Switch Theme:

CSM Units Vs Nids  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Been Around the Block




That's why I took the familiar, at least I get a second chance to make the test - though I agree its a lot harder on 3 dice than 2!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is 3 tanks too much at this sort of point level?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 09:35:46


 
   
Made in de
Swift Swooping Hawk






RedRoss83 wrote:
That's why I took the familiar, at least I get a second chance to make the test - though I agree its a lot harder on 3 dice than 2!

Is 3 tanks too much at this sort of point level?


With Ld 10 and a reroll the probability is 75% to pass the test with 3D6. That's not too shabby. Also I mostly manage to keep my psykers more then 12" away.

There is no such thing as too much tanks 3 tanks give a high target saturation with 13 armor front and a comparably cheap point value. This disencourages the opponent from shooting at them since even if he gets one destroyed there will still 2 be left. This prompts most players more often than not to shoot at a unit or group he can destroy in one phase. Just like you think twice about shooting a Tyranid with 6 wounds if you can't remove it in that round. It's just psychology I guess, everyone wants to shoot units dead in a strategy game.

My armies:
Eldar
Necron
Chaos Space Marines
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Death Guard
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Are there any units that I need to be wary of around tanks? I've read that maybe Zoanthropes could pose the biggest threat outside of the MC Smash attacks?
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

RedRoss83 wrote:
Always great waking up and seeing lots of useful input to a post

I'm seeing much love for the LC Pred - so how do you think the following would fare, is it overkill?

Sorcerer Lvl 2, Spell Familiar
10 CSM, 1 Flamer, 1 ML, VotLW
10 Cultists, Autoguns
Tri-Las Pred
Tri-Las Pred
Tri-Las Pred


Though I have little love for autocannons, I think its the better option per point on preds...auto with las sponsons is a fantastic loadout. If you're using a psyker...makes sure he's a buffer and not an attacker/debuffer.

I don't think 3 is necessary...If you're eventually willing to do allies...daemonettes and hounds are a good counter to bug infantry...and of course...a bloodthirster kills MCs...except for the swarmlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, don't try to kill tervigons unless you have no better option...they will outlast most everything else in our army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 12:19:23


Come play games in West Michigan at https://www.facebook.com/tcpgrwarroom 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




So something like this may be better ??

Sorcerer Lvl 2, Spell Familiar, Bike
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
AC/LC Pred
AC/LC Pred
AC/LC Pred
5 x Bikes, 2 x Meltas
10 Cultists
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

I am unfamiliar with cultists but I think the rest would be a pain in the butt for my bugs.

Come play games in West Michigan at https://www.facebook.com/tcpgrwarroom 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Thanks for the input Duct - good to know my list represents at least some threat Cultists are the cheapest of the cheap troop choices and are there to grab objectives really. Coul swap them out with Marines but i'd be losing some of my bigger guns if I did.

I'm quite happy with this list for both the Tau and Necron armies I will be facing too, kinda got caught up in trying to counter the Nids (I think all 3 of us are having this problem) - but happy that it could give the others a hard time too
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

The issue is that the current meta is turning to S6-7 Ap4+ weaponry and bugs thrive in that...there's not a huge difference in a bolter and an autocannon to an MC. You need either a high volume of fire or high strength lower AP...as iron arm is prevalent right now...high strength is kind of necessary.

Come play games in West Michigan at https://www.facebook.com/tcpgrwarroom 
   
Made in us
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Minot, ND

I like Missile launchers personally. Krak Missiles hurt MC a lot and they aren't that expensive, then you can switch them up and use Frags to finish off the hordes.

War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.

It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR

 azreal13 wrote:

But the strawman holocaust in Notts continues apace.
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

Just don't ever go into a game thinking you have hordes covered with flak...they barely dent our ranks.

Come play games in West Michigan at https://www.facebook.com/tcpgrwarroom 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

 Musashi363 wrote:
Storm shields were around during the HH. We dont get them because GW hates us.


along with stormravens, whirlwinds, jetbikes etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ductvader wrote:
I am unfamiliar with cultists but I think the rest would be a pain in the butt for my bugs.


cultists are completely worthless(but cheap) scoring troops. Think IG infantry squad but worse(although perhaps more CC attacks)

They are cheap, and take the same number of Lascannon shots to bring down as a FNP BA assault marine squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/15 14:14:43


Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 ductvader wrote:
Just don't ever go into a game thinking you have hordes covered with flak...they barely dent our ranks.


Maybe if I swapped out one of the LC/AC Preds for a Dakka Pred?
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

Great!...what's that mean?

Auto cannon heavy bolters? I like that.

Come play games in West Michigan at https://www.facebook.com/tcpgrwarroom 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Yeah 2 shots with the AC then a max of 6 shots with the HB.

Pro : clearing off troops from objectives, cheaper than AC/LC Pred

Con : I lose 2 S9 shots.


The HBs could be more useful for killing off a potential Zoanthrope threat too I guess - damn their 3++!!
   
