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This is why the new supplements are such good ideas.............

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Well I don't really feel like repeating what I said enough times for you to understand a very simple point.

And that point is...?

Because so far all I have seen is you clinging to your perception that when I talked about SM having their AA mounted upon fast moving vehicles I was meaning the rules, even after I clarified that I was not talking about the rules at all...because we do not know what the rules are with a hundred percent certainty.

Also the game is based on a rule system. So just saying a tank is fast does not make it fast unless it has a rule saying so, otherwise it is just as bulky and slow as every other tank.

The game might have a rule system, but it also has lore.

When I say that the Hunter and Stalker are highly mobile?
I'm referring to the lore. Given that a Vindicator--a Rhino chassis given heavier armor and a huge honking siege shield--is still able to pull 64 KPH on road and 48 KPH offroad, I think it is safe to say that the Hunter and Stalker are going to be able to continually maintain cohesion with the lore of the Astartes using armored formations for pushing ground assaults.

Further more GK are not that old, and they got (stole) a Flyer in the planning for 6th. Same for Necrons. GW knew exactly what they were doing when they released DA, and at least you actually have a real 6th edition codex. No other SM army has that, and won't for some time.

Other than SM--and Black Templars since they are now rolled into SM.

The hydraulic feet on the new tanks look as though they're actually used as temporary anchors. In other words, when you're not firing you lift them up and hey presto, you're as fast as a normal Rhino (in fluff terms, that's fast enough for the job). Prepping to fire? Pop the feet down to stabilise yourself. If true, the fluff for using them as mobile artillery works for me...

The trouble with Dark Angels AA is that their options at the moment (and for the foreseeable future) are a bit lackluster. If you don't want allies or fortifications you're either looking at Devastators with flakk missiles which are an expensive unit amongst a book full of units that got cheaper, or the Dark Angels' own fliers which, frankly, aren't very good.

It does seem a bit harsh to me that they won't get the extra AA option, and I'll agree that it doesn't make sense for these tanks not to be available to them. Centurions, though...? Fair play.

OH Its prefectly Fluffy for Dark Angels to have a tank able to shoot down aircraft! How else do they keep Fallen from escaping on whatever random flier they run off on?

So yeah, Don't try to say that them not having AA options isn't fluffy.

I can see why players would be annoyed that things like the AA tank, centurions, et al., are in the C:SM dex and not their dex, and that annoyance is understandable.

The desire to be able to have these units available in their dex as native choices is, in my opinion, silly. You get benefits and drawbacks from playing whatever flavor of Marine you play. If you want C:SM choices in your BA or SW dex, take an ally. That is what the allies rules are for.

There was a guy in my local store just last week saying this exact thing: "I think I should be able to take X as a BA choice". As if SW/BA/GK or whatever were entitled to everything C:SM gets and more.

Fluff-wise, I don't care what the justifications or anti- are. You don't get to just combine codicies because you think you should be able to. You pick your codex, your pick your allies, and you play.

It is what Allies are for.

I mean, tough ****. (Dark) Eldar players have been dealing with an identical harlequin entry in both books since ... 3rd edition? Because GW doesn't want to have different entries (apparently).

Marine dexes already get updated the most, steal from all other dexes, and now marine players apparently want to be able to pick and choose units from any marine dex at will? This on top of the Allies rules which already provides functionality for this. So the people who want this ability think they should be able to take SW or BA, choose AA/Centurions from C:SM, and then ally in Tau or maybe an eldar detachment.

How silly.

The tri turret tank is gonna be a rhino for me, the turret is going on a vengeance hull and will be allied to my ravenwing list, I have already put a whirlwind launcher on it and it looks good, the heavy bolter/assault cannon is just swapped for a storm bolter and...done looks great

AA and fliers in general have been mostly a major screwup on GWs part this edition anyway.

It's just a marketing measure for GW to force you to take allies or buy a whole new army with solutions. DA got it bad but I play Eldar and at least you can paint regular marines like DA and just not really acknowledge you're using another dex aesthetically.

