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Hi guys, I know this can be a bit of a sore topic for some people but I wanted to get peoples opinions on what is acceptable when it comes to counts as and wysiwyg... basically I have a few questions

1. Is it ok to use 1 codex rules for an army made out of models from a different codex so long as wargear etc is accurate?
(Eg. A full army of World Eaters Chaos Terminator models using deathwing rules)

2. Is it ok to use a special characters rules for a converted model?
(Eg. This converted space marine counts as vulkan)

3. Is it ok to use the rules for 1 weapon to represent a converted weapon?
(Eg. This berzerker champion with double handed chainaxe counts as having a power fist)

I understand at some point it becomes unacceptable to not follow "WYSIWYG" but at what point?

I would love to hear from the general public and if possible any TOs

Clarity and the "rule of cool" are the most important here.
That army is nicely converted to convey the world eaters feel while still pretty much WYSIWYG ? Fine by me
That character is a converted captain? Does it have the original character's wargear represented on it one way or another? If yes and you tell me about it it'll be fine.
That champion stands out? You'll remind me of his wargear if I ask you? Then fine (by me!) too

As you probably guessed there are no rules for this.
Really the only one that can answer this is your opponent or TO.

Personally as long as you make it very clear what each part repressents, I'd have no problems with any of the above.

I find that being up front with your opponent, and maintaining your "count as" consistantly across your army (i.e., all double-headed chain axes are treated as, paid for as, and used as Power Fists), then you will have less issues playing your models with a different codex.

SJ

I would say technically none of them are ok.. even in apocalypse where basically anything is ok and to an extent no limit on points or models they still say models should be modelled correctly with appropriate wargear. In saying this, friendly games with regular opponent shouldn't matter too much especially if you show them your army list and explain the changes you have made. However, this can quickly get out of hand if you are talking about multiple conversions so I would say sticking to wysiwyg would be a much safer idea. Also running a deathwing army with chaos models can be equally confusing not to mention all the changes it would make not just to your armywide rules and units but also your allies, etc. As for space marines running a character or even a whole chapter and saying it counts as vulkan or salamanders I have a feeling things will be cleared up a lot within the next couple weeks.

Consistency and simplicity are the key here.

If I need to keep more then 3 things in mind when looking at your army, you've gone too far. Keep it simple

If A=B, it needs to be that way for your whole army. Keep it consistent.

When I see a marine with a giant double-headed chain axe, I know he's going to be bad news in CC, unwieldy and cutting open tanks. That's what I see. He's got the rules for a power fist? That what I get. While not strict WYSWYG, it follows the spirit.

As with any WYSWYG question, you need to talk to the guys you are going to play against. Personally, I'm quite forgiving of others (while being strict with my own army)

One of the reasons I ask is I would love to run a full khorne terminator army using forge world bits the whole way. But the CSM codex never gave us an option. Therefore I want to write a deathwing list and just use the khorne models, I would make sure all weapons are represented correctly with thunder hammers and storm shields etc etc it would just be world eaters armor not deathwing. But I would hate to go to all that effort to be told no lol

Well legally it wouldn't work in standard games unless it was entirely made up of units from the dark angels codex.. as a separate unit for just using in apocalyse it could work but then technically you could just run them as khorne Tetminators from the chaos codex, or just use dark angel Tetminators anyway. It might not seem like a big deal but then you start seeing people running big necton royal courts consisting of all chaos lords and you start seeing the problem. If you really wanted a termie army why not just run a couple squads of cultists or something then max out on termies and lords? Or make a deathwong army and paint em as fallen and save the fw khorne termies for your actual chaos army?

Sinny! wrote:
Well legally it wouldn't work in standard games unless it was entirely made up of units from the dark angels codex.. as a separate unit for just using in apocalyse it could work but then technically you could just run them as khorne Tetminators from the chaos codex, or just use dark angel Tetminators anyway. It might not seem like a big deal but then you start seeing people running big necton royal courts consisting of all chaos lords and you start seeing the problem. If you really wanted a termie army why not just run a couple squads of cultists or something then max out on termies and lords? Or make a deathwong army and paint em as fallen and save the fw khorne termies for your actual chaos army?

Sinny If you read the OPs posts you will see that his models will represent untits from the DA codex.

No problems for fielding this , they will just be covered in gore instead of secret shame!

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
Clarity and the "rule of cool" are the most important here.

I built my company commander with a powerfist and the bionic arm with the sword. Will I ever use them both? Heck no. I simply make my models either what I will use frequently or what just looks coolest. As long as you pay the correct points and can remember the wargear, people I know don't have problems with wysiwyg.

Bob Marley has the right answer, clarity and rule of cool are important.

1. I would allow this, having the correct wargear is even better.
2. Yes, why not? Home-made models are awesome.

3. That might make the game confusing.
People often decide their tactics on what they see on the field, so this might give them the wrong information.

Note that the rules of 40k do not allow anything other than strict WYSIWYG (since they never grant permission to do anything else), so any "counts as"/conversions/etc are entirely subject to the approval of the people you're playing with. Most people are pretty tolerant of "reasonable" models, but you need to ask the specific people you want to use your models against.

 Juggalo17 wrote:
1. Is it ok to use 1 codex rules for an army made out of models from a different codex so long as wargear etc is accurate?
(Eg. A full army of World Eaters Chaos Terminator models using deathwing rules)

Yes. This is not even up for debate. How a model is painted is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that its weapons and other equipment are correct.

(This is assuming you are playing a complete rules-legal army from the DA codex, just with different shoulder pads and paint on your models.)

2. Is it ok to use a special characters rules for a converted model?
(Eg. This converted space marine counts as vulkan)

That depends. If the model represents all of the character's equipment then it should be fine. If the model just looks kind of like them and stuff is missing or incorrect people may be less tolerant.

3. Is it ok to use the rules for 1 weapon to represent a converted weapon?
(Eg. This berzerker champion with double handed chainaxe counts as having a power fist)

Again, depends entirely on personal preferences. In this case the "counts as" weapon would need to be absolutely clear: the "power axefist" would have to be significantly different from all standard chainaxes in your army, and all of the special chainaxes would have to be power fists. And many people have a quota for how much of that kind of stuff they're willing to tolerate. Using giant axes for power fists might be ok by itself, but if you're also counting your special flamers as melta guns, your lasers borrowed from another game as missile launchers, and your power armor on 40mm bases as terminators then your opponents may justifiably not feel like having to keep up with all of it.

Generally, most people will be fine with your conversions. Bob Marley really nailed the answer the vast majority of players would give.

If you're going to a tournament it would be best to ask the TO, and in pick-up games if someone has an issue with it I'd just find another opponent. Life is to short to waste valuable gaming time on that type of person.

Often when you're starting out then using count-as is the only way to go, I know when I finally get round to fielding my guard army that many will be High Elves or Necrons. As long as you say that unit X is Y eg "my cron immortals are vets, the AB is a ...." Etc etc your opponent will know what you're running.
When you have the models I always play rule of cool with conversions. I make an awesome model in my head, then on the table, then work out "well this could be this, that looks a bit like that, yadda yadda yadda, that's my loadout". WYSIWYG is often best but an appropriate count-as isn't so bad

1. Yes, provided this isn't deliberately confusing. It only gets really wonky when allies come in. Basically, your detachments should always be distinct and different, even when one or more are counts-as.

2. Generally, yes. My Vulkan is exactly as you say. There's no reason at all that a custom-built character like this can't also be WYSIWYG. (Mine is.)

3. For the most part, yes. Don't be deliberately confusing, and make sure to make things exceptionally clear for your opponent.

(Incidentally, I am a TO, and I'd be willing to accept all these, within reason, within a tournament.)

I'm good with 1 and 2. If you were playing me and only that axe wasn't WYSIWYG, still fine. But IMO you've drained the well. I'd expect everything else to be accurate. That HIWPI.

On the subject of WYSIWYG, how are conversions seen in tournies? EG, 5 converted Crypteks from the Deathmark box + some spare staffs.

 IHateNids wrote:
On the subject of WYSIWYG, how are conversions seen in tournies? EG, 5 converted Crypteks from the Deathmark box + some spare staffs.

It's *always* a case of "check with the TO first". There are a number of typical things that apply, but these aren't exactly guaranteed:

1) if you check with the TO beforehand, you're more likely to get the a-OK (or get a chance to fix it) than if you check on the day.
2) units that don't have models, that have models but not sold as a unit, that are hard to come by or are expensive are all more likely to get accepted than units that have pretty standard models available.
3) make sure your models carry all the kit they're supposed to, or at the very least any non-standard upgrades.
4) make sure the stand-ins can't be confused with anything else you've brought.
5) get as close a size comparison as you can and also put the models on the right base size.

