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 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Just to point out - Jamie cannot get Casterly Rock since he's not Tywin's true son...

Based on what?

His aunt, Lady Genna Lannister (well, now a Frey unfortunately!), in AFFC's tells him, ""Jamie," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloack... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you..."

Jamie & Cersi are bastards!
(we simply don't know who's yet though, but my guess is Kevan did deed...)

She was referring to temperment, not blood, in that conversation.

Um.....

The major suggestion of this comes in Danys POV when Barristan admits that Aerys the Mad King had the hots for Joanna Lannister. Tywins WIFE. According to Barristan certain "liberties" were taken in the bedroom and Aerys made no secret of his lust for the woman. When Dany presses him on this he says "I am sorry your grace I fear I have said too much". Either, this is a red herring, or it is a huge hint that Jamie/Cersei are secret Targs. Which explains A LOT about their behavior as well as the irony that Tywin spurned his true son.

Somewhere behind his computer screen, Martin is giggling like an little evil catholic schoolgirl.

The trend is for Targaryen's bastard to be all black haired, à la Baratheon. Furthermore, There is no way in hell that Tywinn Lannister would've allowed this to happen, or the children to grow old. If they had been recognized, the twins would've become bastards, but they would also have become a threat to the Lannister's claim of Casterly Rock.

And they behave the way they behave simply because they are filthy rich, beautiful and healthy. Having everything handed to you tend to turn you into a brat. Tyrion, because of his dwarfism, is on the other hand half a decent person.




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 d-usa wrote:
So far he has made the best ruler out of anybody in the book, and there are numerous instances of people mentioning that a small person can cast a very large shadow.

So far the best player in the Game of Thrones is, and by far, Petyr Baelish. Just take in account where he started, and where he is at right now.
Second place goes to Varys.
Third goes to Daenarys.

While Tyrion is all kinds of badass, he's currently in a much worse situation than he began with.

That and Tyrion doesn't play the game to win. He just plays to 1. survive, and 2. do the best he can for everyone else. Which is why he's where he is now.

The Jaime/Cersei/Tyrion is a Targ theory is just grasping at straws. Even if it is true, it'd be bad, cliched writing. Part of what makes all three characters interesting is how they deal with the fact that they're Lannisters, the children of the mighty Tywin.

 djones520 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Just to point out - Jamie cannot get Casterly Rock since he's not Tywin's true son...

Based on what?

His aunt, Lady Genna Lannister (well, now a Frey unfortunately!), in AFFC's tells him, ""Jamie," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloack... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you..."

Jamie & Cersi are bastards!
(we simply don't know who's yet though, but my guess is Kevan did deed...)

She was referring to temperment, not blood, in that conversation.

Although I hasten to add that, RAW, he can't take Casterly Rock anyway because he joined the Kingsguard.... right?

So far as the speculation about Jon Snow actually being dead, I'd be all for it. It would be hardcore, and people who not expect it.

But I think he's probably going to go with the Rhaegar thing instead.

As a member of the Kingsgaurd he can't yet. Until the King waves his hand and makes an edict saying he can.

Granted, Tommen's puppet handlers are dead now (save Cercei) so who knows if that'll ever happen.

I think Tyrion is given a few too many free passes. I mean his words are near prophetic as hes right far too many times. Plus his continued survival in the plot is getting a little odd. Him going kratos at the Blackwater was...

Same with Varys and Littlefinger. So much stupidity and suspension of disbelief is required to believe that they get away with and pull off the things they do. Name one thing Littlefinger has achieved that wasn't achieved by luck and his opponents being overly-dumb?

I am not a mega fan of the Jamie/Cersei theory. Again, more secret targs just ends up taking away from Danys arc.

However,
* Tywin probably didn't know. Just like he didn't know about their incest and just like Robert never suspected. He only saw two beautiful Lannister twins and left it at that.

*As pointed out these are his beautiful children and his heir. Although Tywin is a very grim and ruthless character he is quite shallow. He knows that having a beautiful princess aids the Lannister cause and having this charismatic knightly heir does as well. These are the heirs he wants. Look how he spurns Tyrion largely due to him being an ugly dwarf. This probably silenced any doubts.

*Joanna never told Tywin. If Joanna was raped by Aerys, why on earth would she tell her husband who she knew had sent his fathers mistress out in rags through Lannisport?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

I am not a mega fan of the Jamie/Cersei theory. Again, more secret targs just ends up taking away from Danys arc.

However,
* Tywin probably didn't know. Just like he didn't know about their incest and just like Robert never suspected. He only saw two beautiful Lannister twins and left it at that.

*As pointed out these are his beautiful children and his heir. Although Tywin is a very grim and ruthless character he is quite shallow. He knows that having a beautiful princess aids the Lannister cause and having this charismatic knightly heir does as well. These are the heirs he wants. Look how he spurns Tyrion largely due to him being an ugly dwarf. This probably silenced any doubts.

*Joanna never told Tywin. If Joanna was raped by Aerys, why on earth would she tell her husband who she knew had sent his fathers mistress out in rags through Lannisport?

I don't think Jamie/Cersi are secretly Targaryen b******ds, but the fact that Joanna's pregnancy w/Tyrion was difficult, plus his birth cost her life, and just how completely different he is to his otherwise 'perfect' siblings points to Tywin having weak swimmers.
If Tywin was having trouble getting Joanna preggy, it's not hard to think that perhaps his brother Kevan might have helped him out, as he tends to always follow Tywin's lead/word.

Being Lannister b******ds still fits with Tywin's mentality of always putting the needs of the family first above all else.

If Tyrion wasn't his trueborn son, Tywin would've immediately gotten rid of him. He hated Tyrion, and only kept him around because he knew the kid was his son.

 LoneLictor wrote:
If Tyrion wasn't his trueborn son, Tywin would've immediately gotten rid of him. He hated Tyrion, and only kept him around because he knew the kid was his son.

Tyrion is 100% Tywin's son. It's Jamie & Cersi who are the b******ds!

 LoneLictor wrote:
If Tyrion wasn't his trueborn son, Tywin would've immediately gotten rid of him. He hated Tyrion, and only kept him around because he knew the kid was his son.

His own words to Tyrion were "I let you wear my sigil only because I cannot prove that you are not mine."

Experiment 626 wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
If Tyrion wasn't his trueborn son, Tywin would've immediately gotten rid of him. He hated Tyrion, and only kept him around because he knew the kid was his son.

Tyrion is 100% Tywin's son. It's Jamie & Cersi who are the b******ds!

I hope you're being tongue-in-cheek.

Tyrion has some kind of role to play with Danny. She can win battles, but like Rob doesn't really understand politics. She needs a hand of the queen. Selmy is too honerable, and Jorah's judgment it too clouded by his feelings for her.

Cerci and Tommen are screwed. It took the Targs 200 years and dragons to de militerize the church. The kraken is released and I don't see anybody being able to contain it again. The iron bank will collect it's dues. Last but not least kings landing is nothing without Highgarden. It's not even winter yet and they ran out of food because of the war. Without highgarden supplying them with food it's over, and Cerci has really strained that alliance.

Honestly, I think Tyrion's political career is over. To Daenarys, all he is is another Lion, in addition to being a deformed, alcoholic Kinslayer and Kingslayer with poor manners. Everyone hates him and at this point he's utterly dependent on the Second Sons - and guess what, he owes the Second Sons more money than he'll ever be able to pay.

great discussion folks, I love reading about the books from people much more informed in them then I.

Only thing I really want to see is a full on naked oil fight between Dany, and Cerci...at least in game of thrones

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
great discussion folks, I love reading about the books from people much more informed in them then I.

Only thing I really want to see is a full on naked oil fight between Dany, and Cerci...at least in game of thrones

I don't think Emelia Clarke looks that nice naked. Honestly. Her breasts go all pointy and especially that bathtub scene was a real fail IMO. In clothes and out of character she looks very nice though.


Oh yeah we will get to see Cersei naked later on though. The walk of SHAME. Even I felt a little sorry for her there. Even if she is the wicked witch of the west.

Need to point out obvious here, Joanna Lannister was not a Lannister by blood but by marriage. As we know she was the mother for the children to resemble Lannisters so closely means the father must have been a Lannister.

The only was out for the Targ-bastards everywhere conspiracy to hold is if the Mad King was also of strong Lannister blood, and we know enough about his geneology to claim he wasn't.

Jaime and Cersei are Lannisters and I see no reason to disagree with comments that by reason of cunning Tyrion is Tywins true son.

It is my hope that Dany drowns her enemies in blood and fire if only to make up for the pathetic shell she became in the last book :( she needs to get more in touch with her darker side

Retake her city - feed the hostages to her Dragons if she needs to keep order and burn any other city that tries to attack her. Let her keep her precious mercenary as a concubine, embrace the opportunity that is Tyrion and conquer the lands fo her birth before turning her dragon fire against the armies of the cold. Marry Tyrion and unite the familes under her rule . Adopt Roberts children if she can no longer have her own (which is now debatable). Job done

I care little for most of the other characters - especially for those crammed into the last book for no reason. Re Jon -

I like Ms Clarke as Dany but thought Tamzin Merchant who was origianlly up for the role looks more like the character from the book - she is also very pretty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamzin_Merchant

Since everyone is talking about the series in general.

I just wanted to talk about the scene in Clash of Kings from a re-read where Jorah gives Dany the peach in the city of bones. Now, this is described as "small" and "over-ripe": however when Dany tastes it its so sweet it "almost makes her cry". Anyway I think there is actually a lot of symbolism and maybe a bit of foreshadowing.

The other time a peach comes up in Clash of Kings is the prominent scene between Renly and Stannis. He takes it out and bites it in front of Stannis. He says this represents the richs, wealth and power of the Reach. So there is a clear correlation between land/power and the fruit. Given that in the scene with Dany Jorah goes on to talk about Bear Island as a poor impoverished place and why his first wife left him over money this implies that the peach is a metaphor for Jorahs social status as its a small peach. Obviously relative to Daenerys who is Queen he is far below her in station and this is a topic which comes up as he discusses his wife Lynesse. In addition, the word "over-ripe", suggests something left for too long and this could refer to Jorah being older than Daenerys. If we then take the peach to be Jorah himself then the fact that Dany is thinking initially of appearances could be referring to her thinking that she can't imagine enjoying having sex with Jorah at all. Indeed in that chapter she does exactly this in pretty blunt terms! So I think that it suggests that Dany would actually enjoy having sex with Jorah and is letting appearances and issues of status get in the way just as she did with thinking she wouldn't enjoy eating a small over-ripe peach. It is meant to say that she is actually mistaken in her assumption she wouldn't enjoy it.

Do you think there is a bit of symbolism going on here?