Made in au
Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne




GoliothOnline wrote:

The best thing I have found for this, is to take a minimum of 2 drakes for any troop choice they decide to bring, solely, dedicated Nid roasters, while trying to position the template to take random shots at other models as well as hitting their squads of gaunts is the best method of murder I have been able to competitively muster in my roughly 60 games played against my friends Nids.


2 Drakes per 1 troop? Have i misread? your not gonna have any scoring yourself?!! If he takes 2 troops youd need at least 4 drakes? So thats 2x force org.. which forces him to take another 2 troop choices... breaking your rule again?!

On a side note... whod play with you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think theres alot to be said for small plague marine squads with 2 plasma guns if you can fit em in: a troop that has ability to damage/ scare mcs 2x 24" + 4x rapidfired (+bonous overwatch) str 7 ap2? nothing be laughed at. Also poison attacks in melee + T5 and fnp = will do pretty handily aginst the little fellas.

I dont think the Ac/Lc preds are that good but give em a go some people swear by em- its the cheapest way to get a lascannon sort of.

Id keep the sorc unmarked so you dont have to take a useless csm power.

I only ever take one small blob of cultists to keep in reserve and grab my backfield objective. Other than that there to easy to take for 11st blood or clear off an objective. Unles you have a better plan for em (like a massive blob escorting a AoBF k lord) then leave the 2nd and 3rd squad at home.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/16 09:54:20


 
   
Made in gb
Brainy Zoanthrope





They are pricey but I'm a big fan of Chosen of Slaanesh decked out with plasma.

3-4 attacks depending on the charge at WS4 and I5 means you scythe through gaunts before they even get to attack and by packing plasma guns you can ensure big momma is already bleeding or dead before she gets in close.

It's probably worth investing in a rhino to keep them covered from MC devourers and the Dooms initial assault as they are only power armoured but assuming they still have full plasma they can put 4.4 wounds on an MC in one double tap and 2.2 out to 24"

Basic double melee Slaaneshi Marines will also do the job on the cheap with double plasma while keeping the number of bodies high for scoring. The key is getting to I5 which means striking ahead of those pesky spawned gaunts and allow you to keep the horde under control.

Like that post?
Try: http://40kwyrmtalk.blogspot.co.uk/
It's more of the same. 
   
Made in us
Strangely Beautiful Daemonette of Slaanesh



where the wind comes sweeping down the plains

You are right, but I think havoc plasma is a good bit cheaper for lower point games...

I run slaaneshi builds and other than power fist troops, everyone gets the mark...

The plasma havoc (or chosen) and noiseboys combo has been hell on nids from my playing experience.
I use the rhinos and have 2 blast masters poking their heads out
To cover the heavy opponents I run hellbrutes and oblits with them typically

 
   
Made in de
Despised Traitorous Cultist





What a great thread, this made me join the forums. :-)

Not having played too many games yet, this is the usual matchup against my only friend who also plays 40k. We also play around 1000 points, so I feel your pain.

My experience so far is:
- Dealing with the swarm isn't that difficult, it's taking down the big 'uns where my problems start.
- Iron Arm is a b***h on Tyranid Monstrous Creatures...
- ... but it doesn't make anyone unbreakable either. They don't always get it. They usually don't get it on everyone. They do sometimes roll 1s for your bonus and often enough even a Ld 10 psychic test fails.

Some things that have more or less met with success for me:

- Sorcerer of Tzeentch on Disc, Force Staff, Sigil of Corruption:
Charges in, Instant Deaths a Monstrous Creature, probably dies in the process

- Forgefiend with Hades ACs
with the amount of shots it usually does something useful

- Multiple 5 man squads of CSMs with Plasma Guns

- Havocs with 2 ML / 2 AC

- Against flying MCs Havocs with 2 ML (+flakk missiles) / 2 HB. Yes, that's heavy bolters. FMCs must be forced to take grounding tests every turn they're in the air, and the amount of shots in a 2 HBs will make sure of that.

- Anything AP3, as most of the time it's better to only wound on 6+, than having them pass their 3+ saves all the time (I'm looking at you, Autocannons!)

That being said, it's usually not one singular type of unit that will bring MCs down. The most important thing seems to be to make sure you can focus as many units as you can on bringing them down one at a time.

That being said, dealing with MCs is still a chore...

...unless...

...you embrace the power of the Dark Gods and summon some daemons:

- Bloodletters ignore 3+ armour and will do some serious damage to most MCs (barring Iron Arm, but see above). Also they are now cheap.

- Bloodthirster.
Jumps from Tervigon to Trygon to Hive Tyrant, knocking of heads. Hilarity ensues as long as you keep it away from poisoned Gaunt swarms.

If you won't allow flyers, just agree to use it as it was before flyers where introduced to 40k, which is basically a jump Monstrous Creature. Against Tyranids it will still do what it does best.


All this being said, it's certainly a relief to see I'm not the only one to have difficulties against Tyranids. Let's keep the ideas flowing! :-)



"It's called treachery, Roboute. It works very well."

