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There are plenty of things in the CSM dex that don't really worry about Plasma Vets. That's the other thing you are missing. You think that I care about Plasma Vets when I'm running Typhus and over 100 Plague Zombies?

They're wasting BS4 plasma shots on 4 point models, and they aren't getting close enough to my other things to do any damage. Meanwhile, they can snapfire at my Heldrakes if they really want to, but again, they have just as good a chance at frying themselves as they do at hitting my Heldrake.

Plasma Vets are only really a threat if you DS something valuable right next to them. Here's a plan - don't do it. Open them up from afar and assault them with Spawn or burn their asses with a Baleflamer.


Ailaros, you're really assuming worst case scenarios here - Plasma Vets against Obliterators are pretty much the best matchup that the IG player can hope for. Plasma Vets vs. your berzerker blobs aren't really that big a deal - 3 PGs will hit 4 times, 1 Guardsman will probably fry himself, and you'll lose 2 or 3 Berzerkers if you've got cover. If not, what's 4/20? Not really an epic fail considering that the Berzerkers are going to bend the Guardsmen over in the following turn, and probably crack a bunch of other tanks if you can pull off a multicharge.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'm curious as to why you think that mechvets are "way down the power scale". Given their low cost for some AV12 and up to 8 BS4 plasma shots with an 18" threat range, it hardly seems bad to me. Especially when there's an entire codex that's struggling with it.

Invisibility is nice, but you don't always get it, and it's only going to work well here with a sorc on a bike with either bikes (2+ cover save!) or spawn. And then you have to add his cost in as well. I don't see how puppet master is much of a to-do, though, as you can't cast it on guys inside of a chimera, which requires finicky setup.

And how did the oblits do their job just by destroying the chimera? That's 140 points for a 50 point transport.

They are way down on the power scale because of Wraith Knights, riptides, pulse bombs, dark reapers with Tau commander, wraith guard with d-scythes, wave serpents. I know that most of these are more expensive than mechvets, but even if you take the same amount of mech vets for the points, I'm still more scared of them.

I don't really understand why you're freaking out about mech vets after having played IG for so long. By the simple fact that it's possible to get more objectives than the other guy you could take them out of action. If chimeras have to move toward your side of the board they get exposed to side shots and the break up of their defensive formation. That will happen in half your games. If you have the same number of objectives, just spend the game hiding and blast their chimeras with lascannons until you get first blood and win.

You have ignored this point as it's been made numerous times. If you destroy a chimera you have an excellent chance of pinning the unit. They can also flee if they lose just 3 guys to the explosion. Besides all the effects on passengers transfer even if the vehicle is gone. So if you shake or stun it, they're firing at BS1 or not shooting at all.

Finally, in a lot of games, I end up killing just as many of my plasma vets with over heats as I do enemies. Non-twin linked plasma fire that's in double tap range will clean out plenty of plasma guns for you. By forcing the vets to fire overwatch you have a good chance to kill them as well due to over heating.

As for puppet master, you can cast that on whatever tanks or other units the IG player has. They will give you a hand in opening the chimeras. As for invisibility, if a unit lands behind the aegis line they will already have a 4+ cover save. With invisibility you're up to 2+. Any cover save will net you a 2+ in fact. As you're dealing with an unwieldy parking lot, that's not that hard to do. Just remember that when setting up terrain.

And the sorcerer is not an additional cost. I'm already taking him as part of my HQ. For some reason you are evaluating mech vets against individual units in the CSM codex instead of in the context of the whole army.

@ obliterators vs. raptors: Oblits deepstrike, and have 2 TL melta shots, while raptors deepstrike with 3 regular melta shots (one of them combi). Either you blow up the chimera, or you're dead before you kill the vets either way (regardless of which models take casualties first), and either way, if you blow up the chimera, you're not needing melta the following turn. Oblits do have an advantage of being able to do more damage to the chimera from a worse scatter, but the raptors have better durability, and are better able to kill the vets inside.

They do the same thing with roughly the same effectiveness in exactly the same way. One can't be good and the other bad, when they're fundamentally the same.

bogalubov wrote: If you destroy a chimera you have an excellent chance of pinning the unit. They can also flee if they lose just 3 guys to the explosion. Besides all the effects on passengers transfer even if the vehicle is gone. So if you shake or stun it, they're firing at BS1 or not shooting at all.

zoat wrote:In my experience all those plasma shots would quickly reduce the number of plasma guns due to Get's Hot. Are you factoring this in?

No, because it's unreliable. The guardsmen only lose a plasma gunner 2/3ds of the time. It's the same reason I'm assuming that deepstrikers more or less hit their target, or that there isn't a screener unit in front of the chimeras, or a million possible other tiny "what ifs?" that would make even thinking about this problem impossible. At some point, you've got to control for variables or else things get so bogged down in semantics, and nit-picked to death that you can't have a reasonable discussion about things.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:There are plenty of things in the CSM dex that don't really worry about Plasma Vets. That's the other thing you are missing. You think that I care about Plasma Vets when I'm running Typhus and over 100 Plague Zombies?

That's certainly true. A 1kson list probably wouldn't care about plasma spam either, I suppose. I guess the question is if you need to take one of a certain kind of list to be able to handle mechvets, or if there is a way you can make any list decent here.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Plasma Vets are only really a threat if you DS something valuable right next to them. Here's a plan - don't do it. Open them up from afar and assault them with Spawn or burn their asses with a Baleflamer.

Umm, yes.

An obvious answer is to not put something that plasma guns are good against near the veterans. The problem is that pretty much everything in the codex (outside of certain units you have to build your whole army around (as above)) cares about being shot at by plasma guns.

As such, either you need a decent piece trade, or you need to blow it up from afar, and then attack it with a unit that doesn't care about plasma guns. Said havoc them and baleflamer them idea is in the OP, but it has problems. Problems with havocs or forgefiends taking a long time to blow up chimeras. Problems with the helldrake needing to be in the right place at the right time, which their mobility issues are going to make a much less than certain thing. Of course, you could attack them with something more certain, like bikes, but then we're back into the world of piece trading.

I suppose one way to handle this would be to just straight gunline them - taking 3 units of autocannon havocs, but that does have scaling issues when you get up to full list-size, and regardless, now you're gunlining...

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Plasma Vets vs. your berzerker blobs aren't really that big a deal - 3 PGs will hit 4 times, 1 Guardsman will probably fry himself, and you'll lose 2 or 3 Berzerkers if you've got cover. If not, what's 4/20?

A squad of 7 berzerkers, though, costs as much as two of these kitted plasma mechvet squads. Assuming that the vets get to single-tap and then double tap, and then fire overwatch as the transport gets charged, and then double-tap again, that's 2 killed by the chimera weapons and few stray lasgun shots, and that's 19 killed by plasma with regular shooting and another 4 with overwatch. And that's before a single vet gets hit with a single chain-axe. You can add in cover (which can be focus fired around), and you can add in plasma burns, and you can add in the fact that berzerkers get further away from their targets when they take casualties, and you can add in a bunch of little variables, but you won't magically make berzerkers be able to win a head-on charge against plasma mechvets.

They're another one of those units like terminators or obliterators that, as you say, is playing into your opponents' hands by bringing them into plasma range.

bogalubov wrote:I don't really understand why you're freaking out about mech vets after having played IG for so long.

If anything, it's because I've played them, I know just how superb of a defensive weapon they are. Not that I'd need that particular experience when you math out the kinds of damage they can do.

But really, mechvets are just an example of the problem. What about a GK player that has several super-cheap chimera plasma henchmen squads while a bunch of dreadknights or draigo (or whatever) is beating up the rest of your army? What if we're talking about a bunch of wave serpents filled with rending shurikens (or whatever), while whatever else eldar works their magic?

