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Number 1: Tournament and Friendly, its all right i guess, however it does bring up a sore point in my area.

Several long term SM players have been collecting/playing for several years and have multiple units of everything in the codex. Everytime a new Codex comes out they switch books for the next best thing. One player has a personal color scheme so it's not that bad just a little annoying. What really chaps my butt is the Ultramarines guy that switched to Space wolves and now Dark Angels. I've only lost once to the Ultra Angels, but it's still annoying, he even has that huge jetbike guy painted blue with Ultramarine symbols on him. I do know they have lost all theme painting points at every tournament.

Number 2: Tournament No, Friendly Yes

Number 3: Tournament No, Friendly Yes

 fartherthanfar wrote:
whoever cant remember that a model has certain stats even after clearly mentionning it to him before the battle starts and him having the option to reconfirm during battle before making any and all important decisions are made shouldnt play Warhammer in my opinion.

Do you understand common courtesy?
I might think I remember what you said that green missile launcher was, but be wrong. And what you decide is an "important decision" isn't the same as what I deem it.
Seriously, WYSIWYG is a polite way to play.

WYSIWYG is just another way for Games-workshop to force us to buy more models and more paint and more bitz and pieces.

GW doesn't have WYSIWYG as a rule. In fact, iirc it wasn't enforced that strictly at GW events.
It's a player enforced rule because it's the polite way to play.

what happens when the models isnt made?!!!
WYSIWYG is fully impossible in those situations, there is no choice but to do "counts as".
Oh no! Then your opponent will get confused and not be able to tell by visual what your guys are using as weapons, forcing him to..... ask question!!!!! THE HORROR!!!!!

If I point at something egg shaped and say that it's a Mycetic Spore, then I'm doing counts-as right.
If I'm pointing at a hormagaunt and saying that's a Mycetic Spore, I'm doing counts-as wrong.

sorry for the drama but it really is that silly.

No, it's not.

yes it is nice when its WYSIWYG, but making it a requisite is stupid

Unless I know you well, I only play against WYSIWYG armies.

lets make a rule that your armie has to be not only painted but up to a certain standard of quality of paintjob to be accepted, also that heroes need to stand out in the unit for it to be easier to know which one is the heroes, and champions, and special weapons holders, these all must wear some special colours to stand them out. Also every models with multiple wounds need to have special wound markers on the base.

Heroes standing out, Sargents standing out, and special weapons models standing out (with their gun) is WYSIWYG.

The point is these extra touches are nice but should not be mandatory as simply asking the questions will give you all you need to know.

And asking questions can give away my plan. And it's rude of you to assume that

If you forget and dont ask the questions then that is your mistake, not your opponents.

is true - perhaps (as is likely) I confused that green missile launcher (that was supposed to be a flamer) with that green heavy bolter (that was supposed to be a meltagun) and moved my Land Raider away from it... only for the Heavy Melta to ruin my day.

Obviously try to make it as close as you can but a few light innacuracies should be accepted.

So it's okay when you say it is, but too much is bad?

lets not defend this by saying that someone will try to go too far and use Tyranids to represent Space Marines.
yes there should be a limit but a few weapons not quite being the right ones should not be a problem. if you got the right model but the weapons are a bit off then that should not be a problem.

Yes, it should. A marine with a flamer pistol is a completely different model than a marine with a plasma pistol.

I find the Chain axe as a power fist unreasonable in a ruleset which has explicit rules for 'power axes'.

'Counts as' is for unique models which have something which doesn't have rules so this is the 'next best thing'. Example: A 2nd edition ork with a Plasma Gun 'count as' a mek boy with a KMB.

'Proxies' Are when you use a model with a clear weapon and a valid set of rules, as another model with a totally different set of rules. Example: A Ork with a Big Shoota and trying to play it as a rokkit launcha.

In competitive play, where decisions are being made under a timed scenario and lots of things are in play, having to 'remember' something extra is an unfair burden regardless how small you think it is. If I 'OFFER' to allow you to proxy, that is different than 'IMPOSING' your proxy upon me. In a Tourney, you shouldn't IMPOSE anything on people.

If you have a custom model or conversion, you should play it rule-wise as close to the appropriate gear as you can, which in this scenario would probably be a 'power axe'. If the model is too confusing because you have a model with invalid wargear due to your edition change, those models might need to shelf-sit from tourney play.

nkelsch wrote:
I find the Chain axe as a power fist unreasonable in a ruleset which has explicit rules for 'power axes'.

There are also explicit rules for a Chain Axe.

I would allow all 3 examples, unfortunately some people (in my experience, a very small, but vocal, minority) would kick up a fuss for no good reason, however so long as you explain them all clearly you should be all good, after all it looks good, its different, and its flavourful. And its not like its hard to follow what's what

Wow, mr Rigel took my message personally.
I did not mean to offend so I apologize.
I kinda follow the sticks and stone attitude personaly.

I realize that a guy with a missile launcher is a very different dude than a guy with a flamer and having nothing but guys with flamers as models in 4 different teams while you are proxying them as being 1 flamer 1 melta 1 missile launcher and 1 plasma is confusing. and that would definetely be something I would be against.

but if you simplify it and say to you opponent "listen, all flamer are missile launchers, I have no flamers" its a question of being polite as mr rigel mentionned.
if you are to proxy, make it as comfortable for your opponent as possible.

just like I dont use hormagaunts, since they suck in this book, so all gaunt are termagaunts, if you see a gaunt it means its a termagaunt, even if it doesnt have a gun and has claws instead. I just pound that line in my opponents head before the game starts and the only reason for him to make the mistake is terrible memory. I sometimes remind him across the game to make sure he knows.

as mentionned in my previous quote, its ok to proxy as long as you dont go overboard (ex: dont use nids to represent space marines, dont mix up proxies of same models representing different things, etc) , make it clean, make it easy to understand, make sure the opponent wont make an easy mistake due to your proxying. and the only reason to object is lack of flexibility or whining for no reason other than whining.

this be my view on it.

Your problem is that you're missing a critical difference between "can I play against non-WYSIWYG models" and "am I obligated to play against non-WYSIWYG models". You don't get to just declare that your proxies are simple enough that I should be able to keep track of it and expect me to accept that decision.

I dont see why thats a problem since, if its clear and simple to understand, the opponent should not have issues remembering what is proxied and how its proxied. he might be forced to deal with it but that kinda like saying hes forced to deal with you breathing loudly when you concentrate or something, sure its an extra little thing to deal with but shouldnt be an actual issue (of course as long as the proxying done well enough, yes I know that can be very relative, perhaps light rules can be offered).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
perhaps this is why I dont do tournaments. I play to have fun, not to win, sure winning is fun, but not at the expense of fun.

Lack of flexibility is not fun... to me at least.

Do not "inconvenience" your opponent.
Why could you not just model a melta instead of a flamer for instance, rather than count as?

I like the CSM used as BA but it would be strange if IG or Tau made use of the codex.

It seems like the lack of effort on our part, we are expecting our opponent to compensate = rude.

I had an all black primed army my opponent commented he had trouble telling what the models carried (reasonable observation). I had a least some paint on all the heavy or special weapons next time we played and he thanked me.

I guess I am saying if you expect me to accept your percieved laziness (rather than a ton of converting effort) I may give it a pass. I played a guy where many models had no arms: never again. I need something decent to look at, at least chess has a minimum standard.

 Talizvar wrote:
Do not "inconvenience" your opponent.
Why could you not just model a melta instead of a flamer for instance, rather than count as?

I like the CSM used as BA but it would be strange if IG or Tau made use of the codex.

It seems like the lack of effort on our part, we are expecting our opponent to compensate = rude.

I had an all black primed army my opponent commented he had trouble telling what the models carried (reasonable observation). I had a least some paint on all the heavy or special weapons next time we played and he thanked me.

I guess I am saying if you expect me to accept your percieved laziness (rather than a ton of converting effort) I may give it a pass. I played a guy where many models had no arms: never again. I need something decent to look at, at least chess has a minimum standard.

Agreed! I have played games against armless armies and it is very difficult. At least build the models if you are going to play. Now maybe a game or two with a good friend before he wants to make the commitment to a certain loadout or just encourage magnetizing. I am currently working on an all codexes army, but am making efforts to at least have the specialty weapons (i.e., plasma guns, meltas, flamers, etc) on hand attached to models for when I want to change up the army. And of course, HQ models for each respective army is being built/bought.

I must say that committing to a color and holding someone to a standard that a blue army must be Ultramarines is a little petty IMO. WYSIWYG down to the paint job is a little harsh but to each his own. Now, that said, what I do hate is an army comprised of multiple colored squads that detract from the game. But a uniformly painted army is ok in my book. New codexes come out and full army repaints are sometimes not feasible. Especially if the army is already nicely painted.

I was discussing doing Night lords BA since the new Apoc book has sons of the primarch rules. Guy I was talking to got into a fuss saying because it's the BA book, no matter the theme, I had to take sanguinius. I then looked and simply said that their is no way to take an honest night lords army without jump troops, and a piece of fluff isn't game breaking.

 dreamakuma wrote:
I was discussing doing Night lords BA since the new Apoc book has sons of the primarch rules. Guy I was talking to got into a fuss saying because it's the BA book, no matter the theme, I had to take sanguinius. I then looked and simply said that their is no way to take an honest night lords army without jump troops, and a piece of fluff isn't game breaking.

Yeah sometimes an army's rules don't line up with the models you like... At the end of the day when we are spending hundreds of $$$'s on plastic toys, you have to be happy with what you got. Starting new armies for each codex is exactly what GW wants us to do. But there is no rule saying that you can't do 40K on a budget. Magnetizing is difficult but can be your best ally when wanting to ensure you can be WYSIWYG with any army.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I have a Legion of the Damned army from 2nd Ed, built using the WD Chapter Approved rules published for 2nd Ed. So, which codex do I use to play them in 6th? SM, BA, DA, SW, or CSM, as the mode takes me. The models are always WYSIWYG, the army is always priced correctly, and my opponent is always informed beforehand so there is no confusion. Have never had an issue in tournaments nor in friendly pick-up games. Mostly get complements on the nearly 20 year old army still looking great. The metal Dreadnought gets the most attention, with all the bones and chains I added back in the day. The old Mk1 Rhinos still look too small, but no one complains. When I get them done, I'll be adding 3 scratch built Mk1 Land Raiders to the army, just because I can.

If you don't want to play me because today I felt like howling at the moon and throwing down with my pre-built SW-ish Legios Los Mortes, no worries. Someone else will.

SJ

Pics??

Generally, wargear counts as is okay in virtually all situations, except very specific tournaments.

Examples:

My Khorne Berzerkers are modeled with swords and axes, but they are all swords - totally cool.

My 10 Paladins are armed with 2 Psycannons and 2 Psilencers, but they are all Psycannons - totally cool

My Dark Vengeance Chaos Lord is armed with an Axe of Blind Fury - totally cool

This is the way GW intended the game to be played. And with the banning of bits sales, I expect it to be the fully
accepted norm going forwarded. Just make sure you have a wargear discussion with your opponent before
the game.


Hope that helps