 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Welcome to the forums - glad this thread helped seal the deal as it were :-)

Been some great advice so far - plenty that I'm looking forward to trying out and reporting back on. I am really tempted by the Havocs bit I have used them before and they fell pretty quickly to his Doom unit. Nothing to say he will play it again bit ita done him alright so far!

As for the Daemons - I will be going that way when we all agree to start upping the points. Getting some MCs of my own could be lots of fun!
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Grand Rapids Metro

 Cryptonomicon wrote:

- Dealing with the swarm isn't that difficult, it's taking down the big 'uns where my problems start.


I heartily agree with Cryptonomicon's in depth analysis except for the above point. But I play a real horde...not this sissy "my tervigons produce my horde" idea that people seem to think is a horde.

Come play games in West Michigan at https://www.facebook.com/tcpgrwarroom 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




I understand many people's fear of too many flyers, but that's part of the game now. Time to dive in, or up. Necrons, Nids, and Chaos need their flyers. And Tau can get Skyfire/Interceptor stuff for their suits so they shouldn't care much either.

At the very least, you should be calling your Flying Daemon Princes and Flyrants Jump Monstrous Creatures.

Also, Noise Marines aren't super duper good. Seems like they should be, but they're not. And most Gaunts will just bum rush you even without cover saves on the way (the Tervigons just make more next turn). Plus you can only get 2 Blastmasters if there's a 10 Noise Marine squad, not at 7 guys. If you want to try the Slaaneshi route, a Steed Lord with Plasma Gun or Flamer bikers Outflanking with the Lord's Burning Brand, now that could hurt some Tyranids. Getting behind those Gaunts is important, for assault purposes too. Most of the time I want to assault Tervigons, the little buggers are in the way!

They'll be getting a new Codex in November apparently, so we'll have to wait and see what they can do next. I expect random psychic powers, the Doom to be somewhat nerfed, the new rumored Dominatrix to be ridiculous but expensive, and Hive Guard are said to be getting Skyfire. Hopefully the last part is false, though if their range is reduced to 18" or they have to only Skyfire then not a huge deal.

I hate the Tyranids. Haven't won a game against them since 4th edition! And that was due to my Lord of Change of all things.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 Cryptonomicon wrote:
- Against flying MCs Havocs with 2 ML (+flakk missiles) / 2 HB. Yes, that's heavy bolters. FMCs must be forced to take grounding tests every turn they're in the air, and the amount of shots in a 2 HBs will make sure of that.


FMCs only do 1 test per unit that hit them, so those heavy bolters won't be doing anything unless you whiff with your flakk missiles.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Just going back - a few people have mentioned using Daemon allies which is quite an intriguing prospect. Any ideas of any good units which fill in the CSM blanks?

Im kinda thinking LoC with plenty of rolls on Divination!?
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 ductvader wrote:
 Cryptonomicon wrote:

- Dealing with the swarm isn't that difficult, it's taking down the big 'uns where my problems start.


I heartily agree with Cryptonomicon's in depth analysis except for the above point. But I play a real horde...not this sissy "my tervigons produce my horde" idea that people seem to think is a horde.

What like this?

30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
Tervigon
Tervigon
Tervigon

Garg spam
Garg spam
Garg spam

That's a pretty hefty horde there.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in de
Swift Swooping Hawk






Stupid question... there's no more demon summoning in the CSM codex, is it?

My armies:
Eldar
Necron
Chaos Space Marines
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Death Guard
 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Well, there is Daemonic Apotheosis where a character can turn into a Daemon Prince, but apart from that no. You can always ally with Chaos Daemons though.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




So I can vouch for a set of 3 LC/AC Preds, spread out across the deployment zone but able to focus fire. Taking down the Tervigon and watching the resultant Gant demolition was most satisfying :-)
   
Made in us
Power-Hungry Cultist of Tzeentch





Spell familiar is a pretty solid way to mitigate shadows, but maybe 1 less tri-las and do something with those cultists, 10 dudes is just gonna get pushed off, the same squad at 20 with 2 flamers is actually fairly decent.

10,000
3,000
500
1,000 
   
Made in de
Swift Swooping Hawk






I won the last game against Nids. What worked well for me:

Demon Prince with Wings, Armor and Black Mace. Fleshbane hit always on 2+, even with toughness 8 or 9. Smashed a Winged Hive Tyrant and a Trygon.

Helbrute with Reaper Autocannon: Did one wound per turn in average. That was not impressive in any turn, but alltogether it did 5 wounds on big nasties.

Best thing in game maybe: Multiple squads of 5 Plague Marines in a Rhino with 2 Plasma Guns. Those 4 S7 shots just did the trick. The Rhino can took some fire and even when it got opened the 5 marines with poison, FNP and grenades either tarpitted or pumped out 4 S7 shots every turn.

Psi Powers were a waste. Did not work too often.

One Predator with Lascannons worked well. 13 front armor kept him alive well enough.

Cultists: made my opponent choose between wasting shots on cheap troops and leaving me with a lot of scoring units.

Alltogether: with an adjusted list it was more than possible to win.

My armies:
Eldar
Necron
Chaos Space Marines
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Death Guard
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: