated Transport: No change that most likely will be transferred to the rest of the Chapter's.

Fast Attack: Arguably our best section in the book for a couple of reasons.
RAS: Great point cost and unique to the Ravenwing as they can be taken as troops (if you bring Sammael).
RSS: Cool....we can get a squadron of LS.
RBK: The best unit in the Codex...hands down. Unique to DA!
Darkshroud: Ok unit....great for a first blood give away as well :/ Unique to DA.
Assault Squad: Does anyone use these???
Jetfighter: Best outta the two flyers but lacks the punch to take down flyers.....which is the job of the Nephilim!
Dark Talon: Great idea but poor execution. :( Unique to DA.

Heavy Support:
Devastators: Great until every Chapter has a decrease in points value.
Predator: No change.
Whirlwind: Dirt cheap...until well, the marines come out.
Vindicator: No change.
Land Raiders: No change.
Land Speeder Vengeance: Again, really cool concept but should have been AV 12/12/10 and something different with the Plasma Battery. For the points cost....lacks the punch and the armor to survive.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Well really White Scars should do the whole bike thing better then DA, given that almost the entirety of their chapter are bikers. I do see getting terminators as troops but only if you take a special character of some type.

I'm fine with them being on the same power level, as long as they are executed differently. They should not be better, just like termies should not be troops. If you do both of those, then at that point we might as well just roll up every Imperial Marine dex into C:SM like BT and call it a day. Personally I'm for that option anyway, but if GW isn't going to do it, don't make another codex completely redundant.

I do sympathise with the DA players because it looks like they are going to get the short straw out of the new marine dexs yet again, but in my opinion there should be different units in the standard marine codex that others done have access to. In 5th edition the SM codex just had all its units repeated throughout all the other marine codexs, only they tacked on all these extra rules and special units for the other codexs. Standard Marine Dex should have its own toys and things to make it unique rather than be the bland base for other more exciting books.

I don't expect to have access to Deathwing, ravenwing, Sang Guard, death company, Wolfguard, Thunderwolves and all these other unique units. So in turn there should be units within the Standard Codex that other SM armies should not have access to.

Vanilla Marines *DO* have units that other Codexes don't have access to. Namely, the Ironclad, Thunderfire Cannon, Legion of the Damned, Master of the Forge and the conversion beamer that comes with him. Oh, and the Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment doesn't turn up elsewhere in Marine books either.

Deathwing dreads are standard dreads, not sure why you think they are different. It's not like they actually added the Mortis Dreadnought to the actual book.

They're not AS different as Furiosos or Mortises, sure, and I'll admit they're not AS unique or useful, but Deathwing Dreadnoughts do exist. Have another look at the "Deathwing Vehicle" rule in the Codex.

I'll agree on plasma being the same cost having had another look, though. As for better Veterans, well, they sort of *do* have them - they're called Deathwing. What I don't understand is how they still don't have access to special ammo.

 Super Ready wrote:
Vanilla Marines *DO* have units that other Codexes don't have access to. Namely, the Ironclad, Thunderfire Cannon, Legion of the Damned, Master of the Forge and the conversion beamer that comes with him. Oh, and the Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment doesn't turn up elsewhere in Marine books either.

Deathwing dreads are standard dreads, not sure why you think they are different. It's not like they actually added the Mortis Dreadnought to the actual book.

They're not AS different as Furiosos or Mortises, sure, and I'll admit they're not AS unique or useful, but Deathwing Dreadnoughts do exist. Have another look at the "Deathwing Vehicle" rule in the Codex.

I'll agree on plasma being the same cost having had another look, though. As for better Veterans, well, they sort of *do* have them - they're called Deathwing. What I don't understand is how they still don't have access to special ammo.

So deathwing dreads get one rule, and that somewhat makes them different. It's not to the level of Ironclads or Furiso though. If they had given them mortis level dreads with AA though..Ah missed opportunities.

And I'm talking about Company Veterans, which are still a thing, they are better then chosen, but still worse then the other company veterans.

Well what you really get from a chapter specific codex is the special rules and unique chapter only units, like Rune Priests or Furiosos. What the SM codex is supposed to be is every other chapter of SM. So why can't there be another chapter who uses Terminators as troops, or a chapter who feilds nothing but bikes, or a chapter that has 4 assult squads in a company instead of 2? There are over a thousand chapters, there is going to be some similarities.