I have to take Tau to deal with fliers of any type really, MCs especially. And there's not really any Eldar units that look like a riptide or crisis suits. (FYI I am aware of the Crimson Hunter, but in reality Tau allies outclass that thing 100% every time and don't depend on coming on the table second)

Not to derail -

the Allies/AA/Flyers thing works fine @ a friendly level. A single heldrake or a few AV10/11 flyers isn't gamebreaking.

The rules for flyers and the dearth of AA choices in most codexes basically allow anyone who really wants to to break the crap out of the game by taking multiple AV12 flyers. There are very few ways of dealing with those threats in an effective manner.

So, as a lot of people are trying to get the biggest advantage possible and are not playing at a friendly level (as I am more and more convinced GW playtesters do), the rules suck and the game is mostly bent into funny little shapes by flyers.

So, I hope that the SM AA choices are highly effective, cheap, and are taken as allies constantly.

If you want all the Space Marine armies.to have all the same rules and units, why have any other codexes at all? Because not every chapter runs the same, looks the same, tastes the same, etc.

Like I said, if you want the new shinies, use the new shiny book.

Gwyidion wrote:
I can see why players would be annoyed that things like the AA tank, centurions, et al., are in the C:SM dex and not their dex, and that annoyance is understandable.

The desire to be able to have these units available in their dex as native choices is, in my opinion, silly. You get benefits and drawbacks from playing whatever flavor of Marine you play. If you want C:SM choices in your BA or SW dex, take an ally. That is what the allies rules are for.

That would be all good and nice , if the DA only stuff was actualy worth taking . Their flyers are bad , the big speeders are either bad or depand on cover in a world where good stuff ignores cover. Their bikes are ok and the knights are realy nice , which could be a base of a good list if again there wasn't so much ignoring cover and helldrakes would exist. DW took a big hit from pure game mechanics of 6th ed and plasma coming back . You are right that DAs could ally in the anti air units or the centurios or what ever they wanted to use . But two things would happen . First in most cases you need two or more of a unit type for it to realy work and second if DA take SM ally , they can't take good ally like tau , something the new marines will not have problems with.

Actualy what is better for DA players is to take the sm dex and use their old DA units as the ally. They will never use more then one unit of knights and if they want troop terminators they can take GK ones which will be ok too.

I fully understand where people are coming from in the "Oh stop whining. You can just take them as allies" Camp. This is true and its one way to solve the issue. I also agree that the different flavors of space marines shouldn't all have the same units, otherwise whats the point in having them be different in the first place?

My argument is this, and I'm only commenting on ONE SPECIFIC UNIT. The Hunter, Anti-air tank should have been included in the Dark Angels Codex.

This has nothing to do with the unique units we already have, Most DA players will agree we'd gladly trade the Darkshroud/Vengence for the Hunter. DA have always been releases as a prototype for the Space Marine codex, and this is another release that is doing the same thing. The one thing we need badly, is a strong counter to flier, and this appears to be an oversight as its coming out now.

 OminusMarine wrote:
You could say, the reason the AA tank isn't in the DA codex is because it hadn't been developed at the time of that books release.
I agree, it should be in there, as it should be a global SM unit. Especially in today's meta of flyer heaviness.
But, if it wasn't even a thought or something they could produce, why complain about it?

If every new vehicle that coems out for C:SM gets added to every loyalist SM chapter I dont see why CSM dont get the same courtesy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
The AA tanks seem to have hydraulic feet, suggesting they are not fast or even mobile. DA really got the short stick in terms of AA.

I was going to bring up its hydraulic feet. Doesnt seem to fit the mass teleporting Deathwing or the always mobile Ravenwing.

CSM are worse for AA than DA, their troops cant even get flakk missiles and their flyer is pretty terrible at taking out other flyers(though it is awesome at other things)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:
The hydraulic feet on the new tanks look as though they're actually used as temporary anchors. In other words, when you're not firing you lift them up and hey presto, you're as fast as a normal Rhino (in fluff terms, that's fast enough for the job). Prepping to fire? Pop the feet down to stabilise yourself. If true, the fluff for using them as mobile artillery works for me...

The feet look to me like it is going to have rules like "if it remained stationary in the movement phase, it gains skyfire" or "may only fire it's main gun if it remained stationary"

self propelled guns are nice, as they can move themselves without a tractor or truck but they arent mobile in combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ralis wrote:

This has nothing to do with the unique units we already have, Most DA players will agree we'd gladly trade the Darkshroud/Vengence for the Hunter.