Really, this is a problem with mech lists, not just guard. A few relatively cheap scoring units that are great on defense that are holding down their objectives while the rest of their army is attacking you. Put another way, how do you attack good defensive units while you're also being attacked with CSM? Were we talking about some salvo bolter DA behind an aegis, then sure, bale flame the hell out of them. If we were talking about scoring terminators as troops, there's no end of things in the codex that can handle those.

But when it's a combination of cheap, good against MEq/TEq, and in a durable wrapper... it's a lot tougher.

 Ailaros wrote:

If anything, it's because I've played them, I know just how superb of a defensive weapon they are. Not that I'd need that particular experience when you math out the kinds of damage they can do.

But really, mechvets are just an example of the problem. What about a GK player that has several super-cheap chimera plasma henchmen squads while a bunch of dreadknights or draigo (or whatever) is beating up the rest of your army? What if we're talking about a bunch of wave serpents filled with rending shurikens (or whatever), while whatever else eldar works their magic?

Really, this is a problem with mech lists, not just guard. A few relatively cheap scoring units that are great on defense that are holding down their objectives while the rest of their army is attacking you. Put another way, how do you attack good defensive units while you're also being attacked with CSM? Were we talking about some salvo bolter DA behind an aegis, then sure, bale flame the hell out of them. If we were talking about scoring terminators as troops, there's no end of things in the codex that can handle those.

But when it's a combination of cheap, good against MEq/TEq, and in a durable wrapper... it's a lot tougher.

Ah, now we get to the core of your question. By keeping the conversation focused on the veterans in chimeras we never addressed the real question. How does the CSM codex deal with armies that are on the top of the heap right now?

As you've pointed out, the key difference is the unit cost. The CSM is a codex that focuses on small, powerful units that excel in close combat. Xenos and IG/GK codexes have a wide variety of cheap units that can spread out and easily outshoot the CSM. What good is a close assault unit when a wave serpent can scoot 12 inches, unload a barrage of twin-linked D6+1 S7 shots on top of 4 twin linked S6 shots? By introducing a bevy of cheap options that have access to high strength, low AP weaponry, GW has rendered power armor meaningless. Now it's just a tax you have to pay that offers little protection. This is exacerbated with CSM because they're scardy cats and have a chance to book it if they take some casualties.

Dark Angels can bring marines that are just as cheap, stubborn and have ATSKNF and few people take them. That's because of the power armor tax. It is now just too easy to get through armor (both the 3+ and 2+ variety) to make it worthwhile to take those units. Marines bring fewer units than other armies and this leaves them open to being spread out and makes it hard to solve problems through assault.

People still like to play gunlines though, so I made a plan to get my assault units into the gunline. It won't work for you, as you're against Forgeworld units. For those that allow it though, the land raider proteus and spartan assault tank can both take upgrades that make them resistant to melta. So you roll 1d6 for penetration at any distance. So outside of lance weapons, the only way to ensure these beasts' death is with a chain fist (or a lucky lascannon hit). If you get close to punch it, my blood thirster and axe lord chop you next turn. So I advance those puppies up the field and hide behind them. I giggle at missile pod broad sides and plasma guns. When I get close to their line I have plenty of melta to open up the transports before I axe people.

This awesome plan falls apart when I face eldar who don't bother having a base and stay out of my reach while pummeling me. Oh well, can't beat them all.

Yes, it's broader than just guard vets (which I was using as an example), but it still is sort of specific. Anything that's infantry-only can get charged by a huge pile of close combat, or blasted with deepstriking special weapons, or helldrakes, or whatever. It's the mech advantage of needing to waste time to kill the transports that's the problem. And, in some cases, you'd still be fine, right? Like against dark eldar, a squad of 20 CSM with bolters and a pair of plasma guns can force that venom or raider down with a 30" threat range, at a rate of one per turn, and as they get closer, they can assault the guys from the previous downed vehicles. Really, the problem here is with hard transports. Chimeras and wave serpents, and to a slightly lesser extent, things like land raiders and storm ravens (which are also a problem, but they're a lot more expensive, so you have to worry about less in the rest of the list).

Meanwhile, on the other axis, there's the firepower. I wouldn't agree with the idea of their being a power armor tax, as a naked CSM will survive against a wave serpent better for his points than a guardsman (unless you're cowering behind an ADL). The power armor lets you ignore cover against stuff that would kill lesser units dead - you can instead charge out into open ground, and more safely, and take field position. Not to say that there aren't things that can more efficiently take down power armor with volume of fire, but that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is things that are properly good at taking down MEq and TEq. Rending eldar, Plasma vets, prescienced plasma/multimelta henchmen squads, DCA blobs, and the like.

If you make a venn diagram of things that can take good transports, and things that can mow down power armor or terminators, there are definitely things in the middle that fill that somewhat specific set of requirements.

What makes this problem difficult for me is two things. The first is figuring out how to at least break open the transports in a timely fashion, while also being able to survive that dedicated anti-MEq/TEq inside. The second is how to deal with the fact that some of these options are very, very cheap. In other words, how to you deal with what's, let's be honest, is a hard counter to much of the codex withing the confines of the codex itself. If GK have a counter to CSM units with henchmen in chimeras, what does CSM have to counter henchmen in chimeras, kind of thing.

And if you want to know the REAL problem behind this, it's this: These kinds of units are great on defense and cheap enough to give me other things to worry about. How do you go on the offense against this? If cheap, strong defensive units are only counterable by gunlining them, then forget about it. I want to play CSM like CSM, not like tau or to a lesser extent, guard (I already have a guard army after all). How do you achieve an offense against such a good defense with CSM?

Ailaros, the point of my post was that there does not need to be a single unit that answers the threat posted by Plasma Vets. Most of the competitive CSM lists don't run guys in power armor - they usually run Cultists (made fearless by an IC) or Plague Zombies.

There may be no single unit that can handle mechanized infantry. But, Plague Zombies beat the crap out of guardsmen in H2H, and Autocannon Havocs, Lascannon Havocs, Oblits, allied Vendettas and Manticores, Forgefiends...they all have the tools necessary to crack armor. A 1-2 punch is usually necessary to beat mechanized infantry in a single turn. You can crack the Chimera from afar, and assault with something that doesn't give a crap about Plasma.

These toy problems that you've created ignore a lot of factors. If your generalship is solid, then you should be able to concentrate force where you need it (i.e., on the defenders). Assuming that you're running infiltrators, the IG player isn't going to get 3 turns of shooting at you before you come to grips with him. CSM also have some fantastically fast units - Maulerfiends, Spawn, etc. You should be pulling off a T2 charge whether you're using a faster unit (like spawn or maulerfiends) or an infiltrating unit that just gets there quicker.

What makes this problem difficult for me is two things. The first is figuring out how to at least break open the transports in a timely fashion, while also being able to survive that dedicated anti-MEq/TEq inside. The second is how to deal with the fact that some of these options are very, very cheap. In other words, how to you deal with what's, let's be honest, is a hard counter to much of the codex withing the confines of the codex itself. If GK have a counter to CSM units with henchmen in chimeras, what does CSM have to counter henchmen in chimeras, kind of thing.

And if you want to know the REAL problem behind this, it's this: These kinds of units are great on defense and cheap enough to give me other things to worry about. How do you go on the offense against this? If cheap, strong defensive units are only counterable by gunlining them, then forget about it. I want to play CSM like CSM, not like tau or to a lesser extent, guard (I already have a guard army after all). How do you achieve an offense against such a good defense with CSM?

I would say take a pair of Tri-Las Predators. They cost less than a Plasma Mech Vet squad so they're efficient, they work against MC's and hard armour too.

Simply put, I would not present any MEQ/TEQ to them. I'd use Cultists or IG renegade allies and give him targets which his plasmas go to waste on. You incinerated that Cultist? Good job. Here's ten more. His lasguns will get about 1.667 kills at long range and 3.33 up close. When you've got about 20 thats barely any loss at all. Plus, Cultists are cheap as chips so you're not paying through your nostrils to deal with the Vets.

If you want to stick to Marines you could shove a character with a good invulnerable save at the front of the unit so you can absorb some hits, or simply stay away from their rapid fire zone and utilise your superior bolters to whittle them down.

Failing that, I'd saturate his target priorities. Daemon Prince, Marines, Termies, but that does lead to inefficiency.

I could be talking out my arse. Having to deal with DD's interface on a tablet that auto corrects like you wouldn't believe and fights you when you just want to edit or start a new line has affected my sanity during this post.

My answer to any annoying plasma thing in various loyalist metal boxes has been bikers. I run an all khorne/CC army, so the few bits of shooting I get are generally plasma pistols on my berserkers and melta's/plasma on my bikes. A 5 strong bike squad with a pair of plasmaguns does wonders for me in most games removing pesky transports, as well as providing a solid CC unit.

But broaden it out a bit. plague zombies may be good against melta vets, but are they good against guard? Hardly. Moreover, what if you're not already running a plague zombie CSM army? Do you have to change your whole army over to handle this problem?

And you can't just say "be a better general and these problems will go away". If I was a better general than my opponent, I wouldn't need to bother asking a question like this. Also, I don't like the advice of "play against worse people" that that statement implies. I'd rather assume that my opponents are equal in skill level to me, as this makes player skill a control variable. As such, anything that I do in my movement phase can be undone in my opponent's movement phase (with exceptions of course, but still).

Not to say there aren't possibly fieldcraft solutions, but that's sort of out of scope of what I'm looking for at the moment. And no, infiltrating a bunch of guys forward won't stop the problem of enough defensive firepower to table your army, or at least killing off the most threatening things to to the force concentration capabilities of cheap mechanized units.

Interestingly enough, there's a force concentration problem here as well. It's a lot easier for 4 chimeras to stay together and focus their firepower than it is to get 30 berzerkers all in the same place at the same time. Without, of course, lethally bunching up against template weapons. Having a couple of obliterators drop against your opponents' entire army, or at least a well-ordered piece of it is just suicide. Likewise, 250 points of maulerfiends making it somewhere turn 2 is very likely just going to end up with dead maulerfiends.

That is, after all, the benefit of defense - you can always concentrate all of your forces, and then the attacker has to struggle just to break even with local force superiority, which they likely won't achieve.

No, because it's unreliable. The guardsmen only lose a plasma gunner 2/3ds of the time. It's the same reason I'm assuming that deepstrikers more or less hit their target, or that there isn't a screener unit in front of the chimeras, or a million possible other tiny "what ifs?" that would make even thinking about this problem impossible. At some point, you've got to control for variables or else things get so bogged down in semantics, and nit-picked to death that you can't have a reasonable discussion about things.

To some extent I agree. If we we are talking 6 shots. Your argument however seems to be about those vets shooting a lot. Double tapping, snapping, double tapping and then snapping again has been mentioned. That's some 24 shots, right? At this point you will almost certainly have lost one plasmagunner (About 94% of the time, this is easy to calculate), most likely also a second (math much more complex. Can't be bothered) and perhaps even the third.

In fact, snap shots is a desperate gamble pointwise. As you say there is a good chance of loosing a 22pt plasma gunner (49% chance that all survive, 2/3 losses is the expected average if not taking into account that sometimes a single gunner gets two hits), while at the same time the chance of missing all shots is 41%, which is probably higher than most would expect.

Also, there are no ifs about Get's hot. It will be there every time!