First of all: I don't mind the vanilla codex having options to make it unique. I don't mind the DA not getting Grav weapons, or Centurions.

It DOES bother me, that they are getting an AA tank that should have been on the DA codex. I don't know. I can still hope that there will be a FAQ allowing us to take it, but that seems like a weak way to do it.

Deathwing don't get special ammo because it doesn't work in a Stormbolter.

Well I was addressing the assembly as a whole, not any specific person, thats what PM is for.

I agree to a point. As I am not too familiar with DA I cannot address whether or not they should get AA. Does it meet with their fluff? My BA never got TFC but I didn't expect them to as it is a siege weapon and BA is not a siege army. Will we get the new AA tanks in our next codex? Maybe, given that AA is a defensive tool and BA is not really a static defense type army, instead we have Stormravens for air superiority, however we probably will just so GW can sell more tanks to us.

AA being a defensive tool is not relevant to the discussion.

Space Marines, period, are "not a static defense type army".
You can tell that by the fact that their AA is predominantly mounted upon fast moving vehicles and not static platforms.

With that said:
The Hunter and Stalker really should have been in the Dark Angels book as well as this book. There is absolutely no justifiable reason why these two vehicles would be only available to C: SM and not Dark Angels.

Just watch though. Hunter/Stalker will be in BA/SW when those books get redone.

It is perfectly relevent as there are SM who speciallize in defensive tactics. Also I highly doubt that either of the AA tanks will be fast, which means to be the most effective they will have to be static. Just because it has wheels doesn't mean its not static.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
It is perfectly relevent as there are SM who speciallize in defensive tactics. Also I highly doubt that either of the AA tanks will be fast, which means to be the most effective they will have to be static. Just because it has wheels doesn't mean its not static.

You are confusing the "fast vehicle" rules with "this is a fast vehicle chassis".
In the grand scheme of things, the Hunter/Stalker vehicles are highly mobile. They are likely designed to keep up with the fast moving breakthroughs that the Astartes do utilize with their armored formations.
And the vehicles having wheels, along with engines, by definition mean that they are not static.

And the Imperial Fists specialization is "siege warfare", not "defensive tactics". They can lay siege to fortifications just as well as they can hold them, with the same being true with the Iron Warriors.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I dont play SM, nor do I hope to play them, but I am hoping they are horribly broken. Because, in the eternal words of Matt Ward:
"It would be a shame if they weren't"

Even though he didn't write this Codex at all.

 OminusMarine wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I dont play SM, nor do I hope to play them, but I am hoping they are horribly broken. Because, in the eternal words of Matt Ward:
"It would be a shame if they weren't"

Even though he didn't write this Codex at all.

I think it was meant to be a joke.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 OminusMarine wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I dont play SM, nor do I hope to play them, but I am hoping they are horribly broken. Because, in the eternal words of Matt Ward:
"It would be a shame if they weren't"

Even though he didn't write this Codex at all.

I think it was meant to be a joke.

It might have been but there are plenty of people who see a Marine book and automatically assume that Ward wrote it.

In this case though it was Cruddace.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
It is perfectly relevent as there are SM who speciallize in defensive tactics. Also I highly doubt that either of the AA tanks will be fast, which means to be the most effective they will have to be static. Just because it has wheels doesn't mean its not static.

You are confusing the "fast vehicle" rules with "this is a fast vehicle chassis".
In the grand scheme of things, the Hunter/Stalker vehicles are highly mobile. They are likely designed to keep up with the fast moving breakthroughs that the Astartes do utilize with their armored formations.
And the vehicles having wheels, along with engines, by definition mean that they are not static.

And the Imperial Fists specialization is "siege warfare", not "defensive tactics". They can lay siege to fortifications just as well as they can hold them, with the same being true with the Iron Warriors.

Did I ever say Imperial fists? No. Also if you look back historically, almost every piece of defensive artillary that wasn't built into the structure has wheels, that did not make it mobile. A cannon still has to be unlimbered and set up. And AA has to be stablized to fire effectively. Even mobile artillary cannot be utilized effectively unless stablized. Also without the fast rule these tanks will be firing Snap shots if they move more then 6", which defeats the point of giving it Skyfire and leaves them behind. (Although why you feel the need to move up AA is beyond me.)