You would trade 2 units and a unique multipart kit that is covered with DA imagery for 1 plain looking tank that doesnt even have rules yet? What if it's rules suck?

You seem quick to jump to trade 2 units that dont have very popular rules, but would you trade Ravenwing Black Knights for the Hunter?


Every codex has it's duds, some more than others. I'm sure SW would trade blood claws for C:SM assault terminators, and BA would trade their honor guard for TFCs

Are regular Space Marines not good enough for Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Black Knights, Banners of Devestation, Darkshrouds, Dark Talons, Nephilims, Land Speeder Vengeances, etc.

If you Marine players want different army books, you need to accept you have different armies.

 Macok wrote:
So you want all MEQ books rolled into one? Otherwise why would there be numerous books that have the same thing?
Or is it the case of: Others have something we don't? Preposterous! We have something they don't? As it should be, because we're special!

Besides, isn't it a little too early to complain about weapons we know nothing about?

Agree with your last line there...love the threads complaining about codecies before they even get released.

That said 6th edition was the perfect time to get the Space Marine silliness under control again. Multiple marine codecies written by totally different authors who seemingly completely ignored any of the other books when they were writing their own so that they don't mesh at all is just stupid. Instead of Dark Angels GW should have released baseline C:SM, with Dark Angels as a supplement. Bring the uniformity of the Imperium back into the mix and actually get rid of the silly things that allowed Long fangs to cost less per model than devastators *and* get weapons for fewer points *and* get the ability to split fire.

That would have been my preference, but I've been toeing that line for a long time now.

Skriker

I used to be of the opinion that only idiots and marine haters wanted all the marine books rolled into one, I then realised why they wanted this and was less biased as a reason, now I'm seeing how well they have done the supplements and the fluff etc. That are in then, well I agree, all sm books...ALL, should be taken from codex marines, then do ba, da, sw, BT, and salamanders etc. As a supplement, it worked in 3rd for sw and ba and da, the supplements are a massive step up from the pamphlet edition books.

So in short, a 20 year dark angels vet thinks they should be rolled into codex space marines, with a 50 page supplement that has all the cool banners, land speeders and knights etc.
Same with wolves and ba.

Farsight enclaves and iyandan books prove this beyond doubt, as will the black legion and speed freaks books

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Are regular Space Marines not good enough for Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Black Knights, Banners of Devestation, Darkshrouds, Dark Talons, Nephilims, Land Speeder Vengeances, etc.

If you Marine players want different army books, you need to accept you have different armies.

And yet most of those are horrible, I feel for the DA.

Don't feel bad for us da players, this is by far the the best dex we ever had (units wise)

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Are regular Space Marines not good enough for Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Black Knights, Banners of Devestation, Darkshrouds, Dark Talons, Nephilims, Land Speeder Vengeances, etc.

If you Marine players want different army books, you need to accept you have different armies.

I see where you're coming from. I would rather them make the Niphlim good than give us Stormtalon/raven. In fact, most of the units we got are average at best. Land Speeder Vengeance? Huge potential to be a really cool, unique unit, but in game terms it's terrible.

The main thing the Dark Angels (and Chaos Space Marines for that matter) lost out on was not really expanding their repertoire in to anti-air.

Basically, they both got flak rounds for missile launchers (and only for Havocs in CSM) and a flyer. So in order to fight flyers we either needed to take them or take fortifications. This made for poor solutions. While fortifications are nice, they are something everyone has access to, so not really stellar. And that just left the new flyers as the main point of failure in the AA repertoire. The major lack of anything with Interceptor didn't help either. Chaos made out well with their flyer (but little with anything else), save for the unfortunate part about the ground-attack version being the only one that gets taken. This would have been easy to fix with both, but strangely, GW didn't seem to actually start fiddling with the flyer status quo until Tau.

This was a major failing of the early 6th Edition stuff, and GW's inability/unwillingness to fix the 5th Edition pseudo-flyers in Death from the Skies only made it worse.

So seeing the Space Marines get all of this AA love is at least a little distressing. It reminds me of 4th/5th edition "tweak-creep" among the MEQ armies. But this only becomes a major issue if the new SM codex does everything the Dark Angels codex does, but more.

For all its faults, the Dark Angels made out well in the new codex. Things like Black Knights, bolter-spam SoD lists and the ability to make some very nasty combined arms lists is a huge boon. If C: SM does what the 5th Edition SM codex did to the 4th Edition DA by taking all of their good tricks, doing them cheaper and adding in more flexibility; well, then that will be a huge fumble.

SM can definitely rock better AA, just so long as they don't have other tricks that copy and then improve on what the Dark Angels can do. And hopefully the AA thing becomes less problematic if/when they fix flyers (I guess we will see if the Stormraven gets nerfed in this pass).

I don't think the Dark Angels need SM toys any more than they need ours. What we need is an environment where each new MEQ codex isn't seen as a chance to improve the formula rather than make something different but equal.

Unfortunately, I don't have a huge hope that GW has the skill to do this. But I am more than ready to be dead wrong. I guess we'll see when marines get released.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Are regular Space Marines not good enough for Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Black Knights, Banners of Devestation, Darkshrouds, Dark Talons, Nephilims, Land Speeder Vengeances, etc.

If you Marine players want different army books, you need to accept you have different armies.

I see where you're coming from. I would rather them make the Niphlim good than give us Stormtalon/raven. In fact, most of the units we got are average at best. Land Speeder Vengeance? Huge potential to be a really cool, unique unit, but in game terms it's terrible.

More or less. The main failing of the Dark Angels codex was that a lot of our brand new toys are actually kind of crap (about 50/50 really). The DWK's aren't too bad (great LRC-bound assault unit), the Black Knights are great, the Vengeance is pants compared to just about anything (way too much of a glass cannon), the Dark Shroud is great, the Nephelim is crap as an AA unit and not really needed to handle anti-vehicle work, the Dark Talon is interesting (but not really great either).

All that is really needed from here are a few small tweaks. The inclusion of the Mortis-pattern dread (with access to Skyfire/Interceptor), a whirlie variant with anti-air capability and a few tweaks and improvements to the Nephelim would be the extent of it. That would give us a bit of the flexibility and internal balance we are missing.

 Formosa wrote:
Don't feel bad for us da players, this is by far the the best dex we ever had (units wise)

Also true. Even Angels of Death wasn't kind to us balance-wise (though marines as a whole were kind of pants in 2nd what with costing 30 points a piece). Only our all-speeder gimmick list was up there in terms of cheese. 3rd (including the second printing) and 4th were horrible to us. 6th is the best thing to happen to us in a long time. It only lacks a bit in internal balance, but that is fairly common for GW. If they continue with incremental tweaks in the next codex (and edition for that matter) then our current issues are quite solvable. But that would require more forethought from GW than I have come to expect.

I really don't see the point in crying about the toys other books get, but that said here is a fun little bit of rules information from 40k Radio refarding the tanks:

They're AV 12/12/10 and DO NOT have Interceptor.

I've already seen some complaints that they're the Hydra all over again because of it.

Malik_Raynor wrote:
I can already tell where we have huge gaps that other Codex Armies are filling quite nicely! .

You mean, the one other codex army, that isnt even released or even officially announced has all the answers? Or are you talking about the army that just lost its individual codex?

I really don't get the complaints over this being another instance of "DA are just prototypes for Vanilla!". The entire premise of the thread is that Vanilla get different things to DA. How on Earth is that the same as last time, when Vanilla took the SAME units and made them better?

CSM are worse for AA than DA, their troops cant even get flakk missiles and their flyer is pretty terrible at taking out other flyers(though it is awesome at other things)

You want to tell me that the raven or talon is worse at anti flyer then the DA flyers ? The flakk rocket options are dead option . No one is taking them for DA or chaos havocks , because they cost too much and are only skyfire without interceptor.

Are regular Space Marines not good enough for Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Black Knights, Banners of Devestation, Darkshrouds, Dark Talons, Nephilims, Land Speeder Vengeances, etc.

Out of all those the banner the RW knights are the only semi good units and that is only , if there are no cover ignoring or helldrake using armies around. Also it is not like marines can't make bike armies , they can actualy more point efficient then the DA one and that is with an old codex that isn't ment for 6th ed.

You seem quick to jump to trade 2 units that dont have very popular rules, but would you trade Ravenwing Black Knights for the Hunter?

That is a trick question in a world of helldrakes , FMC and necron armies , right?

From the B & C site DA section.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278284-anyone-leaving-for-the-new-sm-codex/page-2#entry3420249

Brother Dark Angel! Brother Dark Angel! I have tidings I must share with you!

DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA
What was that, Brother Ultramarine? I was smiting heretics with my holy bolter.

Well done, Brother Dark Angel! But, if you have a moment, I must share my tidings?

(Peers at the distant rubble) Well, the traitor trash seem to be laying low for now. How fare you, Brother Ultramarine?

Excellently, Brother Dark Angel! The new Codex Space Marines comes forth, and bestowed upon me a new Combat Tactics rule! I can reroll all misses with my holy bolter now!

That's splendid, Brother Ultramarine! But look, yonder heretics mass for a renewed attack. Shall we employ our new rules against them?

A capital idea, Brother Dark Angel! Let us bestow upon them the Emperor's wrath!
DAKKA(reroll)
A hit! A most palpable hit! Did you see, Brother Dark Angel?

Indeed I did, Brother Ultramarine! Excellently done!

Now you, Brother Dark Angel! I wouldn't want to hoard all the heretic smiting to myself!

Too kind of you, Brother Ultramarine. Hmm, there's a small squad over there....
DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA
Botheration. Only hit twice. The Interrogator Chaplain is likely to assign me potato peeling penance for that.

Err...Brother Dark Angel?

DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA
Ahh, got the other three that time. That's more like it.

Brother Dark Angel?

Yes, Brother Ultramarine?

Brother Dark Angel, how is it your are able to lay down such a torrent of fire?

Ah, well, you see yonder battle standard over there? That is our holy Standard of Devastation, proximity to which allows me and my brethren to fire as many shots from our holy bolters as an assault cannon fires per turn.

Oh! My goodness! That's...that's quite impressive!

DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA
Eh, I suppose. Was quite the rush the first time, but I've gotten quite accustomed to it.

Indeed, I suppose one might. But you can't reroll your misses?

Not right now, no.

Stalwart battle brother, may the Emperor guide your aim!

Who was that, Brother Dark Angel?

One of our Librarians, Brother Ultramarine. He's just cast Prescience on me.

And that does what, Brother Dark Angel?

Allows me to reroll misses, Brother Ultramarine. With both shooting and in close combat.
DAKKADAKKADAKKA(reroll)DAKKA
Four hits! That will teach those spineless miscreants!

So, you can fire four shots a turn, and reroll all misses?

Indeed it is so, Brother Ultramarine.

I feel most hard done by. I believe I will have to complain to someone about the injustice.

Indeed you should, Brother Ultramarine. Perhaps it will do you some good...next edition.

Thou art a jerk, Brother Dark Angel.

DAKKADAKKADAKKA(reroll)DAKKA
What's that, Brother Ultramarine? I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am!

Enjoy.

exalted

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
The AA tanks seem to have hydraulic feet, suggesting they are not fast or even mobile. DA really got the short stick in terms of AA. Give the Niphlim outflank and S7 missiles and bam, worth the point cost. Give us Mortis Dreads! As said before, missed opportunities all over this codex. Still great fun to play though.

Am I missing something here but aren't Mortis Dreadnoughts DA only?

Naw wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
The AA tanks seem to have hydraulic feet, suggesting they are not fast or even mobile. DA really got the short stick in terms of AA. Give the Niphlim outflank and S7 missiles and bam, worth the point cost. Give us Mortis Dreads! As said before, missed opportunities all over this codex. Still great fun to play though.

Am I missing something here but aren't Mortis Dreadnoughts DA only?

Yep. They're FW though, which annoys some people (therefor annoying me). I just don't get why they didn't put them in the DA book.

The way I see it is that each marine army, if it has its own Codex needs differing rules and units. As soon as we see standardization across the Marine board its time for one big Astartes Codex.

And also, theres negs and pluses to all of the different chapters and their options, thats what makes the game interesting. Flyers are somewhat of a mishandled entry into the game, and for people that play against them alot I can understand the frustration.