With all that considered, as long as your Crypteks are all actually using staffs and look different enough from any actual Deathmarks you have, your conversions sound ok.

I have written a deathwing list that is:
Belial + 7 th/ss terminators in a crusader
Chapter master + 7 th/ss terminators in a crusader
2 dreads in drop pods

I plan to get forge world world eaters terminators and give them th/ss loadouts and convert a couple of zuphor models to be the HQ characters. Then some chaos dreads and chuck some spikes on the drop pods. I would make sure all models have correct wargear so WYSIWYG is not an issue. Only thing is using chaos models with deathwing rules....

Would anyone have a problem with this? For sone reason my brother hates tge idea

My final thoughts on this matter.
My brother has big chaos marine and daemon armies and he wants to have an elite army made up of terminators, dreads in pods, landraider crusaders, etc. and since you obviously cant make that with the chaos codex he is going to make a deathwing army using the dark angels codex but use forgeworld khorne terminators, and chaos up the dreads and landraiders etc to make it chaos.
I dont really care too much except i think its a lil silly, I really like following wysiwyg, My brother claims that everyone runs there chaos armies using the space marine codex, dark angels, blood angels, etc, etc. and I think chaos players should stop being butthurt.
If you agree and think its ok then in theory is it ok for me to use his chaos codex to make a list with cultists, marines, terminators, and use my cadians, purifiers, grey knight terminators models? and take some things not allowed in my codex like maulerfiends and helldrakes but convert them up to look grey knightish for the god emperor?
Honestly I don't see any difference between what he is trying to do and what I will do with my grey knights. and I think running grey knights along with maulerfiends and helldrakes is dumb as hell so in theory what he is doing is dumb as hell too?

 Juggalo17 wrote:
Would anyone have a problem with this?

Yes! The Heresy started in 006.M31
The Land Raider Crusader was developed in 645.M39
Basically your force can't use Crusaders for another 7000 years.

Nor did they use Storm Shields back then..

Sinny! wrote:
My final thoughts on this matter.
My brother has big chaos marine and daemon armies and he wants to have an elite army made up of terminators, dreads in pods, landraider crusaders, etc. and since you obviously cant make that with the chaos codex he is going to make a deathwing army using the dark angels codex but use forgeworld khorne terminators, and chaos up the dreads and landraiders etc to make it chaos.
I dont really care too much except i think its a lil silly, I really like following wysiwyg, My brother claims that everyone runs there chaos armies using the space marine codex, dark angels, blood angels, etc, etc. and I think chaos players should stop being butthurt.
If you agree and think its ok then in theory is it ok for me to use his chaos codex to make a list with cultists, marines, terminators, and use my cadians, purifiers, grey knight terminators models? and take some things not allowed in my codex like maulerfiends and helldrakes but convert them up to look grey knightish for the god emperor?
Honestly I don't see any difference between what he is trying to do and what I will do with my grey knights. and I think running grey knights along with maulerfiends and helldrakes is dumb as hell so in theory what he is doing is dumb as hell too?

It's your hobby you can do what you like.
And his idea *IS* WYSIWYG.

I get its a hobby and that people do whatever they want. Im not debating that.
I dont have a problem with it even if it comes across as i do, all im trying to do is create debate.
Yes its a hobby but its also a game with rules.
Like lets play monopoly I will buy the 2 crappy brown properties then decide I like dark blue ones better so just play them as "counts as"

Sinny! wrote:
I get its a hobby and that people do whatever they want. Im not debating that.
I dont have a problem with it even if it comes across as i do, all im trying to do is create debate.
Yes its a hobby but its also a game with rules.
Like lets play monopoly I will buy the 2 crappy brown properties then decide I like dark blue ones better so just play them as "counts as"

No that's not what he's doing. He is just playing a DA army, with cooler models. Would you complain if he bought some "proper" Deathwing Knights but painted them red? I doubt it.

He is breaking absolutely *ZERO* rules.

Sinny! wrote:
I get its a hobby and that people do whatever they want. Im not debating that.
I dont have a problem with it even if it comes across as i do, all im trying to do is create debate.
Yes its a hobby but its also a game with rules.
Like lets play monopoly I will buy the 2 crappy brown properties then decide I like dark blue ones better so just play them as "counts as"

And not a single one of those rules requires you to paint or model your guys a specific way.
You will fail to find a wysiwyg reference in the rulebook.