Imperial Deceit wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
It is perfectly relevent as there are SM who speciallize in defensive tactics. Also I highly doubt that either of the AA tanks will be fast, which means to be the most effective they will have to be static. Just because it has wheels doesn't mean its not static.

You are confusing the "fast vehicle" rules with "this is a fast vehicle chassis".
In the grand scheme of things, the Hunter/Stalker vehicles are highly mobile. They are likely designed to keep up with the fast moving breakthroughs that the Astartes do utilize with their armored formations.
And the vehicles having wheels, along with engines, by definition mean that they are not static.

And the Imperial Fists specialization is "siege warfare", not "defensive tactics". They can lay siege to fortifications just as well as they can hold them, with the same being true with the Iron Warriors.

Did I ever say Imperial fists? No.

The Imperial Fists are the most notable "SM who specialize in defensive tactics". If you want to actually bring up a point, try making it.

Also if you look back historically, almost every piece of defensive artillery that wasn't built into the structure has wheels, that did not make it mobile. A cannon still has to be unlimbered and set up.

And why are you having to unlimber/set up the cannons?

Oh right. Because you moved them there.
Wheels are made for moving things. Whether those wheels are then detached or immobilized by a structure intended to hold the cannon still does not suddenly make the cannon unable to be moved after firing.

And AA has to be stablized to fire effectively. Even mobile artillary cannot be utilized effectively unless stabilized.

Amazingly enough it looks like GW has though of such a thing, as there are pitons running along the hull which look to be stabilizers for firing.

Also without the fast rule these tanks will be firing Snap shots if they move more then 6", which defeats the point of giving it Skyfire and leaves them behind. (Although why you feel the need to move up AA is beyond me.)

And again you are purely concentrating on an argument you think that I am making about the rules.

I am saying NOTHING about the rules, as we know pretty much nothing about these vehicles. The fact of the matter is that they are Rhino chassis with attached AA weaponry. There is no reason that these could not have been introduced with C: DA, a codex which kind of hurts against aircraft.

You could say, the reason the AA tank isn't in the DA codex is because it hadn't been developed at the time of that books release.
I agree, it should be in there, as it should be a global SM unit. Especially in today's meta of flyer heaviness.
But, if it wasn't even a thought or something they could produce, why complain about it?

Sometimes people just like the sound of their own voice.

The end point is regardless of the reasoning (whether or not you choice to accept it) the DA do not have the new AA tanks and barring an FAQ (Unlikely) or a book like they did for Flyers (Also unlikely), they will not get to use them. If you need them that badly just ally those in like everyone else will be doing. BA, SW, and GK don’t get these toys either, but they aren’t nearly annoyed by it as the DA players are.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Sometimes people just like the sound of their own voice.

And sometimes people need to actually read comments they reply to rather than simply reply.

The end point is regardless of the reasoning (whether or not you choice to accept it) the DA do not have the new AA tanks and barring an FAQ (Unlikely) or a book like they did for Flyers (Also unlikely), they will not get to use them. If you need them that badly just ally those in like everyone else will be doing. BA, SW, and GK don’t get these toys either, but they aren’t nearly annoyed by it as the DA players are.

BA, SW, GK are not new books which would have been finishing design work when SM was underway.

BA and SW are going to be redone within the next few years. GK most likely will as well.

And quite frankly, the reason that DA players might be annoyed?
Because this is not the first time this has happened in regards to Dark Angels getting a full book and then Space Marines getting one within the span of a year. In both instances it gives off a very big feel of the Dark Angels book being the "experimental" Codex for the changes they added to SM.

The AA tanks seem to have hydraulic feet, suggesting they are not fast or even mobile. DA really got the short stick in terms of AA. Give the Niphlim outflank and S7 missiles and bam, worth the point cost. Give us Mortis Dreads! As said before, missed opportunities all over this codex. Still great fun to play though.

Ahum.. Yes, we are!
It's not just the toys, it's the reduction in point-costs of nearly everything that I am waiting for.

Well I don't really feel like repeating what I said enough times for you to understand a very simple point.

Also the game is based on a rule system. So just saying a tank is fast does not make it fast unless it has a rule saying so, otherwise it is just as bulky and slow as every other tank.

Further more GK are not that old, and they got (stole) a Flyer in the planning for 6th. Same for Necrons. GW knew exactly what they were doing when they released DA, and at least you actually have a real 6th edition codex. No other SM army has that, and won't for some time.