I have a Legion of the Damned army from 2nd Ed, built using the WD Chapter Approved rules published for 2nd Ed. So, which codex do I use to play them in 6th? SM, BA, DA, SW, or CSM, as the mode takes me. The models are always WYSIWYG, the army is always priced correctly, and my opponent is always informed beforehand so there is no confusion. Have never had an issue in tournaments nor in friendly pick-up games. Mostly get complements on the nearly 20 year old army still looking great. The metal Dreadnought gets the most attention, with all the bones and chains I added back in the day. The old Mk1 Rhinos still look too small, but no one complains. When I get them done, I'll be adding 3 scratch built Mk1 Land Raiders to the army, just because I can.

If you don't want to play me because today I felt like howling at the moon and throwing down with my pre-built SW-ish Legios Los Mortes, no worries. Someone else will.

SJ

1) As long as all the wargear is correctly represented then that should be fine. It should also be worth noting that the Dark Angels codex provides rules for playing as dark angels successor chapters. If your opponent has a problem with you playing them as dark angels, it should still be acceptable to use them as "such and such" successor chapter who paint their armour like this.

2)If you converted that model to specifically represent that character (and it contains all of the required wargear) then yes, that's how a lot of special characters have to be made.

3)Personally I'm a lot stricter about WYSIWYG. A two handed chainaxe counting as a chainfist or an eviscerator, then sure. As a power fist? That's a little bit of a grey area.

Where to draw the line for WYSIWYG? For me, if it doesn't look like it would function as the item you intended it to then no. Similarly, if it looks like (or is difficult to tell apart from) a piece of equipment that you are using in your army that has a different function, then no.

It sucks that there are lots of different loadout options for units/vehicles, and that you either have to magnetise everything or be handicapped by what you built, but for me that's part of the fun of the game. Building a list from the models you have available.

Technically if someone wanted to be a dick they could call you out on any model thats not GW issue (i.e. unmodified or anything remotely related to customized). Are there people that cold? not that i know of. Kitbashing and conversions are the biggest draw the to the game for most people. i'd sell my stuff the instant i learned it became a norm to never use customized models.

"Counts as" is up to the opponent or TO. Really depends on what it is youre using. If its a heavy conversion but still looks like what youre trying to run it as, usually noone cares. Its when its something off the wall like using a Gundam model for a Riptide when people start going "Oh hell no!" lol
Typically though long as it isnt a horrible model or a cheap toy replacement, noone will care.

The rules provide for "variant" armies of a given codex.

WYSIWYG needs to be adhered to.

"Rule of cool" helps since obvious work went into it so it will not seem like trying to gain advantage.

If 100% GW models were used I would bet money the army would be allowed in games day (maybe not seen in a WD).

An opponent is at a tiny disadvantage when a "counts as" is used so WYSIWYG becomes a necessity rather than a "vs".

whoever cant remember that a model has certain stats even after clearly mentionning it to him before the battle starts and him having the option to reconfirm during battle before making any and all important decisions are made shouldnt play Warhammer in my opinion.

WYSIWYG is just another way for Games-workshop to force us to buy more models and more paint and more bitz and pieces.

If Warhammer was meant to be played WYSIWYG then games-workshop should make sure to actually make the models for all the weapons/heroes/troops/vehicules for their game.
what happens when the models isnt made?!!!
WYSIWYG is fully impossible in those situations, there is no choice but to do "counts as".
Oh no! Then your opponent will get confused and not be able to tell by visual what your guys are using as weapons, forcing him to..... ask question!!!!! THE HORROR!!!!!


sorry for the drama but it really is that silly.


yes it is nice when its WYSIWYG, but making it a requisite is stupid
its also nice to play against well painted armies.
lets make a rule that your armie has to be not only painted but up to a certain standard of quality of paintjob to be accepted, also that heroes need to stand out in the unit for it to be easier to know which one is the heroes, and champions, and special weapons holders, these all must wear some special colours to stand them out. Also every models with multiple wounds need to have special wound markers on the base.

The point is these extra touches are nice but should not be mandatory as simply asking the questions will give you all you need to know.
If you forget and dont ask the questions then that is your mistake, not your opponents.
Obviously try to make it as close as you can but a few light innacuracies should be accepted.

lets not defend this by saying that someone will try to go too far and use Tyranids to represent Space Marines.
yes there should be a limit but a few weapons not quite being the right ones should not be a problem. if you got the right model but the weapons are a bit off then that should not be a problem.